Converting BH 45lc to 45acp

[pzlehr]

I know Ruger has outfits where they suppy the 45lc cylinder and the 45acp cylinder. But if you have the 45lc can you buy the 45acp cylinder from Ruger and have the same set-up? I have read where if you have these conversions that only one of the cylinders will fit well and the other will not so that accuracy is good with one cylinder and not the other.

Has Ruger ever made a 40S&W/10mm BH??

Thanks,
Chuck

 

[Robb Barnes]

I just sent an old model 45 Colt Blackhawk off to John Gallagher along with an old modle 45 ACP cylinder to be fit to the gun. When I bought it I just made sure the OAL of the ACP cylinder was longer than the 45 LC cylinder.

Ruger made a few 40 S&W Vaqueros if I am not mistaken and there was one run of Blackhawk Buckeye's that had 38-40/10mm cylinders I believe.

 

[Hastings]

I have a 5-1/2" cch 45colt Vaquero. About a year ago I purchased a 45acp cylinder from a fellow forum member. I had him mic it for me to make sure it would fit, prior to purchasing it. When I got it, I couldn't get the cylinder into the frame window. It was just slightly to long overall, but the dimensions critical for correct cylinder gap were correct. I used a sharpening stone to flat hone the face of the ratchet teeth at the rear of the cylinder. It didn't take much. Once it fit in with enough play to allow smooth rotation and easy insertion and removal, I smoothed up the ratchet teeth with a smaller hand stone. It took about fifteen minutes to do, and it functioned perfectly when I was done.

I later reamed the throats on both the 45acp and 45colt cylinders to .4525 and I am very happy with the set-up. Prior to reaming the throats, the 45acp cylinder produced tighter groups than the 45colt, with poi being similar to same weight 45colt bullets. Now they both shoot nice groups with the same poi for identical bullet weights.

I just recently picked up a stainless steel Vaquero 45colt with 4-5/8" barrel, and the 45acp cylinder fits it just as well as if fits the other Vaquero. All three cylinders works perfectly in both guns.

I should add that I load the same bullet (255gr lead flat nose hard-cast) in 45colt, 45acp, and 45autorim cases to the same 950fps velocity, and it works great in both Vaqueros and a S&W 22-4 Thunder Ranch Revolver.

The cylinder install was pretty painless in my case. Of course, if you aren't careful with the stoning, or if the cylinder is to short that shimming it will create to large a cylinder gap, you could be out the cost of the cylinder. As long as you mic the cylinder face to cylinder pin hole face (for cylinder gap), overall length (for fit in frame) and ratchet face to rear of cylinder, and these dimensions match up or are slightly bigger than the ones on the original cylinder, is should be okay. Bear in mind that you don't want to remove much from the ratchet face or it will mess with the cycling. Also, if the ratchet teeth have burs, or the edges are to sharp after you stone it, it can bind the action. I gently eased the edges to match the edges on the original cylinder.

Good luck with the install, if you give it a try. It makes shooting factory ammo out of a 45 Vaquero much less expensive. Not as good as reloading 45colt, but better than the $35 to $45 a box that factory 45colt goes for in my neck of the woods.

 

[quiet-wyatt]

I should add that I load the same bullet (255gr lead flat nose hard-cast) in 45colt, 45acp, and 45autorim cases to the same 950fps velocity, and it works great in both Vaqueros and a S&W 22-4 Thunder Ranch Revolver.

So the 45 AutoRim will work in the 45ACP cylinder?
Thanks...

 

[Hastings]

Sorry if my comment caused confusion. The 45autorim will fit in the 45acp cylinder, but there isn't enough space between the rear of the cylinder and the face of the frame to allow the extra thick case rim of the 45autorim to work. The rims are much thicker than 45acp to allow them to work in double action revolvers that normally require moonclipped 45acp ammo. The moonclip holds the cases close enough to the firing pin to allow ignition, as well as allowing proper ejection. You can put a 45autorim in a Vaquero chamber, but don't try rotating the cylinder. It will not rotate past the loading gate opening.

What I meant, but poorly articulated as usual, was that I use reload the same .452 dia. 255 gr. hardcast bullet into all three cases - 45colt, 45acp, and 45autorim. I shoot the 45colt and 45acp in the Vaquero, and the 45acp and the 45autorim in a S&W 22-4 45acp double action revolver. The same bullet turns in great accuracy and no appreciable leading in all three applications - in my experience.

I will say this about the 45acp cylinder. It ended up being just a novelty for me. Once I found a 45colt load that the Vaquero liked, I pretty much stuck to that. If you don't reload, the 45acp cylinder would make sense so you could shoot the less expensive 45acp ammo. If you reload, the 45acp is much less versatile than the 45colt. Even in the S&W revolver, I prefer 45autorim over 45acp. Moonclips are handy for the range, but I still prefer to pocket a handfull of loose shells, or slip them into shell loops on a belt, than pack around a bunch of full or half moonclips full of ammo.

 

[jpickar]

You do not need moon clips in a single action.

You can either have the back of the cyliner cut down .030 to have 45 auto rim fit or you can countersink each chamber .030 so the 45 auto rim will fit and the 45 auto will fit also.

john

 

[Hastings]

I wasn't suggesting moon clips in a single action revolver. That would be silly. You can shoot 45acp shells in a DA S&W revolver if you replace the firing pin with a longer one, but you risk piercing the firing pin occasionally. If you had the rear of a SA Ruger cylinder cut down, or recessed to allow the extra depth of a 45autorim's rim, 45acp cartridges would sit much further away from the rear face of the frame, and the firing pin may not reliably ignite the primers.

I guess you could then put a longer firing pin into the gun, but this would affect 45colt use, most likely piercing the primers and causing possible severe blowback thru the firing pin hole and around the rear of the case head. Why bother. 45acp works great, and 45colt works great. Plus, 45autorim is not that common, or cheap. The only benefit 45autorim offers, in my opinion, is in a 45acp double action revolver - if you dislike moonclips. This is what I was attempting to say, but I guess it came out jumbled.

 

[jpickar]

Yes, I understand what you are talking about with the single action now.

You do not need a longer firing pin in DA revolver. The chamber will still retain the step for the front of the 45 acp case to headspace on. And shoot 45 auto rim cases.

I have a Colt New Service that will shoot the 45 auto or the 45 auto rim with headspace remaining the same. The half moon clips only help with ejection. That is all.

John

 

[quiet-wyatt]

OK - Makes sense to me now...

Thanks for the replies!

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

You can shoot 45acp shells in a DA S&W revolver if you replace the firing pin with a longer one, but you risk piercing the firing pin occasionally.

????

Howdy

You don't need to do anything to a DA S&W revolver to shoot 45ACP in it. At least not in a 1917, which was designed to shoot the 45 ACP. It will accept 45 ACP rounds with or without the moon clips. The rounds still headspace on the case mouths, even with the clips on. I shoot mine without clips all the time. All the clips do is give the extractor something to push against. Without the clips you have to shake them out or poke them out with a stick

Or you can just shoot Auto Rims which were specifically designed for 45 ACP DA revolvers. The rims are an extra .030 thick which takes up the empty space behind the cylinder usually occupied by the clips.

Perhaps this photo will help. Left to right the rounds in this photo are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 ACP, and 45 Auto Rim.

However the thicker rims of the 45 AR round preclude them from use in a Single Action revolver. The rims are .030 too thick, unless you relieve the rear of the cylinder by .030.

 

[Hastings]

Unfortunately, what works for the Colt doesn't always work for the S&W. I have owned a S&W 1917 45acp revolver, and now have the 22-4 45acp revolver. Neither of them would reliably fire 45acp cartridges without the moonclips. I tested about ten cylinders full in each gun, and fewer than one in six fired overall.

 

[Quarterbore]

I really wish Ruger or one of the distributers would listen to this request! There are a ton of shooters that use 40 S&W and 10mm and a convertable in these too rounds would allow cheap practice yet pretty good power.

I sold my 40s off last year but I still have my 10mms. Just seems like a good way to bring more shooters into single actions and a box of 40 S&W is much cheaper then say 38 S&W at least the last time I went to buy.

I could care less about the 38/40... but a 40 & 10mm combo is something I think deserves at least a limited run.

 

[Hastings]

Quarterbore,

I agree with you about the 10mm/40s&w, but I believe you can shoot both of these cartridges in a 10mm cylinder, no convertible second cylinder required. If Ruger came out with a 10mm Blackhawk to go along with the 357, and 44mag, and also added a 454casull 5shot Super Blackhawk to the lineup, all of these would fire two cartridges each (38/357, 40s&w/10mm, 44special/44mag, and 45colt/454casull). That would make more sense to me than the current convertibles. I have a hard time understanding why Ruger has yet to come out with a 454casull SA revolver. Granted, their 45colts can handle some stout loads, but it seems like a natural move for them to go to a 5shot 454 Super Blackhawk. Is the Super Blackhawk not strong enough for 454 casull, or is this Ruger's one instance of timidity?

 

[jpickar]

Hastings,

I too had a S&W DA 45 acp revolver, nodel of 1917.
I did not need moon clips to shoot it with 45 acp ammo.
I suggest that something is wrong with your cylinder if the 45 acp cases do not head space on the rim.

John

 

[Quarterbore]

Quarterbore,

I agree with you about the 10mm/40s&w, but I believe you can shoot both of these cartridges in a 10mm cylinder, no convertible second cylinder required. If Ruger came out with a 10mm Blackhawk to go along with the 357, and 44mag, and also added a 454casull 5shot Super Blackhawk to the lineup, all of these would fire two cartridges each (38/357, 40s&w/10mm, 44special/44mag, and 45colt/454casull). That would make more sense to me than the current convertibles. I have a hard time understanding why Ruger has yet to come out with a 454casull SA revolver. Granted, their 45colts can handle some stout loads, but it seems like a natural move for them to go to a 5shot 454 Super Blackhawk. Is the Super Blackhawk not strong enough for 454 casull, or is this Ruger's one instance of timidity?

The 40 S&W headspaces on the case mouth. If you drop a 40 S&W in a 10mm cylinder it will drop right down inside the hole :wink:

The 40 is easy...

The gun I really want is a new ULTRA BLACKHAWK line built on a 357 Maximum sized frame. Make it in at least the 454 and 480 and perhaps even the 475 Linebaugh. They can make the frame a little bigger if needed while they are making this work too. Oh well, Ruger is a little slow on the while desire for a 454 Single action I guess. Soon I will give up waiting and just buy a Freedom Arms!

 

[edlmann]

I know Ruger has outfits where they suppy the 45lc cylinder and the 45acp cylinder. But if you have the 45lc can you buy the 45acp cylinder from Ruger and have the same set-up? I have read where if you have these conversions that only one of the cylinders will fit well and the other will not so that accuracy is good with one cylinder and not the other.

Ruger will fit an ACP cylinder to a .45LC BH.

The inaccuracy problem comes with the 9mm cylinder in the .357 BH and the .355 bullets rattling down the .357 bore of the BH.

ETA: Ruger .45s, both calibers, have an earned reputation for tight cylinder throats, but this can be fixed.

Has Ruger ever made a 40S&W/10mm BH??

Ruger made a run of 10mm/.38-40 NMBH in 1990 or so: click here. They also made a run of .40 S&W Vaqueros.

 

[Hastings]

My bad on the 40 and 10mm. I knew that, but it didn't register for some reason. Old age setting in, I guess.

I have long since gotten rid of the 1917, but not due to the ignition problems without moonclips. Just not the right gun for me. The 22-4 will not reliably fire 45acp without moonclips, either. It sounds to me like it might be a hit or miss situation. On a different forum pertaining to the manufacturer, they were discussing installing longer firing pins in the guns to allow consistent ignition without the clips, but once you get into autorim it makes the it a non-issue.

Off the topic a bit, but can anyone tell me about their experience with the 357 maximum. I have zero experience with it, but it sounds interesting.

 

[Muley Gil]

"If you had the rear of a SA Ruger cylinder cut down, or recessed to allow the extra depth of a 45autorim's rim, 45acp cartridges would sit much further away from the rear face of the frame, and the firing pin may not reliably ignite the primers."

Not so. The .45 ACP rounds headspace on the case mouth inside the chamber.

I have a large number of .45 AutoRim ammo and brass and I had my .45 ACP Blackhawk cylinder machined to use .45 AutoRim. It works just fine.

 

[squint]

A little background information that, apparently, some are not aware of ...

Originally, (as in 1917) S&W .45 ACP revolvers were designed and manufactured to headspace on the CASE MOUTH, just as in the 1911 auto. The half-moon clips were used ONLY as an aid to easier loading and unloading.

Recently, some (maybe all), S&W .45 ACP revolvers have been designed, NOT to headspace on the case mouth, but on half/full-moon clips (or the thick AR rims), just as rimmed cartridges headspace on their rims.

Chambers in these guns are cut TOO DEEP to headspace on the case mouth. Normal .45 ACP cartriges without a moon clip will have excess headspace and seat too deeply to fire reliably. It could be that a longer firing pin would fire the cartriges more reliably but, with the excess headspace, it would NOT be a healthy situation. The revolvers were designed to be used with half/full moon clips or AR cases and should NOT be used with ordinary loose ACP rounds.

Ruger single actions in .45 ACP have always headspaced on the case mouth. There is no way to get any kind of moon clip involved and not enough room for the AR rim. However, as Muley states, the cylinder can be machined to make room for the AR rim and it will still be useable with standard ACP cases.

Personally, I think S&W has made a BIG mistake and has BETRAYED it's customers by changing the .45 ACP headspaceing from the case mouth to the rim/clip.

I do not know exactly which S&W revolvers have gone to this mode of headspacing and would greatly appreciate if someone could provide more complete information.

 

[Bucks Owin]

Unless one doesn't reload, and wants to shoot bargain brand .45 ACP, I see no good reason for the .45 auto cylinder.
The old Colt can run just fine at reduced velocity.....I like Green Dot for "running in 2nd gear" :wink:

(No slur on the fine .45 auto BTW, I just think it belongs in it's original platform, not a Blackhawk)

 

[4MUL8R]

What are the best places to look for a 45 ACP BH stainless cylinder? I'd like to have one with flutes.

 

[jpickar]

I think someone has modified the cylinder to not head space on the case shoulder. I can't believe that S&W would actully NOT properly head space a gun. That just doesn't make sense, even on a race gun. I own several S&W's and never heard of such a thing.

John

 

[Dale53]

>>>I suggest that something is wrong with your cylinder if the 45 acp cases do not head space on the rim.<<<

Smith & Wesson has changed the specs on the modern .45 ACP revolvers. They will NOT reliably work without the moonclips when shooting .45 ACP cartridges. The 1917 revolvers were designed to work without the need of clips in an emergency. The new ones are not.

I don't find that a problem. I use full moon clips with .45 ACP's (either Ranch Products steel full moon clips or RIMZ polymer full moon clips) or use Auto Rim cases. I reload everything I shoot in my revolvers (and use my own cast bullets). The steel clips require tools to load and unload but the polymer clips can be easily loaded and unloaded with your fingers (a child can do it).

Now, back on topic. I find my Ruger SS Bisley .45 Colt/.45 ACP Convertible a VERY useful combination. I load for both and it gives me choices regarding what type of shooting I am doing on a given day. Accuracy is EXCELLENT with both cylinders (after I reamed both cylinders so their throats are now .4525"). The .45 ACP case is a better platform for mild target loads (powder position with light loads is NOT a problem with the relatively small capacity of the .45 ACP case). The .45 Colt case on the Ruger platform allows serious hunting loads to be used.

It's hard to beat the versatility. My kids are raised and I don't have high demands on my discretionary spending. However, if I were a young man, trying to raise a family, it would be a Godsend to have a single revolver with such wide ranging potential for such a reasonable cost.

Dale53

 

[Muley Gil]

Unfortunately, squint is correct. Some S&W .45 ACP revolvers were built built without regards to firing without clips. I believe the current revolvers are beng built the "right way".

Bucks Owin, the .45 ACP cylinder is a very useful in a Blackhawk revolver. Premium ammo is much easier to find in the ACP, and of course, bargain priced ACP is more common as well.

The first gun I ever fired was a .45 Colt Bisley and the first centerfire revolver I ever owned was a OM Blackhawk. I've owned a number of .45 Colt revolvers and wouldn't be without one.

But there is also a place for the .45 ACP in revolvers too. My ideal combat revolver is a stainless 4" S&W M625 Mountain Gun in .45 ACP. It reloads faster with full moonclips than any speedloader. And it carries well on the hip.

 

[flatgate]

Off the topic a bit, but can anyone tell me about their experience with the 357 maximum. I have zero experience with it, but it sounds interesting.

It's a VERY INTERESTING cartridge. Stay away from light bullets and ball powder, though.

It seems to "shine" when shooting 180 and/or 200 grain bullets loaded over extruded powder, like IMR 4227 or H-4227.

Small rifle primers, too, IIRC. Ah, shucks, don't listen to me....... read the material written by a bona fide EXPERT, my friend Glen Fryxel.

Click Here

flatgate

 

[jpickar]

Most S&W owners feel that is when putting a good crimp on the case mouth to hold the bullet firmly is the problem. Thus allowing the case to slide a bit farther foward. And not so much quality control, although that is a factor, along with the frame mounted firing pin.

Competition shooters use moon clips for speed of loading, so putting a firm roll crimp on the brass is not a problem.

John

 

[Bucks Owin]

I agree with you pard, one can't go wrong with a .45 convertible. I may have an ACP cyl fitted one day, but not because I can't get uniform "slow ballistics"
with the big case (At least with bullets as light as 225 gr, lightest I've tried so far and I'm on the lookout for a 45468 mold) but I like to tinker, .45 factory ammo is reasonable and available and my son will be getting a 1911 this summer... (Think I've talked my self into something... :lol: )

PS: You were right on the money regarding the .45 MP mold, what a delight!

 

[Dale53]

Bucks Owin;
If people want to shoot light target loads with the .45 Colt, Titegroup Powder will work quite well for them. It is not position sensitive so will work with light bullets (Hodgdon has data for bullets as light as 160 grs).

In my case, for light loads, I just swap cylinders to the .45 ACP cylinder and use the same loads I use in my 1911 Target Pistol or my S&W 625's. I bulk load these (using a MiHec mould for the H&G #68 SWC 200 gr bullet). I load these so that they will work perfectly in all three platforms. I am perhaps fortunate that the one load shoots well in all of my guns. Talk about a pleasant and good shooting load (well under 1" at 25 yards and only slightly over double that at fifty yards). An excellent, clean cutting 200 gr bullet at about 750 fps makes a DANDY target load as well as a fine edible small game load (it will take an errant fox or coyote neatly, also). When using the #68 SWC for varmints, tho', I have often driven it at 1000 fps for a somewhat flatter shooting load.

For a real giggle, watch the expression on a newbie's face when a feller hits the ground in the roll over prone position and proceeds to lay a gun full in the kill zone of an IPSC target at 100 yards. :mrgreen:

Dale53

 

[Tx gun runner]

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=107448&highlight=

 

[JimMarch1]

There's something else the 45ACP cylinder is good for. At least in theory . Counter-sink the hell out of the cylinder first, I mean DEEP, all the way to the point where the cylinder narrows as it goes back to the "rim", and then use a spring-loaded brass tube as a speedloader from hell. Open the loading gate, put the tube in, spin the cylinder, all six go in there slick as snot.



Next question is how to speed-eject the empties. I have a plan for that involving a CO2 cylinder spraying up into the ejector rod mounting point in the front of the frame. Open the loading gate, hit the button (borrowed from a bicycle emergency air pump kit using screw-on CO2 cylinders) and spin the cylinder - all six empties go flying all airborne at the same time .

Total reload time might get down around 3 seconds or so - empties out and fresh in.

And then go see if the guys running the IDPA revolver class have a sense of humor .