CO Shooting and Carry

[writwing]

Have any of you here that carry a revolver rethunk your choice of carry after the CO shootings? Two guns, bigger bore, semi-auto??

 

[contender]

Nope,,,! It was only one bad guy shooter. A revolver would suit me just fine in a SD situtation like that.

 

[RaisinRiverRon]

Nope, only bullet resistant, not bullet proof.

 

[mike7mm08]

I have not rethought my carry. I carry what is comfortable for me. A LCP rides in my front pocket. Figure the odds of me ever needing a gun are small and more than likely it will be close range. If I cannot get the job done with 6 rounds of 380 I have no reason to be shooting.Also I carry everywhere. Unless there is security I ignore all no gun signs. I want there to be no chance of my gun being seen. A high capacity auto does you no good if have to leave it in the car.

However their are times that I do step up the fire power. Certain areas of town are thug central. Before concealed carry I either broke the law and carried or did not go there. Now if I am in those areas a high capacity 45 is on the seat next to me. I am more than ready to play the "lets pull whitey from his car and beat his asss" game.

 

[donut757]

I am more than ready to play the "lets pull whitey from his car and beat his asss" game.

This Colorado situation is no laughing matter, nor is the fact of being able to protect yourself, but that comment made me laugh a little bit.


no change of heart for me. The LCR in 38, maybe ammo in other pocket, will do fine... i just need to shoot it better. I also will have no problem with my 38 SP with CT grips, which i shoot rather well... i just need a little more clothing on to feel comfortable carrying it.

 

[CraigC]

All you need is one well-placed shot. Everything gets easier after that.....except your legal problems and subsequent infamy.

 

[RaisinRiverRon]

In MI, clean shoot, no problem, no lawsuit from goblin if he lives or his family if he didn't.

 

[Pal Val]

No rethinking on the gun. A lot of rethinking about ever taking the family to an establishment where guns are banned. They have become killing zones for these maniacs.

 

[bigboredad]

this is speculation on my part but it seems to me if someone was shooting back at him it would at the very least make him slow down if not run and hide. As many have said just because he was wearing a vest doesn't he won't feel a hit. I've heard of even the lowly 9 breaking ribs when a vest is worn. For me better practice is what will change for me and a open mind on shooting techniques styles and gear YMMV

 

[RKBA4CA]

Ballistic vest would have saved him from what? 9mm, 32 cal and 380acp?
Anyone packing 357, 40, 44, 45 or 10mm would have downed the guy.

 

[RaisinRiverRon]

+1 RKBA4CA!

 

[CraigC]

What I've read is that he was wearing a "tactical vest", not necessarily body armor. Either way a solid body hit would've completely changed the situation. He chose a place with a strict no guns policy and probably did not plan on being shot at. Only a yellow belly coward shoots at a room full of unarmed people and things change dramatically when bullets start flying 'at' said coward.

 

[Rclark]

No nothing changed here, My .44Spec Bulldog will still be my sidearm when I carry.

That said, to put in perspective, I read about quite a few people killed in vehicle accidents recently... Don't quite get the 'press' as much as these random shooting do....

 

[Hammerdown77]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate and say that most CCW carriers would have been woefully outmatched in that situation, and at best would have drawn his fire long enough to allow more people to escape, or maybe having someone return fire would have made him hustle to the nearest exit (not likely, considering he was dressed as if he was expecting to be shot or shot at).

Now, when his rifle jammed (as it supposedly did), that would be the best opportunity to make an effective shot. But if you guys can make a head shot from across the room on a dark target, in a dark theater full of smoke, screaming people running past you and in front of you, with sustained rifle fire coming in your direction....
Maybe someone could have snuck up on a blind side and shot him. All speculation at this point.

I think back on that nut (Arroyo) that showed up with an AK and a vest at the courthouse in Tyler, TX. He was actually shot in the vest several times with a 1911 wielded by a concealed carry permit holder (Mark Wilson, a hero), and that diverted the shooter's attention away from one of his likely victims (his son, actually). Unfortunately for Wilson, the hits on Arroyo were ineffective, as was Wilson's chosen cover behind a truck, and Arroyo shot Wilson to death. It finally took a trained police sniper to stop Arroyo.

I don't know too many people who conceal carry the firepower capable of stopping a determined attacker with body armor and a rifle. For that you need an offensive weapon, and your common concealed carry handguns just aren't it.

 

[tdubb]

No change. SP101 2.25 with .357 loads. I always carry extra ammo, either in speed loader or/and Tuff quickstrips.
I practice reloading from both.

 

[bigboredad]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate and say that most CCW carriers would have been woefully outmatched in that situation, and at best would have drawn his fire long enough to allow more people to escape, or maybe having someone return fire would have made him hustle to the nearest exit (not likely, considering he was dressed as if he was expecting to be shot or shot at).

Now, when his rifle jammed (as it supposedly did), that would be the best opportunity to make an effective shot. But if you guys can make a head shot from across the room on a dark target, in a dark theater full of smoke, screaming people running past you and in front of you, with sustained rifle fire coming in your direction....
Maybe someone could have snuck up on a blind side and shot him. All speculation at this point.

I think back on that nut (Arroyo) that showed up with an AK and a vest at the courthouse in Tyler, TX. He was actually shot in the vest several times with a 1911 wielded by a concealed carry permit holder (Mark Wilson, a hero), and that diverted the shooter's attention away from one of his likely victims (his son, actually). Unfortunately for Wilson, the hits on Arroyo were ineffective, as was Wilson's chosen cover behind a truck, and Arroyo shot Wilson to death. It finally took a trained police sniper to stop Arroyo.

I don't know too many people who conceal carry the firepower capable of stopping a determined attacker with body armor and a rifle. For that you need an offensive weapon, and your common concealed carry handguns just aren't it.

Then what should we do sheep up like the rest of the world and lay down with out trying???

 

[Hammerdown77]

Nope. Shoot back.

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate and say that most CCW carriers would have been woefully outmatched in that situation, and at best would have drawn his fire long enough to allow more people to escape, or maybe having someone return fire would have made him hustle to the nearest exit (not likely, considering he was dressed as if he was expecting to be shot or shot at).

Now, when his rifle jammed (as it supposedly did), that would be the best opportunity to make an effective shot. But if you guys can make a head shot from across the room on a dark target, in a dark theater full of smoke, screaming people running past you and in front of you, with sustained rifle fire coming in your direction....
Maybe someone could have snuck up on a blind side and shot him. All speculation at this point.

I think back on that nut (Arroyo) that showed up with an AK and a vest at the courthouse in Tyler, TX. He was actually shot in the vest several times with a 1911 wielded by a concealed carry permit holder (Mark Wilson, a hero), and that diverted the shooter's attention away from one of his likely victims (his son, actually). Unfortunately for Wilson, the hits on Arroyo were ineffective, as was Wilson's chosen cover behind a truck, and Arroyo shot Wilson to death. It finally took a trained police sniper to stop Arroyo.

I don't know too many people who conceal carry the firepower capable of stopping a determined attacker with body armor and a rifle. For that you need an offensive weapon, and your common concealed carry handguns just aren't it.

This is your winner folks! The man didn't say you shouldn't try something. He's just stating the facts. It's a lot easier to be an internet toughguy then it is to play a game that you have a very small percentage chance of winnng. Especially when you see the price it costs to play. You are going to have to get real close, or real lucky, to make a hit on someone when your eyes are watering and your coughing and you can hardly breath and it's dark and the room is full of civilians (running everywhere) and smoke. I'm not saying it could'nt be done, but the odds were in the killers favor.

 

[CraigC]

Nobody said it was gonna be easy. I think most here would just prefer to have the option of fighting back, rather than being an unarmed target. Another fine example of why shooters should not limit their practice to 7yds. All the BS about how all gunfights take place at contact distance is just that, BS. I guaran-friggin'-tee that he would not remain cool if bullets were flying in his direction. All it would've taken is one concealed weapons holder with a cool head and fair proficiency to change it from shooting fish in a barrel to a real gunfight.

I don't consider someone who just decided to buy a rifle and kill folks better equipped for the fight than myself. No matter what he's using. Your most potent weapon is that between your ears. The equipment you use is a far distant second.

 

[bigboredad]

Nope. Shoot back.

I meant no disrespect Hammer I may have taken your post the wrong way it's easy to do that on the internet. I do however like your answer and I believe that most who have a concealed carry permit and choose to carry it understand what the stakes are and have already purchased a ticket to the so called game. You just never know who they are

 

[Lee Martin]

I'm proficient with my CCW and round one will always be a head-shot. After that, the chest gets 2 or 3 slugs (unless he drops sooner).

 

[Lee Martin]

Another fine example of why shooters should not limit their practice to 7yds. All the BS about how all gunfights take place at contact distance is just that, BS. I guaran-friggin'-tee that he would not remain cool if bullets were flying in his direction. All it would've taken is one concealed weapons holder with a cool head and fair proficiency to change it from shooting fish in a barrel to a real gunfight.

Exactly. If I'm ever in that situation I'm dropping the hammer on the guy. What other option do you have? Just sit there and watch people get popped?

 

[rammerjammer]

I am still content with my LCR 38 or even my LCP.

 

[Hammerdown77]

I'm surprised no one tried to rush the guy when he stopped shooting. According to witness accounts, he stopped shooting a couple of times. Also, he was walking up the aisle, and there were people behind him that were not dead and were hunkered down hiding. The guy didn't have eyes in the back of his head, he was vulnerable from the rear once he started walking up that aisle.

Maybe some people did try to rush him and they are dead. Maybe we just haven't heard about them yet.

 

[Lee Martin]

Speculate all you wants guys. I know exactly what I would do in that situation....namely fire back.

And my CCWs are what they've been for the past 17 years:

Same loads too. Both of those guns have seen thousands of rounds and I've practiced as far out as 50 yards. Again, no one can predict how something like that will play out. But a proficient CCW definitely removes some of his advantage.

 

[Hammerdown77]

So, in a sense I agree it's ALL speculation and I mean ALL to include yours and hammerdown's.

Which is why I said in my post that it was all speculation :D


As to the original question, yes, it makes me think about what I would consider "sufficient" to carry; however, statistically speaking, this scenario is a drop in the ocean and your chances of needing to confront a body armor wearing active shooter with a semi-auto rifle, shotgun, pistol(s) and smoke grenades in a dark confined room with hundreds of other people is at best a corner case. You just can't base your CCW decisions off that type scenario, or else you'd walk around all day every day looking like one of our soldiers in Afghanistan.

What this situation does make me think about is, can I shoot my current CCW well enough to hit someone in vital areas, repeatedly, from across a theater, or parking lot, or food court, if need be? That's going to be farther than 7 yards. Is the round I carry going to make the perp reconsider his actions, or consider taking cover, at that distance of engagement? Do I have enough ammunition to engage the target long enough to either a) win the gunfight, b) allow police or SWAT to engage the target (and hopefully not me), or c) occupy the perp long enough that my family/friends/other innocents/me can get the hell out of there?

These types of events should always make us look at the choices we make in the CCW department in the cold, harsh light of reality.

 

[Hammerdown77]

Perhaps I failed to use a carriage return in the appropriate place to convey the meaning of that sentence. How about this:

[carriage return] All speculation at this point. {note: "All" referring to all previous statements made prior to this one in the post.}

 

[woodsy]

My gut reaction: put .357 full house in my snubbie.

 

[RKBA4CA]

Maybe late to this discussion, but it just occurred to me that the Soviet surplus TT-33 or their Norinco variants M-57, M-213 etc stuffed with Czech surplus steel core/steel jacket ammo would most certainly defeat any ballistic vest or soft body armor up to Class IIIa at close range. Not to say that they have stopping power, but they do penetrate body armor and wound for sure. Anyone for TT as a backup gun?

 

[A1tommygun]

Yes It has made me think a little about what I carry. I usually carry a S&W 37 because it is light and handy, I switch over to a Glock 33 when the weather gets hot and humid because it is less likely to rust. I am thinking when I am with loved ones I should carry something more potent like the Glock 33, in 357 sig or maybe my Glock 23, in 40 S&W, both well suited for hot humid weather and I find easy to conceal. In cooler weather maybe a security six or a 1911 compact. Yes it has made me think a bit.

What I really would like is to know if I were in a situation like that is, I was not the only one carrying. What should happen when some nut job does something like that, is for 2,3,4,5, heck the whole theater, open up on him.