MikeChandler said:
No matter how you slice it it's still .429 compared to .452. Here's what my 45 Colt Bisley Hunter will do. 355wfn at 1200fps will kill moose and bear I'm trying to connect with. Do I really need higher velocity or pressure?
Can you load a blackhawk 45 colt to 44 mag +p+ levels?
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No matter how you slice it it's still .429 compared to .452. Here's what my 45 Colt Bisley Hunter will do. 355wfn at 1200fps will kill moose and bear I'm trying to connect with. Do I really need higher velocity or pressure?
yankee7809
Single-Sixer
Get someone to build a five shot cylinder for your .45 and you can for sure live the dream.
5of7
Hunter
When bullets of the same weight are used, the .45 will produce higher velocity WHEN LOADED TO IDENTICAL PRESSURE LEVELS, than the .44.
When bullets of the same sectional density are used, the 45 caliber bullet will be heavier than the .44 bullet.
The larger the bore, the more power that can be produced with the same pressure level.
A very good article on this was written by Linebaugh....which I do not have a link to at present, but I am sure toat someone else here has.
And certainly the Blackhawk in .45LC will survive loads of the same 36 to 40K pressure level of the .44 Mg. As to BB ammunition, I would want to know the pressure level of that stuff before I shot any of it. 8)
OH......here is that article.
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm
When bullets of the same sectional density are used, the 45 caliber bullet will be heavier than the .44 bullet.
The larger the bore, the more power that can be produced with the same pressure level.
A very good article on this was written by Linebaugh....which I do not have a link to at present, but I am sure toat someone else here has.
And certainly the Blackhawk in .45LC will survive loads of the same 36 to 40K pressure level of the .44 Mg. As to BB ammunition, I would want to know the pressure level of that stuff before I shot any of it. 8)
OH......here is that article.
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm
WIL TERRY
Buckeye
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS 44MAG+P+ PERIOD. GET YOUR TERMINOLOGY CORRECT.
THE RUGER BLACKHAWK 45COLT CAN BE LOADED TO A MAXIMUM OF 80% OF 44MAG SAAMI SPECIFICATIONS.
This has been written about adnauseum for the past 30 years now. Does NOT anyone read the loading manuals and the books on said subject ?? It is ALL in there many times over.
Why would you ask total strangers hiding behind aliases on the internet for loading data or information when not one in one thousand has ever seen a pressure gun ??
And so it goes...
THE RUGER BLACKHAWK 45COLT CAN BE LOADED TO A MAXIMUM OF 80% OF 44MAG SAAMI SPECIFICATIONS.
This has been written about adnauseum for the past 30 years now. Does NOT anyone read the loading manuals and the books on said subject ?? It is ALL in there many times over.
Why would you ask total strangers hiding behind aliases on the internet for loading data or information when not one in one thousand has ever seen a pressure gun ??
And so it goes...
Besides the Linebaugh analysis there is hunting analysis :
Ross Seyfried on .45 Colt
Ross Seyfried on .45 Colt
5of7
Hunter
WIL TERRY said:
Actually the .45LC can be loaded to the SAME pressure levels as the .44 Mg. SAAMI specs, it just reduces the safety factor is all.
Instead of a 100% safety margin (which is what a manufacturer needs because of concerns about litigation) one has a 66% safety factor, which, if not pushed very much beyond THAT, is perfectly adequate for the handloader shooting his own ammo in his own Blackhawk. 8)
MikeChandler
Bearcat
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2011
- Messages
- 64
WIL TERRY said:
Thanks for the lesson! IS THERE ALSO NO SUCH THING AS 45 COLT P+ OR +P+?
WIL TERRY said:
Yeah I read them. When they say RUGER BLACKHAWK do they mean RUGER SUPER BLACKHAWK too? Surely the Ruger SUPER blackhawk 45 colt can handle more than a Ruger Blackhawk 45 colt, right?
Hence the questions
WIL TERRY said:
Relax, I have no intentions of killing myself, or others, by doing anything so stupid. I was soliciting the experience of others online to help me with a decision regarding selling a gun, and perhaps taking another gun in trade in the process.
The gun in question being is no loading book I can find. It's a Ruger Super Blackhawk Bisley 45 colt.
-----> HOWEVER IT'S A MOOT POINT NOW
I am keeping my freedom arms model 83, and returning it to them with 299.00 and they will cut me a 7.5" barrel for the gun, and tap it for a scope rail. Finito.
Ultimately it will be much stronger than either of the Super Blackhawk Bisleys, it will run any 45 colt load and any 454 casull load... and I can keep shooting 44 mag in the SBH hunter.
I appreciate all the good advice from all, Thank You Very Much.
Yes.
No.
All New Model BHs (Bisley and Super included) .357,.41Mag, .44Mag, and .45 Colt are all on the same large frame.... No different. Period. The new flattops on the medium frame is the exception (.44Spec and Lipsey's .45 Convertible), and you won't find them in .44Mag.
Correct. No such thing. There is Ruger Only Loads for .45 Colt, but only for certain revolvers as specified in the reloading manuals.
Lost Sheep
Single-Sixer
What is meant by "There is no such thing as +p or +p+" is that S.A.A.M.I. does not define it.
True.
Also true is that handloaders, independent ballistics testing labs, free thinkers and the occasional wacko MAY define +p and +P+.
People use the terms. That gives them definitions (at least in their own minds). Once we agree on definitions, it can become meaningful and useful to discuss. Without that agreement on definition and knowledge of the ultimate capacity of your firearms it is non-productive at best to use them without publishing a caveat. At worst, it can lead to an unknowing third party reading the discussion and proceeding to disaster.
I advise, "Don't be wacky." If you are willing to risk experimentation on your own (away from loads that have been tested by ballistics labs and tested by hundreds or thousands of other loaders) do it with your eyes wide open.
Using overpressure loadings and modified firearms is comparable to cutting your own trail, alone without a map. Many hikers and explorers and handloaders do. Some, to their regret.
Reloaders and hikers mostly follow established trails that have been proven by many others before. Some hikers and handloaders cut new trails with proper preparation and caution.
Lost Sheep
True.
Also true is that handloaders, independent ballistics testing labs, free thinkers and the occasional wacko MAY define +p and +P+.
People use the terms. That gives them definitions (at least in their own minds). Once we agree on definitions, it can become meaningful and useful to discuss. Without that agreement on definition and knowledge of the ultimate capacity of your firearms it is non-productive at best to use them without publishing a caveat. At worst, it can lead to an unknowing third party reading the discussion and proceeding to disaster.
I advise, "Don't be wacky." If you are willing to risk experimentation on your own (away from loads that have been tested by ballistics labs and tested by hundreds or thousands of other loaders) do it with your eyes wide open.
Using overpressure loadings and modified firearms is comparable to cutting your own trail, alone without a map. Many hikers and explorers and handloaders do. Some, to their regret.
Reloaders and hikers mostly follow established trails that have been proven by many others before. Some hikers and handloaders cut new trails with proper preparation and caution.
Lost Sheep
MikeChandler
Bearcat
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2011
- Messages
- 64
Thanks for all the good advice folks. I am sticking to 44 magnum and 454 casull.
WIL TERRY said:
There may not be a +P+ 44mag but when companies use that term, it tends to get spread out there as actual terminology. :wink:
Straight from Buffalo Bore Ammunition's web site:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=9
5of7
Hunter
BigJ71 said:
Kinda like the .45 Long Colt....right? 8)
5of7 said:
Exactly! Right or wrong, everybody knows what you're talking about when you say ".45 Long Colt"....I prefer ".45 Colt" but that's me. I also have no problem with +P+ as that's also a term used when describing extreme high pressure top end +P ammo.....
Pal Val
Buckeye
Want to load a .45Colt to cylinder-busting pressures? Get a 454 Casull.
That's what it's made for.
The reason why Ruger does not honor warranties when people shoot handloads is the occasional lamebrain who decides the SAAMI maximums are mere weak suggestions and goes ahead and stokes his handloads past the limit.
Darwin wrote a big fat book about them.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
That's what it's made for.
The reason why Ruger does not honor warranties when people shoot handloads is the occasional lamebrain who decides the SAAMI maximums are mere weak suggestions and goes ahead and stokes his handloads past the limit.
Darwin wrote a big fat book about them.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
Danged if I can find one of those Casull things in the ruger single action catalog ;-)
The thing is, you don't need 454 velocities to kill the vast majority of game on this continent, and the world for that matter. But, factory 45LC loads are powder puff stuff so we have to load our own with a little more authority.
Lost Sheep
Single-Sixer
A little history.
Dick Casull in the late 1950s developed the 454 Casull cartridge by overloading 45 Colt brass in Ruger Blackhawks, eventually developing his own revolver and the longer cartridge.
Elmer Keith did the same thing with the 38 Special and the 44 Special in the early 1950s, but he didn't market his own brand of ammunition and revolver. Remington and Smith & Wesson did that, reportedly at Keith's urging and these became the 357 Magnum and the 44 Magnum.
The 357 Magnum grew out of the 38 Special in the same sort of way and the 38 special grew out of the 38 Long Colt and 38 Short Colt in much the same way. (Note that the 38 Short Colt's parent case was converted cap & ball revolver cylinders.)
So, just as you can load a (modern, solid head) 38 Long Colt brass cartridge to .357 Magnum pressures and safely fire in a .357 Magnum revolver, you would be ill-advised to fire that cartridge in a 38 Long Colt revolver. By the same token, you would be ill-advised to bore out a 38 Long Colt chamber to 357 Magnum dimensions. If the original 38 Long Colt's frame was strong enough, you MIGHT be able to swap cylinders to the more powerful cartridge, but would probably reduce the number of chambers, for strength and safety.
In the above paragraph, substitue "45 Colt" for "38 Long Colt" and "454 Casull" for "357 Magnum" and you get the same truth.
Caveat: I am not a gunsmith. All the above is what I have concluded from reading and observing. If anyone claims that anything I wrote is incorrect, I will hear their reasoning and supporting evidence and consider changing my mind. This forum is, after all, a place to exchange knowledge, experience, views and opinions.
Lost Sheep
Dick Casull in the late 1950s developed the 454 Casull cartridge by overloading 45 Colt brass in Ruger Blackhawks, eventually developing his own revolver and the longer cartridge.
Elmer Keith did the same thing with the 38 Special and the 44 Special in the early 1950s, but he didn't market his own brand of ammunition and revolver. Remington and Smith & Wesson did that, reportedly at Keith's urging and these became the 357 Magnum and the 44 Magnum.
The 357 Magnum grew out of the 38 Special in the same sort of way and the 38 special grew out of the 38 Long Colt and 38 Short Colt in much the same way. (Note that the 38 Short Colt's parent case was converted cap & ball revolver cylinders.)
So, just as you can load a (modern, solid head) 38 Long Colt brass cartridge to .357 Magnum pressures and safely fire in a .357 Magnum revolver, you would be ill-advised to fire that cartridge in a 38 Long Colt revolver. By the same token, you would be ill-advised to bore out a 38 Long Colt chamber to 357 Magnum dimensions. If the original 38 Long Colt's frame was strong enough, you MIGHT be able to swap cylinders to the more powerful cartridge, but would probably reduce the number of chambers, for strength and safety.
In the above paragraph, substitue "45 Colt" for "38 Long Colt" and "454 Casull" for "357 Magnum" and you get the same truth.
Caveat: I am not a gunsmith. All the above is what I have concluded from reading and observing. If anyone claims that anything I wrote is incorrect, I will hear their reasoning and supporting evidence and consider changing my mind. This forum is, after all, a place to exchange knowledge, experience, views and opinions.
Lost Sheep
David LaPell
Blackhawk
Will the deer really know the difference if the .45 Colt is not going quite as fast as a .44 Magnum or will it be just as dead with the correct bullet properly placed?
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