California fires questions

[Mobuck]

With all the technology available, how difficult would it be to compile a list of all those in "shelters"? A master list immediately accessible via computer. If there's a question as to spelling or address, the person is still in a "shelter" right, SO JUST ASK THEM since the master list shows their current whereabouts.
Considering the speed of the fire's progress, many of the locations don't show high heat, long term heat--just burned structures. I've seen numerous videos showing plastic lawn furniture and wood porch rails still intact. I can't give definite time/temp required to completely incinerate a human body but it's far more than many believe. After this length of time, it shouldn't be difficult to locate many of the remains. Sure, there will be some that have been completely cremated, but the majority suffocated and remained basically intact.
What I've seen from some of the pictures and video is that there was almost criminal negligence in the location and accessibility of some of the burned "communities". A single, narrow winding dead end road along a ridgeline in a high fire risk area--does anyone give that any thought?

 

[gramps]

Individuals decided to build and live there without regard for consequences. The town has been there under a variety of names since 1864. Yep, all shelters should be connected to the same database. That would sure cut down on confusion.
gramps

 

[Pat-inCO]

Having ONE data base seems a good idea. Until you look at what happens
in incidents like this. Just because a person checks in at a given shelter
does not mean that person is at that shelter, except immediately after
checking in. A large portion of them migrate from shelter to shelter, looking
for other people they know. As such the maintenance of said data base
would be immense.

Not to mention WHICH update from which shelter is the most accurate?
Think about the problems we have with just registering voters, then multiply
that by a factor of at least ten and add in the "panic" of the incident.

Great idea, but totally impractical with today's technology, AND the fact
we are working with people rather than commodities that sit still.

This from a guy that's worked communications from multiple shelters in
multiple LARGE fires.

 

[ChiefMuzz]

It would be alot more difficult than you think to just throw together a database with the ability for multiple users to access and edit/publish. Plus the concern in that situation is getting the people safe and cared for, more than just making sure other people know they are safe.

 

[Mobuck]

Yet we can track a package (one of millions) from origin to destination ezee peezee???
I don't buy it. Darned near every one has a cell phone these days and there's technology that will "ping" that phone's signal. Red Cross wants MONEY yet they can't keep track of the people they're supposed to be helping. I call BS.

 

[Fox Mike]

Yet we can track a package (one of millions) from origin to destination ezee peezee???
I don't buy it. Darned near every one has a cell phone these days and there's technology that will "ping" that phone's signal. Red Cross wants MONEY yet they can't keep track of the people they're supposed to be helping. I call BS.

Having had the Red Cross help me out when a tornado wrecked the place where my roommate and I were staying I can say they only got names from those that gave the information to them. They were not in the 'personnel tracking business'; they were there to try to resettle those that needed it.

 

[Mobuck]

"They were not in the 'personnel tracking business'; they were there to try to resettle those that needed it."
In which case no one even knows where anyone is so how do they toss out all these numbers of "lost"? I'm not saying RC isn't "helping" but there seems to be a significant lack of accounting considering we're discussing human lives.

"Plus the concern in that situation is getting the people safe and cared for, more than just making sure other people know they are safe.

It's been TEN DAYS!!! How long does it take to give someone a new set of clothes, a shower, and feed them???? After that, it's log them in/out and where they went.

 

[RSIno1]

Yet we can track a package (one of millions) from origin to destination ezee peezee???
I don't buy it. Darned near every one has a cell phone these days and there's technology that will "ping" that phone's signal. Red Cross wants MONEY yet they can't keep track of the people they're supposed to be helping. I call BS.

Bar codes on survivors? Packages don't move by themselves and are easily controlled. A lot of people ran from their homes and their phones are now a melted mass. Red Cross is in the business of helping those who walk in with a cot and meal they don't ask names that is secondary to their goal.

 

[SAJohn]

In this day of instant communication via cell phones it is a bit confusing.

Always have a back door way out. Mine requires a FWD truck but I have it. (The west side of my 5 acres is BLM for many miles so I am always on guard.)

 

[Fox Mike]

"They were not in the 'personnel tracking business'; they were there to try to resettle those that needed it."
In which case no one even knows where anyone is so how do they toss out all these numbers of "lost"? I'm not saying RC isn't "helping" but there seems to be a significant lack of accounting considering we're discussing human lives.

"Plus the concern in that situation is getting the people safe and cared for, more than just making sure other people know they are safe.

It's been TEN DAYS!!! How long does it take to give someone a new set of clothes, a shower, and feed them???? After that, it's log them in/out and where they went.

The point is the Red Cross' purpose is NOT tracking personel, but rather help those that request help. It is not their job to keep track of everyone that has gotten a cup of coffee, a jacket, a place to rest for the night.

 

[wolfsong]

Folks, the area is RURAL. Mountainous, rugged, isolated rural. Cell signals non-existant. No cell signal equals no cell phones. Radio signals are spotty at best. There are homes spread out over many square miles. Isolated homes. Homes with residents who m8ght not even be on census lists. Homes incinerated to complete ash, contents included. Search party manpower is limited. It takes time to locate each homesite and sift through the ashes. This was not a grass fire. It was a blazing inferno with an overabundance of fuel. Add to that the fact that there is still a fire that is not fully contained, much less extinguished, and realize that manpower resources are spread thin.

How sad that some can't comprehend that this isn't a tidy little apartment fire or a residential neighborhood with a mapped grid of paved streets and addresses painted on the curbs. By comparison, how long did it take to find, recover and indentify the dead victims and the survivors of the World Trade Center calamity? That was in New York city with all of its manpower, resources and technology.

Perhaps appreciating and applauding all of the volunteers who have come from many miles to bring supplies and aid to this afflicted area and its citizens instead of questioning the efforts and results thus far would serve more purpose. To outsiders this still unfolding tragedy may be impersonal and seem pedestrian. To many of us Californians who have been greatly affected by very recent and devastating local fires it is heartbreaking. This fire, and the many others like it throughout the state in recent times, has affected tens of thousands, no, 100s of thousands, of our fellow citizens. Many of us are still regrouping and rebuilding from fires two years ago. A friend of mine only last week came and picked up her horses that she brought to me when she lost her home in the Detwieler Fire two years ago. Google it, please.

I will never understand those who prefer to criticize from afar about something they have no real knowledge of. I'm sure all of the many good folks helping the many victims will appreciate it. I'm sure the victims will, too. Enjoy your Thanksgiving celebrations. The survivors here will give their thanks, too.

 

[protoolman]

The people on the master list could at least be checked off the missing list even if they stopped in to get a cup of coffee. It would not be so hard. Even if no one knew where they are now they would know they left the area safely.
It seems this would be easier than sifting through ashes at a house like I saw on the news tonight looking for human remains. While all the while the family is sitting in Nevada at a friend's place. Fema should be coordinating this.

 

[Rick Courtright]

In this day of instant communication via cell phones it is a bit confusing.

Hi,

Not at all confusing, John: physically wipe out a couple of towers, operationally overload a couple more, and it doesn't take long before the whole system starts looking like dominoes. Add that power's often out, so recharging phones isn't always possible, even if the network's still up. My sister and BIL went thru just that combo of bad events during the fires between Santa Rosa, CA and the hills above Ukiah early last year.

If one sat down and looked at the whole cell system in this country, and started working out all the "what could possibly go wrongs" with it, he'd probably advocate just throwing the whole thing in the trash and starting over. Maybe work on something like the Europeans have done for years: ONE phone operating system, throughout a multitude of countries, so that money, manpower, and efficiency aren't spread over three or four competing systems under a "sooner or later, the market will shake this out" mentality. We CAN work out something like that if we want, just as we did with the electric grid. There may be a bazillion power companies in this country, but they all provide AC electricity at 110-120v and 60 cycles. Now imagine something like the Fukushima disaster in Japan not so many years ago happening here if Messrs Edison and Westinghouse were allowed to keep on feuding about what we were going to use to standardize our sytem: half their main island runs on 50 cycle power, the other half runs 60 cycle. And if memory serves, the undamaged systems were all 50 cycle units, while the damaged systems were 60 cycle, so there wasn't a lot of way to help the "damaged" guys out much.

Then, even if we could perfect cellular communications, we can take a look at who's in charge of "things" during these emergencies. Whoever moves the fire crews around seems to have a pretty good system. From there it goes downhill thru the likes of FEMA, local emergency agencies, gubb'mint vs private agencies, with their different procedures, etc. We can also look at the huge number of people trying to use the system: I tried for half a day yesterday to reach a friend in Redding, which was hit badly by fire earlier in the year, but seems to be only affected by excessive smoke right this minute. "We're sorry, all circuits are busy right now. Please try your call later."

When one steps back and looks at all that's going on, there are far more ways for the program to go south than to keep it on track...

Rick C

 

[Mobuck]

"this isn't a tidy little apartment fire or a residential neighborhood with a mapped grid of paved streets and addresses painted on the curbs."
Google maps are approx 3-5 years old but even a tent is visible. Heck, I can see deer trails across open fields and tell what crop was planted when the pictures were taken. County assessors know EVERY address and property owner. I KNOW how to find people(it's my job).

"The point is the Red Cross' purpose is NOT tracking personel, but rather help those that request help. It is not their job to keep track of everyone that has gotten a cup of coffee, a jacket, a place to rest for the night."
So, how do they(Red Cross) know whether they're doing a good job? By the amount of money donated by others?

We all have opinions. You have yours and I have mine. Fine, I'm done. No need to continue the discussion.

 

[GunnyGene]

And now comes the mud slides.

https://patch.com/california/malibu/fire-ravaged-communities-edge-mudslide-threat-replaces-fire

 

[wolfsong]

Butte County had a population of not quite 230,000 people in 2017. It is not a thriving hub of commerce (tax revenue), it does not have millions and millions in its budget, its infrastructure is primitive in comparison to many others in the state. That is just a fact of life.

The fluctuating "missing" list is mostly a recovery mission now. It's hard to get names from dead people. The majority of the now 800+ unaccounted for are most likely dead. The area of the fire is over 280 square miles of rough mountainous terrain, with homes spread out over those miles. Over 13000 HOMES are gone. 13000. Yeah, it shouldn't be too difficgult to find and sift through the ashes of these homes, even while still fighting the fire that is only 70 % contained.

Criminal, indeed.

 

[Montelores]

"They were not in the 'personnel tracking business'; they were there to try to resettle those that needed it."
In which case no one even knows where anyone is so how do they toss out all these numbers of "lost"? I'm not saying RC isn't "helping" but there seems to be a significant lack of accounting considering we're discussing human lives.

"Plus the concern in that situation is getting the people safe and cared for, more than just making sure other people know they are safe.

It's been TEN DAYS!!! How long does it take to give someone a new set of clothes, a shower, and feed them???? After that, it's log them in/out and where they went.

The Red Cross isn’t a government agency.

Their Mission Statement:

Mission Statement
The American Red Cross prevents and alleviates human suffering in the face of emergencies by mobilizing the power of volunteers and the generosity of donors.​

Vision Statement
The American Red Cross, through its strong network of volunteers, donors and partners, is always there in times of need. We aspire to turn compassion into action so that...

https://www.redcross.org/about-us/who-we-are/mission-and-values.html

Additionally, how many here who are helpfully suggesting that there be some type of “tracking” system would be outraged to think that the government or private group was “tracking” them?

I think that Wolfsong’s perspective is most valuable.

Monty

 

[Jeepnik]

As I've said I have a personal connection. But, how much you want to be that Malibu gets all sorts of state aid and Butte County ends up sucking hind tit.

I'd like to see the firefighting resources spent on each fire in the first few days. It might tell an interesting story. Or, maybe not, after all Malibu is a bastion of liberalism where as Butte is populated by normal hard working or retired folks. I wonder where money for the politicians comes from.

 

[bogus bill]

We live in cedar city utah. Today in the local paper I see we sent seven firemen with two trucks, one to the malibu fire and one to the paradise fire. Since I own property here and pay taxes on it, I guess I am helping out a couple dollars worth.

 

[wolfsong]

We live in cedar city utah. Today in the local paper I see we sent seven firemen with two trucks, one to the malibu fire and one to the paradise fire. Since I own property here and pay taxes on it, I guess I am helping out a couple dollars worth.

Thank you, sincerely, for your perspective.

 

[Rick Courtright]

We live in cedar city utah. Today in the local paper I see we sent seven firemen with two trucks, one to the malibu fire and one to the paradise fire. Since I own property here and pay taxes on it, I guess I am helping out a couple dollars worth.

Hi,

Thank you for your help, Bill! One of these days, it's likely we'll be sending someone your way in return...

I can't find the map I saw the other day (I thought it was Cal-Fire's site) that showed the States which all share resources in these fires. Naturally, all the States in the West were involved, but we also owe thanks to gramps and our other members from the Volunteer State who did their part to send help, too. Every time there's a big fire, one needs just to get close to any of the staging areas to be amazed at the variety of places help comes from. One year there were huge fires above Colusa in CA (about an hour north of Sacramento in the Central Valley.) I happened to be in Stonyford at the time, on totally unrelated business, maybe 15 miles from the closest front of the fire, as it was finally being contained.

Now Stonyford is one of those "Population 20" kinds of places with a Post Office, a gas pump or two, a bit of a mini-market which probably subsists on beer sales, and a fantastic rodeo arena which is busy on the weekends, but otherwise there's not much hustle and bustle going on. Yeah, we've still got those places here in CA, too! This trip, they'd staged somewhere close to 1500 firefighters in and around the arena, so it was full of tents, rigs and people. In looking about, it was hard to find two rigs parked together from the same place. Every State west of the Mississippi seemed to be represented!

On this Thanksgiving day, it seems appropriate to send our thanks to you to all involved with helping us, wherever you may be!

Rick C

 

[Wyandot Jim]

Our very small town of Fulshear (6000) sent one fireman along with some from Richmond.

 

[david knutson]

I have a Montana breed and raised cousin that lives about 12 miles east of Chico,, he and his family we're evacuated they have been staying just outside of Chico with friends I have had uninterrupted contact with him on Tuesday they were allowed to go to there home it was still there he said the fire hit a few and skip a few ....
I would like to add that I spend a lot of time down there I see every week what the Sonoma Santa Rosa fire did and all you here about is poor us people with the drive to accomplish have done just that ! The ones that lost little are still standing with there hand out,now please don't get me wrong I I feel bad for these folks . I have been all over that area Sebastopol,, west to the coast and North to Healdsburg and all over between the 101 and South of Chico to the 80 , about two months ago I got on a road in a construction detour at Healdsburg the construction has been going on for long time ,, anyway there is what they call Finch mountain road and loops around and comes back to Healdsburg I remember thinking if there was ever a wind or fire these people are going to be up yugo Creek and the only chance they had was to get down to the little river that runs back there . Why not cut that garbage down and save there homes you can't drive through there with out scuffing your paint , the brush in there has no value if they cut the trash and leave the harvestable timber it would let in a little sun and promote healthy growth I can think of a lot of benefits for dozing it down . The pioneer area south of 80 is better maintain but not a lot is it next? To quote a member we have Stewart's and stallwart's if you're going to own it you better take care of it...GOD BLESS YOU FOLKS AND I HOPE YOU CAN STILL FIND SOMETHING TO BE THANKFUL FOR...

 

[Ka6otm]

Arizona's sending some APS guys to help rebuild PG&E's destroyed infrastructure.