botched throat ream

[45sixgun]

I may have screwed up my cylinder. The throats on my new .45 BH convertible are super tight. I can't afford the reamer right now, but someone from the forum was kind enough (thank you, sir!) to send me one along with the pilot pack and cutting oil. I read multiple sets of instructions. In addition to the pilot, they said to use a brass sleeve made from a case. My brass guide however slid all the way forward leaving the part exposed that I ended up cutting accidentally. Next time I'll try using a much longer guide. I believe my second problem was in my choice of pilots. I thought I should pick the one that was the snuggest (but still fitting) in the front end of the throat. I think it ended up being too big. So I didn't end up reaming the throat at all, but I did cut a nice divot out of the mouth of the chamber. If those of you in the know tell me I shouldn't shoot with it, I will just send it to Ruger and see what they tell me. Thanks for any feedback.

 

[DGW1949]

My moto on safety concerns is;
When in doubt, don't.

I wouldn't chance the potential case split and/or blow out. And even if that didn't/don't happen, I suspect that the brass from that particular chamber could not be safely reloaded.
Besides the above, the revolver in question has been devalued by whatever it would cost to have a new cylinder fitted to it.

Everything considered, it'd be best to have Ruger fix the gun.....but don't feel bad, we've all made mistakes.

DGW

 

[DeletedMember275]

I hesitate to bring this up, but... CAS (Cylindersmith.com) would have only charged you $35 to ream your cylinder. While I understand and applaud you undertaking the challenge of doing it yourself, personally, I would send mine out. I know my limitations, or at least, I am frequently reminded of them by episodes just like this one!

No flame intended; just my personal reflections.

 

[GP100man]

I saw a $15,429.37 engine ruined with 1 pull of an impact guns trigger !!

Can we get a different angle on the gouge ?? the lighting is playing with my eyes .

 

[xtratoy]

I hesitate to bring this up, but... CAS (Cylindersmith.com) would have only charged you $35 to ream your cylinder. While I understand and applaud you undertaking the challenge of doing it yourself, personally, I would send mine out. I know my limitations, or at least, I am frequently reminded of them by episodes just like this one!

No flame intended; just my personal reflections.

The current price is $42 which includes return shipping but not the price for you to ship the cylinder to him. Figure $50-52 total for one cylinder. I had my first cylinder reamed by Cylindersmith and it shoots great. After that I bought my own reamer and now do my own.

 

[dlhredfoxx]

I would not shoot it in that condition, too much risk of bulging brass, worse case scenario is a ruptured case. I'd send it into Ruger. They will charge you to replace the cylinder but it's ok, everybody screws up every now and then...

If it makes you feel any better, I just sanded through the thin laminated cedar veneer on my daughters tack trunk that I have been rebuilding and refinishing for the past 2 weeks, which blew about 12 hours of detail sanding work (I was down to 220 grit at the time), and now requires I take it back apart, cut a new piece and start over on that section... and just before I broke through the sheet with the sander I thought to myself, I wonder how thick this is and how much I've taken off?

We all do it, just don't make the mistake of taking a risk and shooting the cylinder... you could always make it a 5 shot like before the transfer bar safety came about...

 

[45sixgun]

Dlhredfoxx, I think I'd be far more upset about the sanding disaster. Work on an actual project creates a greater sense of significance than something paid for out of a paycheck. Bummer.

I know this is far from scientific, but I studied the accidental cut and the chamber very closely. I can't see any difference, any dip in the circle. My wife is small and has small fingers (and softer and more sensitive). She can easily get a finger in there. I had her feel closely for any dip or irregularity. She couldn't feel any.

Last night I tackled the job again. After fiddling around awhile, I realized what my original problem was. I had chosen the correct pilot. It is the largest one in the pack and fit through every chamber/throat. The problem was that it did not fit through the brass sleeve I had made from a spent case. I cut a longer sleeve and split it. That worked perfectly. I was able to ream all the throats in the Colt cylinder and the ACP cylinder. There was quite a bit of metal that came out of the ACP throats. I noticed too that they did not cut uniformly around the whole circumference. Part of it was cut more deeply. I hope that was ok. Maybe they weren't perfectly round, or worse, maybe the pilot wasn't big enough. I don't know. I will get out and shoot both cylinders sometime in the next day or two to see how they perform.

I wish I had been able to have a practice run first, but all may still end up well.

Here are some shots of the split brass sleeve/guide and how much steel came out of an ACP throat.

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

I can't imagine a misaligned reamer takes all that much metal off in a rotation or 3. I'd worry more about brass becoming chamber and orientation specific than case blowout. Since the scallop is right at the chamber mouth, a sizing die would remove all its effects.

I'd fire cowboy loads and measure the brass from that chamber and compare to the others. Resize and see if it chambers in the other chambers. Then slowly work up, doing that, to your regular loads.

You have provided a great service to the rest of us by emphasizing the need for a split brass guideminstead of a solid one.

 

[SlickRS23]

Acually, If you look close at the material left between the bore and the standing hub which has the indexing teeth, it doesn't look that bad.
Compare that amount of space to the cylinder below it in the pic and it appears to be about the same.
Looks like all you did was remove the blueing ang a very small amount of material.
Compared to some of the cylinder finishes from reamers I've seen come from Ruger in the past, It really don"t look too bad.
I would follow Iron Mike Golf's advice and I would not be surprised if it works fine.
That scallop could still be under the Max. dia. for the cyl. and could be reamed slightly larger to make it round again and still be within tolerance.
Jeff

Like one of the big league sluggers in baseball said,"I'd rather go to bat a million times and strike out every time then to never go up to bat".

 

[45sixgun]

Good advice, thanks.

In addition to cutting the brass guide lengthwise, I had to stick a wedge in it and pry it open more. The reamer wouldn't fit through it otherwise. The starline case walls are tapered in thickness. I put the thinner end in the chamber first.

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

Is the brass guide there as a centering pilot or to protect the chamber walls? If the latter, I wonder about using aluminum from a soda can.

 

[45sixgun]

From my very limited understanding it's just to protect that part of the chamber, so aluminum should be fine.

 

[Pinecone]

45sixgun, read my previous posts on this subject and you would have got the "brass bushing" right. It should "NOT" be split, but a solid ring with a relatively tight fit back on the reamer. The idea of the bushing is to "prevent" your cutting the "chamber" and it must be in that "position" at all times while reaming. You "should" have the tighest fitting pilot that still allows your reamer to turn without binding. You need to use a 7/16" expansion reamer to get that brass bushing to the "right" fit. If you lived in Maine, I would have done the job for you for "nothing" while you watched! You definitely need to send the gun to Ruger now.............Dick :wink:

 

[roylt]

I'm no smith and doubt I ever will be so please explain why you need to ream this? If it wasn't right wouldn't you just call Ruger to fix it for you?

I must be missing something.

 

[JWhitmore44]

I'm no smith and doubt I ever will be so please explain why you need to ream this? If it wasn't right wouldn't you just call Ruger to fix it for you?

I must be missing something.

New model Ruger 45 cylinders throats are a bit notorious for being a bit tight and non-consistent. The throats are considered still in spec so Ruger wouldn't ream out the cylinders to your specs. 45 cylinder throats are often sized to .451 for shooting jacketed bullets. Lead bullets are normally sized .452. You will have less leading and better accuracy with the correct and consistent throat sizes.

 

[45sixgun]

Pinecone, I appreciate your gesture. So is the guy at this web site doing the job incorrectly (http://denvergunsmith.com/Reamer/index.html)? Basically I followed his method exactly. I tested the pilots in the pilot pack. The largest one it came with was a pretty snug fit and I used it on each chamber.

 

[roylt]

I'm no smith and doubt I ever will be so please explain why you need to ream this? If it wasn't right wouldn't you just call Ruger to fix it for you?

I must be missing something.

New model Ruger 45 cylinders throats are a bit notorious for being a bit tight and non-consistent. The throats are considered still in spec so Ruger wouldn't ream out the cylinders to your specs. 45 cylinder throats are often sized to .451 for shooting jacketed bullets. Lead bullets are normally sized .452. You will have less leading and better accuracy with the correct and consistent throat sizes.

I understand better now thanks but have another question. Why aren't the lead bullets .451 instead of .452? One thousand of an inch doesn't seem like a lot to me?

Appreciate the education and sorry for the hi-jack.

 

[xtratoy]

Lead bullets are sized to .452 to ensure the best seal between the bullet and the bore. Leading of the barrel is caused by hot flame and gases burning past the bullet and melting it which gets deposited back on the barrel. After several shots the lead builds up and ruins accuracy.

 

[45sixgun]

Can we get a different angle on the gouge ?? the lighting is playing with my eyes .

Top left chamber.

 

[Cholo]

45sixgun, you'll do well listening to Pinecone who has more real life experience in gunsmithing than 1,000 internet "experts". I speak from experience...

Thanks Pinecone!

 

[45sixgun]

45sixgun, you'll do well listening to Pinecone who has more real life experience in gunsmithing than 1,000 internet "experts". I speak from experience...

What you're really saying is that Pinecone is a more reliable "internet expert" than the others out there, since he is expressing his expertise right here.....on the internet.

I'm not calling into question anyone's expertise, just a newbie having fun learning about sixguns.

Pinecone, I also used the instructions of a former gunsmith found here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/36436865/Forcing-Cone-and-Throat-Reaming

Is the process he describes a reliable one in your opinion? The only difference for me was that I couldn't fit the reamer pilot into the case so I had to split it open to create room for it.

 

[Pinecone]

45sixgun, I certainly do not claim to be a know-it-all by any stretch of the imagination nor am I aquainted with that particular gunsmith. I have been gunsmithing for 45 + years and have been aquainted with this "procedure", (throat reaming) for a very long time. Often, even though a person may believe they are following instructions to a "T", methods are developed and perfected over a long period of time and not just after "one" cylinder experience. Your problem started when you used a "split" brass bushing. I personally, would "never" recommend this! With a spit bushing, the very sharp edges of the reamer will grab the edge of the brass split and skewer the reamer off center. Using only the throat "pilot" without a brass bushing at all, well you can see that by hand, neither you or I, or anyone else for that matter, has the steadiness or acumen to keep that reamer perfectly straight. With the pilot and bushing in tandem, they do this job for you. It's basically the same principal for using a "steady rest" in a lathe for turning a long piece. Two points of contact to keep the work (in this case, the reamer) straight to cut "only" the "throat". That's it in a nutshell. Feel free to accept or reject "my" advice. Suit yourself!........................Dick :wink:

 

[45sixgun]

Feel free to accept or reject "my" advice. Suit yourself!

You seem to think I'm calling your expertise into question, but if you read my previous comment, you'll see I am not. I was only responding to Cholo's words. Ideally, I can see why using a bushing as you describe would be the way to go. I didn't have one, nor did I know how to get one. I see that others out there who have reamed their own cylinders used the method I used. Did I "ruin" my cylinder? Guess I'll have to shoot it to find out. Thanks for giving your advice. I really do respect and value it. After reading your latest explanation, you seem like someone who knows what he's talking about. Any ideas where I could come up with a bushing to use instead of a split case?

 

[45sixgun]

I decided to try polishing the chambers a little to see what would happen to that divot I accidentally cut, and to see if I could smooth out some of the throat cutting marks. I wrapped a little scotchbrite on a brush and put it in the cordless. I didn't have to "scrub" much at all and when I looked at it I was real happy to see that the accidental cut was no longer visible. Maybe it wasn't anything to worry about after all. But the real test will be when I get out to shoot it today or tomorrow.

 

[dlhredfoxx]

Looks like the nick was only cosmetic, whew! You are right, you'll know if it worked or not when you shoot the gun at the range. The three 45 colts of miner that I reamed the throats on averaged around 1.5" reduction in group size at 25 yds. My two Vaqueros had the most noticeable improvements in accuracy from the reaming process. For what it's worth, from one "internet" gunsmith to another.

 

[45sixgun]

...from one "internet" gunsmith to another.

Oh heck, we're all experts! 8)

I sure hope I see the improvement you saw.

In light of using a bushing guide the instructions that come with the Manson reamer state the following:

“Accessory Tooling: T-Handle and good quality cutting oil. Procedure: Select a pilot bushing that fits the throat(s) as closely as possible, and fit it to the reamer, securing it with a snap ring. Attach the reamer to the T-handle and oil the cutting edges and pilot bushing. Insert the reamer into a chamber from the rear (as you’d load a cartridge) and slide the pilot into the throat until the cutting edge of the reamer stops against the lead angle into the throat wall. Begin turning the reamer in a clockwise direction while applying forward pressure, being careful to keep the reamer centered in the chamber. When through cutting, clean the reamer of chips before withdrawing from the chamber.”

The instructions don't call for the bushing at all!

 

[JLarsson]

...from one "internet" gunsmith to another.

Oh heck, we're all experts! 8)

I sure hope I see the improvement you saw.

In light of using a bushing guide the instructions that come with the Manson reamer state the following:

“Accessory Tooling: T-Handle and good quality cutting oil. Procedure: Select a pilot bushing that fits the throat(s) as closely as possible, and fit it to the reamer, securing it with a snap ring. Attach the reamer to the T-handle and oil the cutting edges and pilot bushing. Insert the reamer into a chamber from the rear (as you’d load a cartridge) and slide the pilot into the throat until the cutting edge of the reamer stops against the lead angle into the throat wall. Begin turning the reamer in a clockwise direction while applying forward pressure, being careful to keep the reamer centered in the chamber. When through cutting, clean the reamer of chips before withdrawing from the chamber.”

The instructions don't call for the bushing at all!

I'd say it's up to the user to determine the proper procedure of how to do this. Some might be able to without a bushing. Knowing myself (NOT an expert), there's no chance of me doing it without an aid of some sort.

 

[RUFFBIRD]

Hopefully your cylinder will be okey, & just cosmetic. Just touching the edge with a rotating reamer can create a shinny spot taking ever so little material with it. Those reamers are extreamly sharp.

My little addition to the conversation, is about changing out the brass bushing on the reamer at least after reaming 2 different cylinders. I performed this on 4 of mine, & found the brass bushing to be shaved almost paper thin after reaming 24 chambers....

I agree with Pinecone 100% about never using a "split" bushing!

Hopefully, your gun will shoot better than ever,..... 3 out of 4 of mine shot tighter groups with lead. Perhaps now I need to chamfer the forcing cone on the one that didn't.....

Let us know how your cylinder works out, & thanks for your posts.... 8)

 

[cas6969]

Ah…. all you did was polish it a little. Some people pay a lot of money to have that done.


You have to be careful to keep it centered and not let the tail end get sideways enough to touch the cylinder walls. That's what the sleeve is for, but if it is touching the walls you're putting too much sideways torque on it and not going in straight. You shouldn't NEED the sleeve, it's just there to make it easier. You still need to be careful to be centered and not torquing the reamer sideways. Sometime the sleeve will turn and make light scuff marks of it's own. Not a lot you can do about that.

(the one you NEED the sleeve on are the New Vaquero's with the short little throats, it's very easy to get crooked on those.)

I am a bit confused about the split case being used, but I guess that's because you're sleeve is too long. As you or whomever found out that made it, you can't use the full length case or the reamer won't fit through. I only used a piece maybe 1/2" long off the end.


You can do it without a sleeve as I said, you just need to be more careful about keeping it centered. I don't use a sleeve when doing 45ACP cylinders. I found out the hard way (one too many times) that the sleeve will work it's way forward into the chamber on the 45 acp and not want to come out. Then you're stuck with the fun job of trying to remove it without damaging the chamber. (when they get stuck it it almost always ruined the the sleeve)

 

[Pinecone]

"Being careful to keep the reamer centered in the chamber". Now isn't that interesting that they would add that to the instructions! I found that out many, many moons ago when I started doing throat reaming. That's exactly why I recommend you use the bushing on every "single" cylinder you ream regardless of caliber. If you read my posts on this subject, you would know the importance of using an "expansion" reamer to ream the brass "bushing" to the right size. This prevents your reaming the bushing rather than just the throat. Should you get a bushing "stuck" in the chamber as cas pointed out, it's an easy effort to remove it with the right size "tap", providing of course, you have the "right" size tap. Simply turn the tap in about 3/4 of a turn and drive the tap and bushing back out the back of the cylinder. I have cut off some "taper" taps to do specifically this and other jobs. With short taps, you don't have the possibility of "scoring" the chamber with the tap. In lieu of this, you can rap the tap threads with scotch tape. Just a few tricks-of-the-trade I have picked up over the years of working guns,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Dick :wink: