Blackhawk 45 Colt/45 ACP conversion question

[bagdad_45]

I have just put payment on Lipsey 45 colt/45 acp on Gunbroker. I have tried to find out if the 45 acp cylinder uses moon clips. I haven't seen anything on this at the ruger site, other forums or searching here. FIgured it would better to ask then to keep searching.

 

[Hondo44]

The short answer is no. Apparently Ruger doesn't feel that anyone would want to have to remove the cylinder from the gun to load and unload it with a Moon clip. And in a SA there's no problem ejecting rimless cases w/o a clip. However this question comes up from time to time.

The first problem is that the 45 ACP cylinder would have to be shaved about .040" (the thickness of the clip) on the rear face to make space for the clip. Loose rounds would still be usable after shaving it because the case mouth would still headspace on the shoulder in the chamber. It would be no different than shooting them with out a clip in a Smith revolver except the Smith won't extract the cases.

One guy actually figured out that he could reload his SA Ruger faster by swapping the fired cylinder with another pre loaded cylinder. The loose rounds could be easily dropped out of the chambers however. But a moon clip would keep them in the cylinder better. One wouldn't even have to swap cylinders, just remove cylinder, dump the empties easily if in a moon clip and use rounds loaded in a clip to easily refill the cylinder and pop it back in the gun. No clips are made to fit Ruger SAs but S&W clips need only slight modification to work.

I have a Ruger Vaquero with only the 45 Colt cylinder. I thought I'd try ACPs so of course I needed a moon clip the keep the ACPs from falling all the way into the chambers. The ACP rounds have a thinner rim than 45 Colt so there is about .020" excess headspace. So I surface ground a moon clip from .040" down to .020". I had to make the center hole slightly larger for the Ruger cyl star and deepen the holes a little for the cases. The Ruger cyl has a slightly smaller radius from the centerline of the chambers to cyl centerline.

It worked perfectly. The ACPs shot to a different point of aim then my 45 Colt handloads but that would be true in a convertible as well. But as I said the clips will not work with the ACP cylinder because it's longer than the Colt cyl and would have to be shaved. And you wouldn't have to thin down the clips, just make the other modifications I mentioned above.

 

[bagdad_45]

Jim,

Thanks for the response and not pointing out what a dumb question this was. As soon as I read "take out the cylinder" I realized what a terrible question this was and if I would have thought about it I would have figured it out. I am generally a semi-auto guy with a few plastics and several 1911 in 45 ac. The only thing I could see was the revolver shooters at USPSA matches shooting S&W with moon clips. I do have a convertible Blackhawk in 38/9mm but it still didn't cross my mind about what I was asking. Guess I need to get it out more and have some fun. :roll:

 

[sunday bill]

My convertible is not a Lipsey's and I'm not overly interested in using moons, but my biggest disappointment came when I realized I'd have to whittle away at the rear cylinder face in order to shoot my pet roll-crimped 45 Auto Rims.

Mine is well-done, accurate, and will become a favorite, but my gut feeling is that Ruger should have put a tad more thought into this'n.

 

[bagdad_45]

I am really looking forward to getting it in my hands and shooting it. Everything I have read about these is they are great shooters. The conversion really appealed to me because I dominantly shoot the 45 ac for my other guns and competition, so no shortage of rounds to use in the gun. But have also been considering a large caliber for other uses. Just couldn't see getting to a 44 magnum, just not really enough use in it for me. I am really trying to acquire guns I will shoot and and that don't require a lot of extras. The 45 colt really seems to fit the bill for a large caliber six gun and eventually I can work into reloading it. Biggest thing I will be looking for is a holster.

 

[sunday bill]

The availability of 45 ACP brass with small primer pockets from this forum's Yankee2500 (ordered 2000 yesterday) makes a 45 convertible revolver an attractive proposition ta me. Insurance, ya know, against any possible future shortage of ammo or large pistol primers. Makes my big bore ammo-makin capabilities just a tad more versa-tile.

 

[Ray Newman]

Sunday Bill: I am also a fan of the .45 Auto Rim.

More than likely Ruger did give this some thought. While agreeing that it is a great calibre, I think it is a "niche" calibre with a very limited following, much like the .41 Magnum. Just too many readily available .45 ACP platforms for the .45 Auto Rim to compete. It never ceases to amaze me when other shooters at the range ask about my S&W 625's and then inquire if the .45 Auto Rim is a wildcat....

 

[Hondo44]

My convertible is not a Lipsey's and I'm not overly interested in using moons, but my biggest disappointment came when I realized I'd have to whittle away at the rear cylinder face in order to shoot my pet roll-crimped 45 Auto Rims.

Mine is well-done, accurate, and will become a favorite, but my gut feeling is that Ruger should have put a tad more thought into this'n.

Bill,
I don't have a 45 ACP cylinder to try it but the roll crimped rounds may still work in the Ruger or have you already tried? Or the modified clip will allow them to be used in the Colt Cylinder.

You might find a used ACP cyl that has been separated from it's gun, they show up from time to time. Or you could also send the gun to Ruger, they will fit an extra ACP cyl to your gun since it is an original convertible. Then you could whittle on that one, and use a standard moon clip.

The 45 AR is a great option as Ray said to use with the rolled crimp . You can also get 45 Cowboy Special brass which is the same length as ACP/AR and shoot ACP loads in the Colt cylinder.

 

[Thumbcocker]

Iirc when the convertibles were first introduced GI .45 acp was dirt cheap and plentiful.

 

[Tellico]

And now--- 4hrs to go!!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/170879295501?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

 

[Ray Newman]

Hondo44: from what I was told, in order to "clear" the recoil shield, the rear of the cylinder needs to be milled down to accommodate the thick rim on the .45 Auto Rim brass.

I hazard to guess the cost to mill the .45 ACP cylinder for .45 Auto Rim brass. Probably be cheaper to load the .45 Cowboy Special brass for the .45 Colt cylinder.

Will the .45 Cowboy Special rim clear the recoil shield if loaded into the .45 ACP cylinder??

For those not familiar with the .45 Cowboy Spec'l:
http://cowboy45special.com/

 

[Hondo44]

Hondo44: from what I was told, in order to "clear" the recoil shield, the rear of the cylinder needs to be milled down to accommodate the thick rim on the .45 Auto Rim brass.

I wish I had an ACP cylinder to confirm it, but I bet you're correct! In that case the cheaper 45 Colt Cowboy Special might be ideal to use in the ACP cylinder and cheaper brass to buy. It depends on the rim thickness and how it compares to the headspace Ruger designed into their ACP cylinders.

http://www.cowboy45special.com/cowboy45brass.html

 

[Hondo44]

My convertible is not a Lipsey's and I'm not overly interested in using moons, but my biggest disappointment came when I realized I'd have to whittle away at the rear cylinder face in order to shoot my pet roll-crimped 45 Auto Rims.

Oh wait, I just realized Bill that you have apparently already confirmed that 45 AR does not work in an ACP Ruger cylinder!

Perhaps we could get you to cut a 45 Colt case in half so it'll chamber in the ACP cylinder and verify if there's enough headspace for the Colt rim to clear? If it does your a candidate for the 45 Colt Cowboy Spl brass.

 

[Ray Newman]

I just went out to the armory and removed my .45 Flat Top convertible from the vault:

-- The .45 Colt and the .45 ACP cylinders will not turn past the loading gate if a .45 Auto Rim is loaded.

-- The .45 Colt and .45 ACP cylinders will load the .45 Cowboy brass and turn. I placed 6 unloaded, unfired, and unsized pieces of .45 Cowboy Spec'l. brass into both cylinders and cycled the action. I have no loaded .45 Cowboy ammunition to try in either cylinder.

 

[xtratoy]

45 special brass works great in my 45 ACP cylinder in my 45 Flattop.

 

[xtratoy]

The availability of 45 ACP brass with small primer pockets from this forum's Yankee2500 (ordered 2000 yesterday) makes a 45 convertible revolver an attractive proposition ta me. Insurance, ya know, against any possible future shortage of ammo or large pistol primers. Makes my big bore ammo-makin capabilities just a tad more versa-tile.

Why do you think that small pistol primers will still be available if there is a shortage of large pistol primers?

 

[Hondo44]

Ray and xtratoy,

Thank you both! That confirms it then. I doubt that loaded 45 Special rounds would be any different.

 

[edlmann]

. . . my biggest disappointment came when I realized I'd have to whittle away at the rear cylinder face in order to shoot my pet roll-crimped 45 Auto Rims.

I don't have a 45 ACP cylinder to try it but the roll crimped rounds may still work in the Ruger or have you already tried? Or the modified clip will allow them to be used in the Colt Cylinder.
You might find a used ACP cyl that has been separated from it's gun, they show up from time to time. Or you could also send the gun to Ruger, they will fit an extra ACP cyl to your gun since it is an original convertible. Then you could whittle on that one, and use a standard moon clip.
The 45 AR is a great option as Ray said to use with the rolled crimp . You can also get 45 Cowboy Special brass which is the same length as ACP/AR and shoot ACP loads in the Colt cylinder.

.45AR won't work in either cylinder as-is since the rim is much thicker.

Also, in addition to removing some .030 from the rear of the ACP cylinder, the web in the center of the cylinder must be reamed slightly to clear the diameter of the rim of the .45AR.

 

[edlmann]

And now--- 4hrs to go!!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/170879295501?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Wow!

US $237.50 [ 19 bids ]

 

[xtratoy]

And now--- 4hrs to go!!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/170879295501?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Wow!

US $237.50 [ 19 bids ]

WOW! is an understatement! :shock: :shock: :roll:

 

[SL1]

One of the first things that I checked when I brought home my Flat Top .45 Convertable was that I could cut a .45 Colt case down to .45 ACP length, run it into an ACP sizing die, and chamber it in the ACP cylinder. It worked. So, I chose a combination of dies that will load .45 Colt, .45 shortened Colt, and .45ACP, with roll and taper crimps at both lengths. Now, when I load my .45 Colt cases until they split, I will simply cut them to ACP length and make them go again until they split again.

Why bother with the Auto Rim cases at all?

SL1

 

[xtratoy]

The reason for 45 special brass was the interior design of the brass. It is designed to seat common 45 slugs without running into thickness problems as the wall thickness increases as it gets closer to the base.

 

[Meeko]

If someone wants to tinker it's their buissness however, I'm just asking here. Isn't the 45 cowboy an answer to a problem that doesn't really exist? I mean other then a shorter OAL why not run 45 S&W Schofield? You can relaod it through most 45 Colt dies and once the initial expence of getting your brass your good to go and no modifications on any 45 Colt cylnders needed.

Also I bought some 45 ACP Federal 230 ball from Walmart that had the small primers. I have several thousand 45 ACP brass with large primers. This threw a wrench in I don't want to keep track or seperate all of that. Don't know what that was about but Isn't 45 ACP suppose to be Large primers? Has been in the 22 years I've relaoded it. I think the people behind the green ketchup are behind it!!!

 

[Hondo44]

If someone wants to tinker it's their buissness however, I'm just asking here. Isn't the 45 cowboy an answer to a problem that doesn't really exist? I mean other then a shorter OAL why not run 45 S&W Schofield? You can relaod it through most 45 Colt dies and once the initial expence of getting your brass your good to go and no modifications on any 45 Colt cylnders needed.

Also I bought some 45 ACP Federal 230 ball from Walmart that had the small primers. I have several thousand 45 ACP brass with large primers. This threw a wrench in I don't want to keep track or seperate all of that. Don't know what that was about but Isn't 45 ACP suppose to be Large primers? Has been in the 22 years I've relaoded it. I think the people behind the green ketchup are behind it!!!

Meeko,
It's a fair question. Very competitive Cowboy Action shooters (not me) want pipsqueak loads to be able to shoot faster. Light loads in big 45 cases don't work well and can be dangerous. So I used Schofield cases for my moderate loads.

But before Trail Boss came out, the real 'fat' powder, somebody decided to make even shorter cases for even lighter loads i.e. the Cowboy Spl. As was said above, you can only shorten Colt cases so far before the case wall gets too thick for the bullet to fit w/o bulging the case. Although Schofields work fine when shortened.

But 45 Specials are used in 45 Colt cylinders w/o any needed modifications whatsoever. And in this thread I learned that they work fine in ACP cylinders, again w/o any needed modifications whatsoever. Plus in ACP cyls there's not that long 'bullet jump' to the chamber throats.

Actually a round of the same dimensions was designed by S&W in 1907 for it's 44 Spl triple lock revolver for the Army trials, called the 45 S&W and 45 Arsenal. As we all know, the Army chose a rimless version of that round for the Browning designed 1911 called 45 ACP and the rest is history.

I don't know where small primer ACP came from, I've just learned about that myself. What a pain.

 

[sunday bill]

I shot the BP loads they termed "wart-hawg" when I bought 1000 45 Specs, so had no CAS-need for shorter cases. My intent was to have cases on hand with the correct wall thickness to seat 45 cast bullets with greatly reduced powder capacity for use in older revolvers I might pick up (already had a commercial New Service in 45 Colt). Thought the reduced loads might extend the life of the older gun.

I hadn't thought to try'em in the ACP cylinder. Thanks to all for that notion.

Ref. the small primers, I didn't think the smalls may be more available. My thoughts were that being able to use either size to load 45 ACPs would double my chances of finding primers if a prolonged primer scarcity occurred. Just doin the math.

 

[edlmann]

Why bother with the Auto Rim cases at all?

I have about 600 or so rounds loaded up.

 

[Meeko]

[/quote]
Meeko,
It's a fair question. Very competitive Cowboy Action shooters (not me) want pipsqueak loads to be able to shoot faster. Light loads in big 45 cases don't work well and can be dangerous. So I used Schofield cases for my moderate loads.

But before Trail Boss came out, the real 'fat' powder, somebody decided to make even shorter cases for even lighter loads i.e. the Cowboy Spl. As was said above, you can only shorten Colt cases so far before the case wall gets too thick for the bullet to fit w/o bulging the case. Although Schofields work fine when shortened.

But 45 Specials are used in 45 Colt cylinders w/o any needed modifications whatsoever. And in this thread I learned that they work fine in ACP cylinders, again w/o any needed modifications whatsoever. Plus in ACP cyls there's not that long 'bullet jump' to the chamber throats.

Actually a round of the same dimensions was designed by S&W in 1909 for it's 44 Spl triple lock revolver for the Army trials, called the 45 S&W and 45 Arsenal. As we all know, the Army chose a rimless version of that round for the Browning designed 1911 called 45 ACP and the rest is history.

I don't know where small primer ACP came from, I've just learned about that myself. What a pain.[/quote]


Thanks Hondo44. Not familiar with the 45 Cowboy however wasn't the 45 Schofield adopted by the US Army in the 1870's as a standard since they could be used in both the SAA and Schofields. Since they had limited Schofields issued that saved on any logistic problems?

I know all about the gamers. I have shot IPSC for years and use to do IDPA. Idpa at least in my area got unrealisticly militant with some that mean well but their only "tactical training" was what they read. IDPA seems to have also become an equipment race. (I was on a FED SWAT team for 10 years and am a Firearms instructor I am tactics out from work so I go to the range off duty to RELAX not be in condition black strokeout step 8)

I dabbled in CAS and I will get more into it since most are there just to have fun and fellowship. Your right about the folks that down load. I'm not dabbling there. I will load just standard loads but thats their choice.
Thanks agian

 

[Ale-8(1)]

I've used the .45 Cowboy Specials in my New Model ACP cylinder and they work just fine.

I even made a half-dozen of my own to try out at first. Cut some Long Colt brass down to ACP length. They worked, but I cannot recommend this because of the case thickness situation Meeko mentions.

Recommend the real things per Ray's link, above.

JMHO

 

[Hondo44]

Thanks Hondo44. ....however wasn't the 45 Schofield adopted by the US Army in the 1870's as a standard since they could be used in both the SAA and Schofields. Since they had limited Schofields issued that saved on any logistic problems?

Meeko,
That's correct. In 1877 the 45 Schofield became the standard issue for all SAs.

 

[CraigC]

There were issues with the rim diameter of the .45S&W in some Colt's and thus, the .45Gov't was born. It was S&W length with the smaller Colt rim. AKA, the first .45 "Short" Colt, for those who deal in unofficial nicknames. :wink: