Best 22Lr ammo for self defense

[CraigC]

We can argue all day long about the actual speed of a .22 -- but they are faster than a 9mm (.38) and since they are smaller will have less surface area to prevent penetration.

We haven't argued at all and there really is nothing to argue about. Unless you're going to insist that you really do get 1400fps out of a 3.5" barrel.

They are not faster than a 9mm. Most high velocity loads are going to hover around 1000fps. Penetration will depend on the bullet itself, its weight and its construction. When I did my penetration testing, a 115gr 9mm Critical Defense went nearly three times as deep as a .22LR 36gr RNHP.

I do this for fun with people all the time that think they "need" a big gun -- place a 2x4 10 yards out and you get 5 seconds. I almost always do more damage to the 2x4 than the .44 mag. Often because the .44 mag shooter gets zero or one hit. I get 11 and at 40 grains that beats 2 hits with a 44 mag. I am not advocating that a .22 is superior to a 9mm, 10mm, .40, .44 mag, .357 mag -- I am advocating that the shooter and the weapon must match up well for maximum effect. I'd give up power for hits. I'd give up power to get someone to practice and enjoy shooting instead of never training and practicing (or owning a gun because the powerful one was so unpleasant to them). I'd chose different weapons for different situations. There is no one-size-fits-all firearm, caliber, magic bullet, etc.

I think much of your logic in justifying the .22LR is flawed.

 

[flash-spyder]

http://graywolfsurvival.com/1869/why-22-best-home-defense-weapon/#comment-42280

They are flawed because each person or situation is different. I cannot fire large fire arms with one hand and hit much (age sucks). I need glasses to see well and don't sleep with them on. I like not being deaf or making my wife deaf

A suppressed Mark III with laser I can put 11 shots to the head for anything in the bedroom. I also have dual hearing protection and glasses so I can switch to a 10mm. And if I deep trouble a relatively available 556 (also a 22).

So for me it is very logical. If we both end up defending ourselves you will be deaf. 75% of the time one round of 22 to the head is a one shot stop. The odds of head shots with one hand in dark no glasses. Much better than a bigger gun. For me and most people. Try a suppressed Mark III. They are so easy. With fairly fast shooting in 5 seconds and with glasses and light at 10 yards I'll make one half dollar size hole. Think face shots.

I would NOT consider a 2 inch barrel mini 22 for carry. 10mm or 40 Glocks are better unless really hot. Then 9mm mouse guns (Boberg) are useful. The Mark with suppressor is huge and impossible to conceal.

 

[flash-spyder]

Also. Do you disagree with mfg and testers on velocity? And do you understand velocity numbers. 1000 fps is sub sonic. 9mm are generally sub sonic. You have high velocity 22 std velocity and sub sonic. Depending on altitude humidity temps speed of sound is mid 1100 (say 1130 - 1170). Slower rounds are sub sonic which is most 9 mm but all 22 is super sonic unless you pay extra for exotic subsonic rounds (I use Eley) which require special 22 to even cycle them (only my target pistols and rifles will cycle them. Normal 22 firearms require supersonic rounds. Use 40 grain solid rounds and try your test. With 7 inch target barrel or the 5.5 inch hunter model. You'd be surprised. Also the nderstand energy. Only energy that remains in the target matters. Penetrating then over penetration Bg reduces energy on the target. Eg if you go through 10 milk jugs 1/10th of the energy was used on each jug. If you penetrate 3 -- say enough to enter the skull and bounce around without exit ... As opposed to a through and through (ask Gabby Gifford) ... Could be much more devastating.

 

[CraigC]

Also. Do you disagree with mfg and testers on velocity? And do you understand velocity numbers. 1000 fps is sub sonic. 9mm are generally sub sonic. You have high velocity 22 std velocity and sub sonic. Depending on altitude humidity temps speed of sound is mid 1100 (say 1130 - 1170). Slower rounds are sub sonic which is most 9 mm but all 22 is super sonic unless you pay extra for exotic subsonic rounds (I use Eley) which require special 22 to even cycle them (only my target pistols and rifles will cycle them. Normal 22 firearms require supersonic rounds. Use 40 grain solid rounds and try your test. With 7 inch target barrel or the 5.5 inch hunter model. You'd be surprised. Also the nderstand energy. Only energy that remains in the target matters. Penetrating then over penetration Bg reduces energy on the target. Eg if you go through 10 milk jugs 1/10th of the energy was used on each jug. If you penetrate 3 -- say enough to enter the skull and bounce around without exit ... As opposed to a through and through (ask Gabby Gifford) ... Could be much more devastating.

You're nearly clueless.

Advertised velocity is from rifle length barrels. Any "high velocity" .22LR load is going to be subsonic out of a handgun, especially a 3.5" barrel.

Virtually any 115-124gr 9mm load is going to be supersonic. Only the 147gr loads can be counted on as subsonic.

What cycles a .22 auto is backthrust, which is a product of chamber pressure. Projectile velocity really has nothing to do with it.

Energy is a meaningless number and your statement about bullets that exit is bunk.

 

[flash-spyder]

Name calling is not required. You correctly pointed out that 9mm is approx 1000 fps (900-1100 is a good wide range) and hot loads will definitely be 1000 fps+

Supersonic is 1130 - 1170 fps depending on factors mentioned. By definition 9mm are subsonic. Have you seen ads for "subsonic 9mm ammo?" No -- because it all is.

.22 is all supersonic even from pretty small barrels and with average rounds -- it is by nature a supersonic round. You pay extra for subsonic. If you had a Mark II Hunter (mine is 5.5 inch) this would be apparent. sub-sonic rounds like Eley are nearly silent (little puff). But standard velocity like mini-mags from cci (ok, hot standard velocity, but nothing like the velocitator) make a most definite supersonic "crack"

147 grain 9mm I think is 100% all subsonic. Some hot +P+ are indeed supersonic. But 9mm is not naturally supersonic, you need hot loads to do it. Especially the typical 147 and 124. Hornandy 115 grain Critical Defense -- their "hot load" is advertised at 1140 fps by Hornandy and Critical Duty (another of their hot rounds is 1110 fps). Neither of these are always supersonic (the 1110 probably never, the 1140 sometimes in ideal conditions). They fire them -- according to their Web site -- FROM RIFLES to get these numbers (carbines to be precise).

BTW -- virtually all semi-autos use the "back thrust" be it gas or piston or something to cycle the weapon, not sure what your point is as the 9mm will do that too.

The definition of supersonic is breaking the sound barrier: scientific number is For objects traveling in dry air of a temperature of 20 °C (68 °F) at sea level, this speed is approximately 343 m/s, 1,125 ft/s ... add any humidity to the air or cold weather and that 1140 Critical Duty will be much slower and the speed of sound different.

Also -- these "hot" bullets are actually the worst of all worlds -- when a bullet breaks the sound barrier it wobbles -- this is why Olympic shooting and target shooting with .22 are done with sub sonic rounds -- not for noise, for accuracy. So pushing a bullet just to the point of wobble and hurting accuracy ... why not stay 15 fps slower and not wobble? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersonic_speed

Most .22 LR rounds will stay subsonic if fired thru a barrel less than 4". Most, not the Velocitator which is like a +P+ is to 9mm. Through a 5.5" Hunter or 7" Target they will surely go supersonic. A Ruger Mark II Target with one of the slowest .22 LR standard round clocks 1218fps -- supersonic all day long no matter the conditions: http://guns.armsrack.com/l/471/Ruger-Mark-III-Target-22-LR

I think where we may be getting confused is energy versus velocity. A .22 is a lot faster. And lighter. So a 9mm has more muzzle energy with less velocity.

These facts can easily be pulled from Hornandy and other manufacturers, from Ruger, etc.

Energy delivered to the target is everything! If you miss it is zero and I presume you agree that is useless. If you have a powerful round that goes through a person and it has X Energy to hit a target ... and it passes through the target and then continues through drywall and another person ... the energy delivered to the first person is not 100% of the energy the round had to offer. That is just a fact. Only the energy that remains in the target matters to the target ... if finished with the target and it drops to the floor or penetrates a wall -- there will be no different outcome to the target. Have you ever noticed that the most powerful guns with big hollow points don't do any more damage to a paper target than a pellet gun? Think of why? Because the paper did not absorb any energy, it was all sent down range.

A .22 rattling around a skull can do a lot of damage. 75% of head shots with .22 rimfire are one shot stops. .22 rimfire had killed more people in USA than all other calibers combined. A .22 rates high on accuracy and needing the least number of shots to stop an opponent. And all the test suffer from a serious flaw -- they only count hits. I assure you that hits from my .22 will far exceed any hits you make with your 9mm. And a fast .22 with a hard bullet at 40 grains will penetrate very far. FBI Standard is 12" but the .22 can often do 15+" from a handgun.

If you were close I'd easily proved it to you. I have dispatched top target shooters with .38 Super custom pistols (1911 style) that have one state-wide matches with an out of the box Mark III Target. For speed and accuracy. If we set targets up at 25 yards I will bet you that my spread will no exceed a 1/2 dollar -- your 9mm will not hit the black every time. Nor a tricked .38 Super for that matter. And I am talking 5 second time. In fact, I would bet I put more grains of lead into the black than you do with the 9mm. I use the 25 yard rapid fire targets ... with the .22 I use that tiny little black spot on the upper left (can't be more than an inch). And I'm getting old, slow, and not nearly as good as I once was (don't see as well even with glasses).

You might find this FBI report interesting http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf although you don't seem to accept science (as in 1000 fps is not supersonic), that most pistol 9mm ammo mfg state their ammo is subsonic, that nobody sells subsonic 9mm mostly because they all are (ditto .45 BTW). You don't seem to understand velocity and transfer of energy too well and seem unwilling to learn. Maybe the FBI can convince you. Note that they said a .22 head shot is one of the best ways to incapacitate ... just not very good for a duty gun as teaching officers to haul out large target guns and go for head shots is absurd and they have concerns about shoot through say a windshield (I have no encountered one of those in my bedroom).

Instead of name calling do some reading and learn something. If you really want a supersonic handgun try .357 Magnum or 10mm (Double Tap 200 grain will do it!). But as the FBI report says -- expansion from a handgun is rare anyway. All these fancy bullets people waste their money on ... an FMJ could often be better. And a solid .22 is pretty good if you can place all shots in the head with one hand and without your glasses ... it will do the job. Terrible carry though I'd break my nose pulling it from a holster!

 

[CraigC]

How old are you? Because I feel like I'm engaging in an argument with a clueless teenager that learned everything he knows from the internet but has ZERO actual knowledge. Suffice to say that most of what you state is nonsense and you have A LOT to learn. Sorry but I don't argue with kids.

 

[mohavesam]

Is the 22 any good for grizzly bears?

 

[flash-spyder]

Grizzly Bears? Of course not. The question asked what is best ammo for self defense. Answer is 40 grain solid ammo to get maximum penetration on a round without a lot of mass (plenty of speed). It devolved into a guy who things 1000 fps is super sonic and energy that passes through the target is somehow magically transmitted to the target. And then calls names when he is backed into a corner. Mfg display their fps and what barrel -- I give him Hornandy and their top self defense and duty ammo with their own numbers (fired from a carbine) ... subsonic or in one case possibly at the border. In a handgun, forget it. Remember history ... a .38 and 9mm and a .357 are more or less the same diameter. The difference is that when the .38 was not powerful enough people invented the .357. The 9mm is MUCH shorter and less powerful and always will be (only so much powder you can put in a small shell casing). I see silly people all the time saying that 9mm is more powerful than .357 -- cannot be true. Ditto 10mm vs .40 -- 10mm and .40 are the same case except a .40 is shorter. Less powder. One can find examples of hot .40 versus light loads in a 10mm and "prove" a .40 is more powerful but that is not good science. All else equal a 10mm will always exceed a .40, a .357 a .38, a .38 a 9mm and so forth. Where it gets interesting is when the projectile weighs nothings. I have seen some 2400 fps 9mm rounds. 50 grains. A .22 with .40 grains and a solid core is easy to shoot fast and accurately. Within a bedroom where 20 feet is likely the largest distance and with a laser -- dumping 11 rounds into a face is not hard. that is 440 grains. With one hand. No glasses. And I won't be deaf. So in some cases that is a nice round to have. I also keep a 10mm in case things look like the .22 won't cut it. I'll sacrifice my eardrums only if I have to. And truthfully, I'd rather go a few feet and pick up my carbine if things get real bad. https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=505764

If I can do the job without hearing loss, why not.

As to questioning my supposed experience -- certified teacher/trainer for firearms, for adults and youth. For 50 years now. Regional fast-fire pistol champion and slow fire target. State and national rankings. All fast fire. The slow fire target I am not as good at even though the accuracy is actually much higher -- some people are just amazing at slow fire. I probably will have to move into the old guys classes soon as I am not as good as I was. I assure you that if you want to be accurate -- a Mark III .22 is much more accurate than ANY 9mm or .40 or 10mm at the same firing rate. Heck -- I can get 2-3 rounds off before one can get a 10mm back on target. I also compete with .22 rifle and am moving up. I have use a .22 rifle to hunt deer (shoot them in the ear). I think I outrank you in experience Mr. Old Revolver guy and there is no shooting competition you could beat me in. None. Zero. Never happen. And you won't beat me in science either ... anyone that says 1000 fps is super sonic needs a science class. Anyone that says that a round that passes through multiple targets gave full energy to the first target needs a science class.

So I will repeat -- the subject here was which is the best 22LR for self defense and my answer remains 40 grain fairly fast solid bullet (like CCI mini mag in a hand gun or perhaps a velocitator in a rifle, still playing with that). It is best with a suppressor as you won't damage your hearing and tactically you can still hear. If 2-3 BG are in the house and you take our one in your bedroom ... and our now functionally deaf ... how well does that work tactically? Not well I assure you. By then I'll have the 10mm in my hand and reach for the AR ... and dispatch the other two. Whom I will be able to hear and I will have my hearing protection on when firing the 10mm or the carbine. That is my system and I think a valid one. Not for everyone. For me. The advantage of the solid core 40 grain is you likely can achieve the 12-15 inches that the FBI recommends, and head shots are easy to make and almost always one shot stop (75% or so). Even better if the other 2 BG don't hear the first go down ...