A Plumbing Hint

[caryc]

In the bathroom the other day I noticed some water movement in the toilet bowl. Took the lid off the tank and sure enough the water level was right at the overflow pipe level. I had a new replacement valve in the storage shed so I installed it.

About an hour later the water level was again at the overflow pipe level. I cleaned the new valve per instructions and another hour later the water was again leaking. I had used these type valves for over ten years with no problems. But no way could I get it to stop leaking. I couldn't even tell where the leak was coming from.

Finally getting desperate I turned the fill valve under the tank off and opened it about a half turn. All the way open was about three turns. That half turn open did the trick. The new valve is no longer leaking and I really don't notice the tank filling any slower than it did with the valve all the way open. My well pump shuts off at about 55-60 pounds. I don't know why the old valves did not leak with that water inlet valve opened all the way but it's working as it should now. Just a hint in case anyone else runs into the same problem. Below is a picture of the fill valve I'm talking about.

 

[mohavesam]

Those valves are pounded out & packaged a hundred times a minute by uneducated children in China. I cannot imagine how you got hold of a bad one... ;)

 

[Pat-inCO]

My problem is/was with the flapper valve at the bottom. It went from
working fine to not at all in one flush.

Went over to Ace Hardware (yes, I know there are less expensive places,
but they are close) paid $5 for a new one, installed it in two minutes, spent
several minutes getting the chain (YES, this one has a chain in place of
the plastic connector) adjusted (too long) so it would not be in the way.

It now refills in the same amount of time, but flushes MUCH faster, thus
works much better than it has in years. 8)

And to think I could have paid a plumber ten times that much, to fix it
when he got around to getting here (my guess . . . a week or three, all
the while dumping water down the drain).

Ain't home ownership fun? :roll:
(FAR better than the alternative) :D

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

Cary, I've used those valves for close to 30 years, and despite Sam's ever so predictable negativity, I think they're arguably the best on the market. (They were actually made in Corona, CA for quite a while--a client worked in their manufacturing facility--though they've branched our worldwide today.) What I learned early on is they're one of those products which really DO work better if we disobey "The Man Code" and read the instructions first! I've had a couple that took more than one "cleaning cycle" to get detritus out from the installation itself so they didn't keep running. Did you do that just the one time, or several times?

Otherwise, since mine have all worked like your previous ones, on full pressure from the water supply valve, maybe a quick check of all the adjustments would bring something to light on the pressure situation.

https://www.fluidmaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/400a_installation_instructions_english.pdf

They've got a lot of troubleshooting stuff on the website along with the instruction sheets, too.

Rick C

 

[GunnyGene]

Hi,

Cary, I've used those valves for close to 30 years, and despite Sam's ever so predictable negativity, I think they're arguably the best on the market. (They were actually made in Corona, CA for quite a while--a client worked in their manufacturing facility--though they've branched our worldwide today.) What I learned early on is they're one of those products which really DO work better if we disobey "The Man Code" and read the instructions first! I've had a couple that took more than one "cleaning cycle" to get detritus out from the installation itself so they didn't keep running. Did you do that just the one time, or several times?

Otherwise, since mine have all worked like your previous ones, on full pressure from the water supply valve, maybe a quick check of all the adjustments would bring something to light on the pressure situation.

https://www.fluidmaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/400a_installation_instructions_english.pdf

They've got a lot of troubleshooting stuff on the website along with the instruction sheets, too.

Rick C

Never had any of these kind of problems with the old out-house. Ain't technology great? :wink:

 

[Rick Courtright]

Never had any of these kind of problems with the old out-house. Ain't technology great? :wink:

Hi,

As long as gravity keeps working! I'd hate to be in there the day the gravity goes out... ;)

Rick C

 

[coach]

Much more convenient in the winter too. :)

 

[GunnyGene]

Never had any of these kind of problems with the old out-house. Ain't technology great? :wink:

Hi,

As long as gravity keeps working! I'd hate to be in there the day the gravity goes out... ;)

Rick C

Ode to the little brown shack out back. :D :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cSfwq5kjEE

 

[caryc]

Hi,

Cary, I've used those valves for close to 30 years, and despite Sam's ever so predictable negativity, I think they're arguably the best on the market. (They were actually made in Corona, CA for quite a while--a client worked in their manufacturing facility--though they've branched our worldwide today.) What I learned early on is they're one of those products which really DO work better if we disobey "The Man Code" and read the instructions first! I've had a couple that took more than one "cleaning cycle" to get detritus out from the installation itself so they didn't keep running. Did you do that just the one time, or several times?

Otherwise, since mine have all worked like your previous ones, on full pressure from the water supply valve, maybe a quick check of all the adjustments would bring something to light on the pressure situation.

https://www.fluidmaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/400a_installation_instructions_english.pdf

They've got a lot of troubleshooting stuff on the website along with the instruction sheets, too.

Rick C

I took the cap off of it put a cup over it and flushed it several time as per instructions. Cleaned the rubber inside the cap also. Nothing worked. As for getting everything set right...set it to the same height as the old one. There is nothing else to set. Same valve old to new. The old one must have been over 8 years or older. Never had a problem with it, that's why I had a new one just like it on standby in the storage shed. I think I did remove the cap on the old one once and flush it when it leaked. It worked fine after that. I just put the new one on because the one in there was so old and I had the new one on hand.

 

[eveled]

It's important to time the valve, so that the bowl is filled just before the tank is filled. Or you just waste water down the drain.

I fixed and adjusted both toilets in my house and cut my water bill in half.

 

[blume357]

Another hint... I had a toilet that had a slow leak for months... replaced the flapper valve twice... you could look in the bowl and see water running in very slowly and about every 10 minutes you would here the valve open up and run for about 5 seconds... I finally realized that I had taken that little 1/4 hose that comes off the valve and goes in the overflow tube and it was sitting down in the tube below the water fill line and so was syphoning water from the tank down into this tube. Clipping that hose to the top of the tube fixed the problem... but about drove me crazy before I realized this was the problem.

 

[DGW1949]

In the bathroom the other day I noticed some water movement in the toilet bowl. Took the lid off the tank and sure enough the water level was right at the overflow pipe level. I had a new replacement valve in the storage shed so I installed it.

About an hour later the water level was again at the overflow pipe level. I cleaned the new valve per instructions and another hour later the water was again leaking. I had used these type valves for over ten years with no problems. But no way could I get it to stop leaking. I couldn't even tell where the leak was coming from.

Finally getting desperate I turned the fill valve under the tank off and opened it about a half turn. All the way open was about three turns. That half turn open did the trick. The new valve is no longer leaking and I really don't notice the tank filling any slower than it did with the valve all the way open. My well pump shuts off at about 55-60 pounds. I don't know why the old valves did not leak with that water inlet valve opened all the way but it's working as it should now. Just a hint in case anyone else runs into the same problem. Below is a picture of the fill valve I'm talking about.

Myself, I like the old-school fill valves much better because their big float and long metal arm combine to put more closing force against the valve itself. Plus, every pressure regulator that I've ever bough came preset to maintain 40 pounds of pressure, not 60...which when you think about it, means that in your case, you're dealing with a 50% overload to start with...which ain't exactly helping things either.

Just a FWIW.

DGW

 

[Bull Barrel]

As for getting everything set right...set it to the same height as the old one

There is your problem. The old one was set to overfill and you set the new one to do the same.
All that was needed was to lower the float setting.

 

[caryc]

As for getting everything set right...set it to the same height as the old one

There is your problem. The old one was set to overfill and you set the new one to do the same.
All that was needed was to lower the float setting.

Wow...you seriously think I didn't try that? :shock: :shock: :shock:

 

[Bull Barrel]

No. Because you didnt say you did. Who do youthink I am? The Great Carnak? :-)

 

[Jimbo357mag]

55-60 pounds of pressure sounds like. I think most utilities run 25-30 pounds in their systems.

 

[caryc]

No. Because you didnt say you did. Who do youthink I am? The Great Carnak? :-)

No, I thought that since I was able to read and write and use this forum that you would take it for granted that I was not a total moron incapable of rational thought.

You didn't ask me if I adjusted the float. You were in such a hurry to save the day by telling me what I did wrong. Evidently you thought I was just too stupid to try adjusting the float.

 

[caryc]

55-60 pounds of pressure sounds like. I think most utilities run 25-30 pounds in their systems.

I am on a well. It has a holding tank. It builds that much pressure so you don't have to deal with slow running low pressure before the pump kicks on again and builds it back up. You don't want the pump kicking on and off too often.

So obviously there is not 55-60 pounds in my system at all times.

 

[JFB]

55-60 pounds of pressure sounds like. I think most utilities run 25-30 pounds in their systems.

I have seen well over 90 psig from my utility! I use a pressure reducing regulator to drop it to 30 psi though. (adjust to just give a good shower :) )

 

[Bull Barrel]

No. Because you didnt say you did. Who do youthink I am? The Great Carnak? :-)

No, I thought that since I was able to read and write and use this forum that you would take it for granted that I was not a total moron incapable of rational thought.

You didn't ask me if I adjusted the float. You were in such a hurry to save the day by telling me what I did wrong. Evidently you thought I was just too stupid to try adjusting the float.

You said it. Not me. I never said or implied it.
You are too quick to play the victim. Please excuuuuuse the $@&% outta me.

 

[caryc]

No. Because you didnt say you did. Who do youthink I am? The Great Carnak? :-)

No, I thought that since I was able to read and write and use this forum that you would take it for granted that I was not a total moron incapable of rational thought.

You didn't ask me if I adjusted the float. You were in such a hurry to save the day by telling me what I did wrong. Evidently you thought I was just too stupid to try adjusting the float.

You said it. Not me. I never said or implied it.
You are too quick to play the victim. Please excuuuuuse the $@&% outta me.

I said I set the valve at the same height as the old one that worked for ten years. I said nothing about setting the float. The valve body itself is adjustable from 9 to 14 inches in height.

You never asked about the float, you just said that's the problem.

 

[eveled]

I see 80 to 110 lbs street pressure all the time. Anything over 80 needs a PRV (pressure reducing valve). I usually set them for 60. I don't think over pressure is what caused your problem.

 

[Bull Barrel]

[/quote]

No, I thought that since I was able to read and write and use this forum that you would take it for granted that I was not a total moron incapable of rational thought.

You didn't ask me if I adjusted the float. You were in such a hurry to save the day by telling me what I did wrong. Evidently you thought I was just too stupid to try adjusting the float.[/quote]
You said it. Not me. I never said or implied it.
You are too quick to play the victim. Please excuuuuuse the $@&% outta me.[/quote]

I said I set the valve at the same height as the old one that worked for ten years. I said nothing about setting the float. The valve body itself is adjustable from 9 to 14 inches in height.

You never asked about the float, you just said that's the problem.[/quote]

You said you set the valve the same as the old. The float regulates the valve and is part of the valve assembly. You set it the same as the old. Your words.
I went by what you said....twice.
Like I said......excuuuuuuuuse the @××# outta me.

 

[blume357]

I see 80 to 110 lbs street pressure all the time. Anything over 80 needs a PRV (pressure reducing valve). I usually set them for 60. I don't think over pressure is what caused your problem.

Y'all keep saying that... mine has been 110lbs for a good long while... I've been thinking about putting a regulator on it... do they sell these at the HomeDepot? I see them all the time while crawling under houses.... but never thought about putting one on mine until recently.

 

[JFB]

google says Homedepot has them. I get mine from a plumbing supply place though.

I would recommend putting a filter up stream so that it has the higher pressure accross it and to keep the regulator clean.

Down stream I would also recomend an gallon size bladder type expansion tank precharged about 80% of what you set the running pressure to. this will give the regulator time to close off when you quickly shut off a faucet.

(and off course isolation valves to allow you to change out the filter)

 

[eveled]

Blume,
The PRV will help your faucets and valves last longer. If you install a PRV, a potable water expansion tank is mandatory. It should be pre charged to the pressure you have the PRV set to.

It is there mostly for thermal expansion, but may help with water hammer. Every fast acting solenoid valve should have a shock suppressor close to it.

 

[JFB]

with "city water" I thought you can just slightly close the isolation valve at the meter to lower the pressure, like CaryC did for his tank fill.

 

[caryc]

with "city water" I thought you can just slightly close the isolation valve at the meter to lower the pressure, like CaryC did for his tank fill.

I'm not so sure that lowered the pressure. It did however, lower the volume of water running through that shut off valve. But lowering the pressure in the toilet fill valve? I just don't know. I'm not a college educated engineer. When the toilet tank is full and the valve shuts off, isn't the standing pressure the same as with the shut off valve wide open?

Perhaps someone here can answer that question.

 

[eveled]

You did not change the pressure by closing the valve partially. You can have a 100psi drip. Pressure is pressure not flow or volume.

 

[caryc]

You did not change the pressure by closing the valve partially. You can have a 100psi drip. Pressure is pressure not flow or volume.

That's what I thought. The standing pressure is still the same.