writwing
Single-Sixer
Thinking of getting a US Firearms Double Eagle 3" Birds Head and am trying to decide between 45C and 44 Spl. I own firearms in both so just curious if either caliber would be advantageous over the other.
45Colt vs 44 Spl
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J Miller
Blackhawk
If you load your own ammo = no.
If you buy factory ammo = yes.
Joe
If you buy factory ammo = yes.
Joe
Personal choice. I too am thinking about getting a USFA premium SA .... And I am leaning toward the .45 Colt only because it is an original chambering from back in 1870s.... The .44Spec was introduced in the early 1900s. On the other hand, the .44Spec is perfect cartridge for the smaller frame. Where as the .45 Colt doesn't come into it's own unless you have a Ruger BH. That said I only shoot normal loads anyway so that point is moot.... Your choice!
Bucks Owin
Hunter
Yep, the .44 Spl vs .45LC nontroversy has been beaten into oblivion...Depends on the platforms. :wink:
I've been looking at the same gun and I noticed that you can get an extra cylinder as in 44-40/44Special convertible.
If I could only have one, it would be the 44-40
If I could only have one, it would be the 44-40
CraigC
Hawkeye
In the Colt SAA, its replicas like the USFA or any other mid-frame platform, the .44Spl has the advantage. It can be pushed to higher velocities, with a greater safety margin and is more efficient. By efficiency, I mean that the cavernous .45 case is a lot of wasted space at these pressure levels. The .44 will propel the same weight cast bullet to the same velocity with at least 15% less powder. Shouldn't be an issue in the USFA but the .45Colt typically has overly generous chambers. Both of which eat up pressure that would otherwise be spent to propel the projectile. The .45 is a fine cartridge and is plenty potent, even in sixguns of this strength level but objectively speaking, the .44 is really the better choice.
ProfessorWes
Hawkeye
I'd go with .44 SPL, since I already own one of the Lipsey's Flattops in that caliber and don't own anything in .45.
Unfortunately, a new USFA isn't in the cards for me right now, since I'm probably going to have to buy a new car shortly and the purchase price of a USFA sixgun would cover most of the sales tax on it, or at least four car payments.
Unfortunately, a new USFA isn't in the cards for me right now, since I'm probably going to have to buy a new car shortly and the purchase price of a USFA sixgun would cover most of the sales tax on it, or at least four car payments.
mike-c
Single-Sixer
Greetings,
The 44 Russian was brought out by Smith & Wesson in, 1870, it was a prized cartridge for target and self defense. The 44 special came out in, 1907, to provide more power. The 45 Colt is a grand old round, but I much prefer the special. There is an extra margin of safety because in the same size gun, the 44 special has thicker cylinder walls.
Elmer Kieth blew up several 45's while trying to hot rod the cartridge. At that point, he started working with the 44 special. Due to his experimentation, Smith & Wesson brought out the 44 magnum. Just something to consider before making a choice.
Mike 8)
The 44 Russian was brought out by Smith & Wesson in, 1870, it was a prized cartridge for target and self defense. The 44 special came out in, 1907, to provide more power. The 45 Colt is a grand old round, but I much prefer the special. There is an extra margin of safety because in the same size gun, the 44 special has thicker cylinder walls.
Elmer Kieth blew up several 45's while trying to hot rod the cartridge. At that point, he started working with the 44 special. Due to his experimentation, Smith & Wesson brought out the 44 magnum. Just something to consider before making a choice.
Mike 8)
5of7
Hunter
CraigC said:
I agree to that and would only add that if one wishes to load a lighter load, say a 250 grainer at 800 fps or so, the .44 Sp. is a little easier to get a good consistent load (smaller standard deviations) because of less unused space between the bullet and the powder charge.
While it's true the 44SPL is the way to go if your looking to get close to magnum power out of a midsize frame gun the 45 Colt can be made to shoot just fine with standard pressure loads. I shoot two Colt SAA's with short barrels. One gun with a 3 1/2" barrel and one with a 2" barrel. I handload the 45 Colt loads with .454 dia. bullets and use medium fast powders and accuracy is just fine. I also have 45ACP cylinders to use in these guns with .452 dia. bullets in which they are at there best. I believe USFA will fit 45ACP cylinders upon request.
bogus bill
Hunter
I like and have some of both. With the 45 colts I dont know why, but it`s a iffy proprosistion to find one with a tight bore. Colt cant seem to get it right, of all people and smith had problems too untill the later era of the 25-5. You need to read this article by john linbaugh on the .45 colt.
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm
WESHOOT2
Hunter
I am more than curious as to the perceived logic of this claim.
Perhaps the proper term is "subjectively"?
WESHOOT2 said:
WESHOOT2, you may be right but I'm not so sure. In a Colt or midframe Ruger it's a pretty objective observation that .44s CAN be run up "higher," with a wider margin of safety/error without the same concerns relative to .45s. While he may (or may not) also harbor a personal opinion or feeling that .44 is better, I don't believe there is any emotion or "judgment" (necessarily) involved in that stated assessment. That is NOT to say, as another poster correctly pointed out, that .45s need to be run right up to those (its) margins to provide decent performance, but instead can be quite/sufficiently powerful using less-than-maximum (meaning including or approaching "Ruger only" loadings),...and therefore it too is or can be a very versatile cartridge. It obviously is. However, as a hypothetical exercise, in the midframe guns, again including the SAA, one can *almost* run a specific .44 Sp cartridge of unknown developmental history/make-up (other than you know its from a reputable maker who likely carries all loadings) without concern. Not that it would or should be an every day occurence, but--continuing the hypothetical exercise--I'm not sure I'd want to just reach into a box of "unknown load" .45s and do the same.
This "exercise" needn't remain a hypothetical one. Over the years, I'm probably not the only one here who's reached into my bag of goodies at the range or in the field for a handful of cartridges, not knowing--except usually or often knowing the "grainage" on a rifle cartridge--what I've got exactly. All I really knew was, if I placed it there, it's from a reputable source and not junk.
Sum up: Assuming the shooter wants to have the full performance range and flexibility to shoot virtually the full gambit of loads "reasonably possible" with his/her selected cartridge, it appears--objectively--the .44 Special would be the optimal choice for the midframe guns, including the Colt SAA and even the USFAs with their typically* larger-than-Colt cylinder. (* that is, other than its relatively recent smaller cylinder'd "1st Gen Colt" replica). However, as at least one poster said, not all .45 shooters would fit the above description, and for them it is the appropriate/preferred cartridge for the gun and vice versa.
CraigC
Hawkeye
No, I said what I meant and meant what I said.WESHOOT2 said:
Objectively speaking, the .44Spl is the better cartridge for the platform. It has a broader range of suitable loads, is much more efficient, can utilize longer bullets, is easier to handload for and has better bullet selection than the .38-40 or .44-40 and typically has more consistent dimensions than the .45Colt. There is a very good reason why folks have been converting Old Model Rugers to .44Spl, rather than .45Colt for all the decades since Skeeter first had his built. It strikes a perfect balance between cartridge and sixgun.
Subjectively speaking, lots of folks have an unreasonable fondness for the .45Colt.
Bucks Owin
Hunter
CraigC said:
I remember when we had quite the bruhaha over this... :lol: But I've kinda "come around" to your thinking re: smaller platform=44 Spl... :shock:
When you stuff the .45LC with heavy bullets and W296 then the "inefficient" case becomes just right* and the .45LC gets lifted to big bore "magnum" territory, completely out of the .44 Spl's league...That I hold firm to! (And yes, the .45 Ruger has been saddled with such crappy chamber/throat dimensions over the years that it's a wonder it shoots as well as it does!
) But I've got to admit, I've developed a slight hankering for a .44 NMFT...(Gotta do something with all the RCBS 250K bullets I' ve squirreled away! :lol: )
JM revised O... :wink:
*Although my .45 does just fine thank you, with small charges of some powders, eg Green Dot/250 gr...
CraigC
Hawkeye
That's the big difference. In a strong, large frame sixgun, you fill that big case with slow burning powder and the .45 becomes a whole nuther critter.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a mid-frame .45 either, I have two of them and would love to have one of the new flat-top convertibles.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a mid-frame .45 either, I have two of them and would love to have one of the new flat-top convertibles.
Bucks Owin
Hunter
CraigC said:That's the big difference. In a strong, large frame sixgun, you fill that big case with slow burning powder and the .45 becomes a whole nuther critter.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a mid-frame .45 either, I have two of them and would love to have one of the new flat-top convertibles.
Wonder if the .45 FT has proper "snug" dimensions, or 1870's BP charge holes and DIY throats? :?
CraigC
Hawkeye
Those guns should be as well made as the other flat-tops, produced on the new CNC machinery. Chambers cut one at a time. Probably a coin toss.
CraigC said:No, I said what I meant and meant what I said.WESHOOT2 said:
Objectively speaking, the .44Spl is the better cartridge for the platform. It has a broader range of suitable loads, is much more efficient, can utilize longer bullets, is easier to handload for and has better bullet selection than the .38-40 or .44-40 and typically has more consistent dimensions than the .45Colt. There is a very good reason why folks have been converting Old Model Rugers to .44Spl, rather than .45Colt for all the decades since Skeeter first had his built. It strikes a perfect balance between cartridge and sixgun.
Subjectively speaking, lots of folks have an unreasonable fondness for the .45Colt.
Wow, I think very subjective. --definition -- "relating to properties or specific conditions of the mind as distinguished from general or universal experience"
Lets be reasonable here Craig, if you are are saying the 44 special can be more powerful on a smaller frame and cylinder gun than the New Model Blackhawk, I think you made your point. More versatile? more efficient? more customized, and definitely not wider loved! Think again!
It does not, and never will, have the long lived love affair, or popularity with shooters, as the 45 Colt! there never has been, or probably, will never be as many strictly (meaning non magnum compatible) 44 special owners as 45 Colt owners, PERIOD! In my more than 40 years of handgunning, have known far more shooters "personally" looking for one of the many 357 magnum built NM or OM Blachawks, to build a 45 custom revolver on than any other caliber to customize!
#1 (more customized) I would, and have, researched custom guns built on Blackhawks, new and old, and according to three very popular custom gunsmiths, Clements, Linebaugh, Reeder, 45 caliber Blackhawks are there most in demand, and most all for the 45 Colt cylinder. Even the guns built for 454 are said to be used primarily for 45 Colt. This is not a three month or 2 year fad, but over all top calibers ask for. They all will tell you, from time to time, the have a run on a certain caliber or conversion, but year after year, the 45 Colt keeps it's popularity. And undesputably no other cartridge has had the success or popularity for as many years as the 45 Colt has! FACT! over a century!
#2 (more efficient) Probably because of the fact that for the most part, they are made for SHOOTERS who RELOAD there own ammo, even the factory made 45 Colts, are probably owned by people who roll there own. I believe the last I checked you can load the 45 Colt with Loads from 185 grains to over 400 grains, pretty versatile, by most non bias, shooters standards. You can't get get much better than that for flexibility, even grouse can, and have, be taken with this Old favorite, with the little 200 grain swc, or rnd nose, cast slug, with a light charge of ww-231, or red dot, without destroying it. While at the same time, this cartridge, in the appropriate firearm, can take any animal on this planet, and has! Most likely the only caliber that out numbers it in revolvers built, is the 38 spcl., or 357 magnum, neither of which I would consider as being near as flexible, ("broader range of suggestible loads") Unless you consider published as suitable! Or being able to do a single thing better, such as use less powder with a particular load?
#3 (unreasonable fondness) I think the main reason it has kept it's popularity, and never fell off the manufacturing line, is the fact that no other handgun cartridge has been around as many years as the 45 Colt and been this successful in it's versatility, for so many decades, (small game, big game, self defense, target). There have been those that come and go big and small, everyone has to run out and buy one, then all the sudden they have fulfilled the FAD, but the fabulous 45 just keeps selling, day after day, year after year, decade after decade, and now century after century, thats not an unreasonable fondness. Is it?
Now for me even in a SAA platform, it would be the 45 Colt, I am bias, I have a fondness of the 45 caliber, I love it's ability, and am intrigued by it's history, and the men that made it famous!!! Elmer didn't give up on the caliber, he simply had to settle for less, since there was no frame capable at the time to harness it's power! So he setteled for second best!! Aren't we fortunate that we have the many platforms we do today, to take advantage of such a fine, and powerful historic achievement as the mighty 45 Colt cartridge. No other pistol cartridge, has held the length of time, with the following of this time tested, power house, that finally grew into its own.
Bucks Owin
Hunter
Anybody'll tell you I'm a diehard .45LC fan but I can see the .44 Spl as a good "little frame" big bore. Above all, I'm with (I think it was) Col Townsend Whelen who said "only accurate guns are interesting" and I'll take any sixgun that fits that criterion, regardless of the size of hole at the muzzle! The .45 LC can fill that bill, witness Seyfried's MOA custom, but it'll take more "messin' with" when we're talking .45 Ruger...(At least mine) But if I had to own one caliber, well, I have no doubts what it'd be.... :wink:
Two likely unnecessary centavos...
Two likely unnecessary centavos...
CraigC
Hawkeye
Sorry wildcatter but you cannot have a comparison between the two cartridges with zero regard for platforms. You completely disregard platform in your very compelling, but somewhat over simplified post.
We're not talking about large frame guns. As such, the following is completely irrelevant:
All the rest of it is purely subjective romance, bordering on Kool Aid consumption.
In the guns in question, it is the .44Spl that has greater versatility. It pushes bullets of the same weight 100-150fps faster and does so with a greater safety margin. It is less often affected by ambiguous blackpowder era dimensions.
Settle for less? Second best??? Not even close!!!
I have gone out of my way not to poop on the .45Colt. I only ask that others do the same. :roll:
We're not talking about large frame guns. As such, the following is completely irrelevant:
wildcatter said:
wildcatter said:
wildcatter said:
All the rest of it is purely subjective romance, bordering on Kool Aid consumption.
In the guns in question, it is the .44Spl that has greater versatility. It pushes bullets of the same weight 100-150fps faster and does so with a greater safety margin. It is less often affected by ambiguous blackpowder era dimensions.
I find it very interesting that so many .45Colt shooters are so willing to poop on the .44's. Without the .44Spl, there would be no .44Mag. Without the .44Mag, there would be no large frame .45Colt for you to play with.wildcatter said:
Settle for less? Second best??? Not even close!!!
I have gone out of my way not to poop on the .45Colt. I only ask that others do the same. :roll:
WESHOOT2
Hunter
All good points.
It's true there are many suspect 45s I'd not presume to push, unlike the more modern 44 Special.
The 45 Colt remains the more effective cartridge. Effective terminally.
It's true there are many suspect 45s I'd not presume to push, unlike the more modern 44 Special.
The 45 Colt remains the more effective cartridge. Effective terminally.
AzRebel
Single-Sixer
I love the .45 Colt, and shoot it quite a bit...but I do so in a full sized revolver.
In the mid-framed guns, I'd go with the .44 special. Not that I'd push it all that hard; if that's my goal (which it is at times), I go for a full sized .45 Colt. The .44 special offers quite a bit though, in a packable and easy to shoot package.
All depends on what you want, and what you want to do with it. For most uses, the .44 special is plenty. I just prefer the .45 Colt for those few times when it isn't.
Daryl
In the mid-framed guns, I'd go with the .44 special. Not that I'd push it all that hard; if that's my goal (which it is at times), I go for a full sized .45 Colt. The .44 special offers quite a bit though, in a packable and easy to shoot package.
All depends on what you want, and what you want to do with it. For most uses, the .44 special is plenty. I just prefer the .45 Colt for those few times when it isn't.
Daryl
CraigC said:
I did say you were right about the smaller frame guns, but then I have been reminded, that even though you can load a given weight to a higher velocity, you are doing it with higher pressure. But you seem to leave out the FACT -- "you can not load the same weight bullet, in the 44 special, regardless of frame size, without increasing pressure substantially"!! so to keep weight and speed in order here, don't confuse lighter weigh with more speed, as more power. I don't deny the fact that the 44 special is an excellent round, just don't try to say it is a superior, or advantageous over a 45 Colt. If you put the same amount of powder in the 45 Colt as the 44 special with the same weight bullet, the 45 Colt will be slower but the pressure will also be much lower!
Physics 101: The 357 mag is a much higher velocity load, with a lot more reassure than a 45ACP. But I will still take the 45 ACP any day, for protection from 2 legged to 4 legged critters, if I want real stopping power. That is exactly what would happen if the GP-100 could be had in 45 caliber, ACP or Colt, Mine would be traded in a hartbeat, and if it was only offered in 44 special, that is what I would have!! But one could still fantasize about ba Five shot 45 Colt in my 4" GP. and I will.
I was not the one that brought the Blackhawk frame up, you mentioned how demanding the custom 44 special was with regaurds to Skeeter starting a "FAD", and how so many had to have it, certainly short lived if it ever did rate as greater interest and more requested than 45 Colt, because that aint happening today. Altho it may for a short while, as the introduction of the latest single action are creating a surge of interest again. But remember this, the 45 Colt has been tested thru time, and seems to continue to be a top consideration from, cowboy shooters to big and dangerous game hunters. It has been over powered, time and time again, but for over a century it has stood strong, will continue to stay well rooted as a top big bore favorite for many, if not most.
I really doubt anyone needed a 44 mag to generate a frame that would handle a full power 45 Colt??? That is almost as ridiculous as saying, we needed John Linebaugh to make a 500 Linebagh, for Smit & wishon to develop a frame that is as cumbersome as a 50 caliber rifle, so we could shoot a 460?? :roll:
