45 LC in a 454 Casull Cylinder

[DRAM40A1]

I’ve acquired a SBH 454 Casull recently and have worked up,,,,,,well down, a few loads. I started with 250 grain XTP because that’s what I had on hand. I have 260 and 305 cast from Matt’s Bullets. The 305 are pretty tough, even at starting loads.
I know you can shoot 45 Long Colt and clean after but I’m wondering what you guys think about having someone make a 45 LC cylinder to use as a convertible? Who would y’all recommend to take this on?
BTW, I’m using H-110 and have also IMR 4227 to try. I have read to NOT use H-110 as a reduced charge.

 

[Hondo44]

Not a bad idea. I don't know that I'd want to put the money into a separate cyl when I could just shoot 45 Colt in the .454 cyl and clean it normally. The 454 cyl is no longer than a standard 45 Colt Blackhawk cyl if I recall correctly. So picking up a Ruger 45 Colt cyl from the on-line auctions would be a less expensive option. And it would be fluted to easily tell the difference between the two cyls. Or you might find a .45 Colt Bisley unfluted cyl.

 

[DRAM40A1]

Hondo, would it make any difference with the 454 cylinder being a 5 shot and normal 45 LC cylinders being 6 shot as far as indexing and timing?

 

[Gator89]

Hondo, would it make any difference with the 454 cylinder being a 5 shot and normal 45 LC cylinders being 6 shot as far as indexing and timing?

Yes, it does make a difference. Do not try to use a 6 shot cylinder in a revolver timed for a 5 shot cylinder.

 

[contender]

I'd recommend that you NOT download H110.

IMR 4227 is a good powder in those calibers.

A spare cylinder is an option, and as noted,, must be a match, chamber wise to your gun.

I shoot .45 Colt in my .454,, but I found a better way. I use 454 brass,, LOADED to .45 Colt specs for my reduced loads. No extra cleaning,, and I can use the same cylinder for both calibers. No need for the added expense of the spare cylinder.

 

[needsmostuff]

DRAM40A1, all your components scream heavy load.
But as you reload you can easily tame it down as is.
Do some searching for "deep seating" the bullet to 45 Colt OAL. The 454 is not much longer than the 45 Colt making this an easy option.
Then find some mid burn rate powders and lighter bullets. You can get that dude down to cowboy loads if you so desire.
OR,,,,
If you still desire a second cylinder look into 45acp,45 AR or even the 45 Scofield. All of which, if loaded at the top of their game, in a tight, custom 5 shot cylinder, will punch way above their weight class. And they do it more efficiently not being burdened with all that case capacity.

 

[gcf]

Deep seated cast LSWC’s loaded to 45 Colt specs, in 454 brass.

 

[DRAM40A1]

I have a S&W 625-2 to shoot 45 ACP in. My main goal is not to shoot weak loads in the 454 but to do top 45 Long Colt loads without leading up the cylinder. I believe Contender hit the nail on the head. I will find the appropriate powder to download the 454 with 260 cast bullets. I’m still interested in finding out who can make. 45 long colt 5 shot cylinder as I have lots of brass. I guess I should just find a 45 Long Colt Blackhawk to purchase. LOL

 

[noahmercy]

I just use the 454 cases and Titegroup for tamed-down loads. 10 grains and a 250 grain bullet is equivalent to a middle-of-the-road "Ruger" 45 Colt load. Titegroup is not position-sensitive in large capacity cases, but the handloader does need to be mindful that it is possible to double-charge.

 

[3manfan]

I’ve acquired a SBH 454 Casull recently and have worked up,,,,,,well down, a few loads. I started with 250 grain XTP because that’s what I had on hand. I have 260 and 305 cast from Matt’s Bullets. The 305 are pretty tough, even at starting loads.
I know you can shoot 45 Long Colt and clean after but I’m wondering what you guys think about having someone make a 45 LC cylinder to use as a convertible? Who would y’all recommend to take this on?
BTW, I’m using H-110 and have also IMR 4227 to try. I have read to NOT use H-110 as a reduced charge.

Gary Reeder of Reeder Custom in Flagstaff, AZ would likely make you the cylinder, he made me a non-fluted one in .45 Colt several years ago for my N.M. Blackhawk. He's the only 'smith I'd let work on a single action other than Ham Bowen but that would incur mucho wait time & mucho bucks. I don't know what Gary's current wait time is & I want to say the cost was below $300 but I'm not certain, it was a while ago & he's done a lot of other work on my Rugers so the cost for the cylinder has gotten lost in my head. He does outstanding work & he'd need your gun to do it correctly. Give him a ring:
1-928-526-3313

 

[Rclark]

I guess I should just find a 45 Long Colt Blackhawk to purchase. LOL

Sound like a good rational for buying a new .45 Colt Revolver to me :) . There are plenty to chose from.... Not just Rugers either unless you are looking for ROL loads that is. Personally I like just standard .45 Colt loads (250g or so at around ~900fps) . I like to enjoy my shooting sessions :D . Lately I've been out with my .45 Colt Model P . Fun!

And you are right, H110/W296 shouldn't be loaded down. 4227 or 2400 are much better powders when 'backing off' from the high end. Of course good o' Unique, Universal, Green Dot, HS-6, Power Pistol, True Blue, and others also work well for the medium loads. Can't say I like Titegroup ... at least in the cartridges I've tried it in. That's just my opinion though.

 

[seasterl]

For the time and expense of making a custom cylinder for 45Colt, you might as well just buy a new Ruger Bisley SS 45Colt 5.5” barrel. Not sure if the twist rate in the 454 would favor low-pressure 45Colt loads for accuracy. I was never happy with my results trying to download (going from book values as well as trying TrailBoss) my 454. That’s why I switched to 45Colt and sold my 454.

 

[DRAM40A1]

I’m thinking more like shooting high end 45 long colts.....but I’ve all but come to the conclusion that another Blackhawk in 45 LC is in order.

 

[DRAM40A1]

I’m bidding on one on Gun Broker now but I’m sure it will exceed what I would like to pay. Plus that funky cylinder engravings. Ugh!

 

[vlavalle]

If you are still considering shooting .45 LC in you .454, and you are concerned about it resulting in being 'dirty' due to the shorter .45LC case, shoot only FMJ of TMJ bullets. I hadn't realized that shooting the .45 LC in the .454 would be such an issue since I was thinking of getting such a gun to have a heavier load. But now, it sounds like my Ruger .45 Colt Blackhawk convertible may just be fine! 'Covertible' mean that with a cylinder swap, I can shoot .45 ACP as well. But I do not see the 'dirty' issue here in my gun when shooting the .45 ACP - perhaps because none of these are really powerful. The max load with the .45 ACP I have shot are the Atomic at 1,225 fps, delivering 616 ft. lbs. Or it may be that I really shoot only .45ACP rounds that are FMJ bullets.

 

[seasterl]

Ruger-only loads for the 45Colt is about all I care to shoot now as my practical limit, and that’s why it made more sense for me to sell my 454 since I just wasn’t shooting factory (high) pressures very often and 45Colt was good enough. Add in a 45ACP convertible feature on the same revolver and makes shooting more fun and get away from flinching. YMMV.

 

[Ride1949]

Ruger-only loads for the 45Colt is about all I care to shoot now as my practical limit, and that’s why it made more sense for me to sell my 454 since I just wasn’t shooting factory (high) pressures very often and 45Colt was good enough. Add in a 45ACP convertible feature on the same revolver and makes shooting more fun and get away from flinching. YMMV.

Be careful with this. Ruger only loads are not recommended in the NM .45 Colt convertible. The cylinder walls are thinner due to the smaller frame size.

Edit: This is meant for the Flattop convertibles. The large frame convertibles will take the Ruger only loads. (I handload for both)

 

[vlavalle]

Be careful with this. Ruger only loads are not recommended in the NM .45 Colt convertible. The cylinder walls are thinner due to the smaller frame size.

Yes, the high powered manufactured loasds (mainly by Buffalo Bore) are recommended only for Ruger revolvers. In addition, I own a Ruger Convertible 'Flattop', and it has a slighlty thiner top bar over the cylinder, so I am allowed to shoot only the 1,214 ft. lbs. of ME loads, and not the 1,344 ones, which are the max powered .45LC rounds made. Even so, the max loads I shoot are HUGE! The gun (5 1/2" Blackhawk) kicks substantially, and I have to use two hands (I normally shoot with one arm extended all the way), and it goes better with a glove on as well. I can't imagine shooting the 1,344 ft. lbs. rounds. Maybe it would be significantly better with a barrel of 7 1/2"!

 

[Rclark]

I own a Ruger Convertible 'Flattop', and it has a slighlty thiner top bar over the cylinder

Has nothing at all to do with the 'frame' ... Has everything to do with the 'cylinder' which is what limits the loads to tier 2 on the medium frame flattop BH/New Vaquero. Tier 2 (23K psi max) is as far as I need to go ... at least here in MT. And paper, tin cans, and steel targets at the range definitely don't need ROLs....

 

[vlavalle]

That is NOT the case with the Ruger Convertible. You can clearly see that the frame is thiner, and it is called a 'Flattop', meaning it is thinner. So, ]on your Vaquero it is a very differnt matter. The .45 LC Ruger full framed blackhawks canshoot the very high powered .45LVC ammo. The New Vaquero is a very different beast. Always bet a Blackhawk if you want power.

 

[Ride1949]

Wrong again vlavalle. Rclark has it right. The NM .45 Colt Blackhawk Flattop(look at the roll mark on the left side of your Flattop convertible and you will see Blackhawk) is made on the medium sized frame. Because of this the cylinder window is smaller which means the cylinder is smaller. Due to this the cylinder walls on the NM .45 Colt Blackhawk Flattop are thinner. (The.45 Colt is a big cartridge. In order to fit it in the smaller cylinder, the cylinder walls are thinner.) It has nothing to do with the top strap. The only difference in the design of the frames (other than over all size) are the ears for sight protection. Some folks have even been known to machine off the ears to make a large frame Flattop. Do a search on here and you'll find this has been discussed before on this forum and the cylinders and frames have been measured with machinists calipers for both cylinder walls and overall cylinder size. If I recall correctly the OM Blackhawk flattops were built on the large frame. It was in these guns that the Ruger Only loads were developed.

 

[seasterl]

My apologies for any confusion. Let’s be clear that Ruger-only loads are for the larger of the two cylinder Ruger makes that are typically found in the large-frame single-action revolvers. By “convertible” I was not referring to a small frame (or small cylinder) but the larger of the two. For example, I added a 45ACP cylinder to my large-frame 45Colt, so that’s what I was referring to by my use of convertible. It allows me to shoot Ruger-only loads or swap in my 45ACP and enjoy bulk ammo with still excellent accuracy.

 

[Rclark]

Again, yes a bit thinner frame, so? ... But it is all about what the 'cylinder' can handle. The frame is plenty strong. I'll leave it at that.

If I recall correctly the OM Blackhawk flattops were built on the large frame.

In OM .44 Magnum flattop. The OM .357s (flattop and the ones with ears around rear sight) are on the medium frame. The .45 Colt OM (these are not flattops) are on the large frame.

 

[G2]

I found it interesting that when the New Model Flattop was reintroduced the top strap was thicker than the Old Model top strap
OM vs NM
357- .215 vs .245
44- .235 vs .265

 

[Ride1949]

Again, yes a bit thinner frame, so? ... But it is all about what the 'cylinder' can handle. The frame is plenty strong. I'll leave it at that.


In OM .44 Magnum flattop. The OM .357s (flattop and the ones with ears around rear sight) are on the medium frame. The .45 Colt OM (these are not flattops) are on the large frame.

Read the rest of the post. I'm agreeing with you on the cylinder size and strength. Bigger frame = Bigger cylinder window = bigger cylinder = thicker cylinder walls. That was was the point I was trying to make. i have no issue with the top strap thickness or frame strength.

 

[Ride1949]

My apologies for any confusion. Let’s be clear that Ruger-only loads are for the larger of the two cylinder Ruger makes that are typically found in the large-frame single-action revolvers. By “convertible” I was not referring to a small frame (or small cylinder) but the larger of the two. For example, I added a 45ACP cylinder to my large-frame 45Colt, so that’s what I was referring to by my use of convertible. It allows me to shoot Ruger-only loads or swap in my 45ACP and enjoy bulk ammo with still excellent accuracy.

No confusion on my part. My first post was information on the NM Flattops. I bought both of mine as convertibles so both cylinders were included. The Fatttop was a first run of 500 Lipseys special offering. The standard convertible was as offered by Ruger. My second post was in response to vlavalle's concerning the top strap thickness.

 

[vlavalle]

Wrong again vlavalle. Rclark has it right. The NM .45 Colt Blackhawk Flattop(look at the roll mark on the left side of your Flattop convertible and you will see Blackhawk) is made on the medium sized frame. Because of this the cylinder window is smaller which means the cylinder is smaller. Due to this the cylinder walls on the NM .45 Colt Blackhawk Flattop are thinner. (The.45 Colt is a big cartridge. In order to fit it in the smaller cylinder, the cylinder walls are thinner.) It has nothing to do with the top strap. The only difference in the design of the frames (other than over all size) are the ears for sight protection. Some folks have even been known to machine off the ears to make a large frame Flattop. Do a search on here and you'll find this has been discussed before on this forum and the cylinders and frames have been measured with machinists calipers for both cylinder walls and overall cylinder size. If I recall correctly the OM Blackhawk flattops were built on the large frame. It was in these guns that the Ruger Only loads were developed.

Well, your explanation makes sense, but then I was misled by Ruger when I originally contacted them about being able to shot the highest powered .45 LC ammo when I first got the gun (~2014). Buffalo Bore (who makes this very high powered .45LC ammo) does call the Ruger Flattop .45 as a 'medium' sized frame, and not to shoot their real high powered ammo in it, but Ruger said otherwise. Of course, Ruger's answer did not explain anything about why I should not shoot that ammo, and did say that there was only one frame for the .45LC Blackhawk. Of course, it is possible I misunderstood them, but I was quite explicit, so I do not think so. I suspect that whomever answered me was not aware of there being two different size frames for the Ruger .45 Colt, nor the implications.

My gun is from Lipsys, and that might be part of the problem with 'faulty' info from Ruger. I am sure glad Buffalo Bore had those disclaimers on the .45LC ammo pages. Of course, I have no way of examining any differences since I own only the one Ruger .45 Colt, and it is the Flattop' Convertible. By the way, I do love the convertible capability so I can shoot 45ACP as well. So, thanks for your info and response.

Do you know if there is a full sized frame Ruger .45 Colt that is also a convertible and that can also shoot .45ACP ammo with a cylinder swap?

 

[Ride1949]

Do you know if there is a full sized frame Ruger .45 Colt that is also a convertible and that can also shoot .45ACP ammo with a cylinder swap?

I showed one (blued) in the picture above. I'm glad my information was helpful to you.
As a side note the blued convertible shown was sent back to Ruger due to a poorly fitted grip frame, frame itself warped at the pins, and a terrible job on the bluing. They quickly sent a replacement with no argument. I love Ruger's customer service.

 

[Rclark]

Do you know if there is a full sized frame Ruger .45 Colt that is also a convertible and that can also shoot .45ACP ammo with a cylinder swap?

Yes, Ruger offered them off and on through the years. Then too there were exclusives offered as well.

 

[Onty]

I'd recommend that you NOT download H110.

IMR 4227 is a good powder in those calibers.

A spare cylinder is an option, and as noted,, must be a match, chamber wise to your gun.

I shoot .45 Colt in my .454,, but I found a better way. I use 454 brass,, LOADED to .45 Colt specs for my reduced loads. No extra cleaning,, and I can use the same cylinder for both calibers. No need for the added expense of the spare cylinder.

I would like to warn about possible problem using 4227, even in "Ruger only" loads. I had 45 Colt Bisley, with 2 cylinders for 45 Colt. One has a cylinder gap about .006", and everything was fine. However, another fluted cylinder, had a gap smaller than .002", I could barely see the light, and in 50% cases bird seed from 4227 will lock the cylinder, preventing it from rotation.

Apparently, some kind of filler was used in manufacturing process of 4227, and that creates problem. I cannot understand why they cannot resolve this issue reformulating that powder, to get rid of birdseed and nuisance it creates. Somewhere I found that some smiths don't want to build custom hunting revolvers with very small cylinder gap, and insist on gap .004-.006"