45 acp Revolver
- Thread starter modrifle3
- Start date
Killer
Bearcat
By "head spaces on the cylinder" do you mean without using moon clips? My dual cylinder 45 Colt/45 ACP Blackhawk does not use moonclips.
contender
Ruger Guru
Yep,, the 45 Convertables have a cylinder that headspaces the 45 ACPs on the mouth,, just like the semi-auto's.
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2012
- Messages
- 10,895
contender said:
Does that mean you don't need moon clips, but can use them for easier loading? Are the 9mm cylinders the same way? ED
Wheelyfun44
Single-Sixer
Yup, no moomclips required:JmE said:
Revolver-Time
Single-Sixer
Never say never but, I don't think Ruger ever made a 45ACP DA revolver.modrifle3 said:
Joe S.
Hunter
I too have a blued birdshead 45acp.
I KNOW wheeleyfun would lile to sell me those grips wouldnt you?
I would HATE to have to use moon clips woth a single action.
The DA's use moon clips because of extraction more than head space i think. Moon clips not needed on SA revolvers cause of the way the shells are ejected.
Only auto pistol caliber DA revolver i know of to not use moon clips is Charter. Every other one I've seen does. And charter has little retractible clips on the ejector rod that pops out and under the rim of the case to extract the case.
The Ruger DA in 9mm use moon clips.
I KNOW wheeleyfun would lile to sell me those grips wouldnt you?
I would HATE to have to use moon clips woth a single action.
The DA's use moon clips because of extraction more than head space i think. Moon clips not needed on SA revolvers cause of the way the shells are ejected.
Only auto pistol caliber DA revolver i know of to not use moon clips is Charter. Every other one I've seen does. And charter has little retractible clips on the ejector rod that pops out and under the rim of the case to extract the case.
The Ruger DA in 9mm use moon clips.
Joe S.
Hunter
Good info. Not familiar with those really
Biggfoot44
Blackhawk
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2009
- Messages
- 829
The S&W M547 did Not moon clips. It was designed for the French Police. It was a K frame , the majority seen in this country were 3in RB . I actually had the opportunity to shoot one. A 4in version also was mfg , but rarely seen in US .
It used an unusual and complicated system to eject with individual little prongs that cought the ctg between rim and web. Presumably it worked acceptably when used with a specific make of issued ammo. In civillian use the wide variety of case dimentions were problamatatical.
It used a frame mounted fireing pin many years before any other CF S&W , and was thereby sought out bysome 'smiths as a donor frame to build .38 PPC guns ( that reference dates me too ).
I don't have my old data , but I recall the vels with the loads of the guns owner chronographing in the expected range for 4-ish in bbl semis.
S&W M1917/37s were intended to also fire without moon clips. Depending on the individual ammo , and individual chambers sometimes the clips gave more consistant ignition , and better accuraccy.
The S&W M940 was intended to be able to fire with or without clips. From my personal experience it is highly ammo sensitive both with and without clips.
It used an unusual and complicated system to eject with individual little prongs that cought the ctg between rim and web. Presumably it worked acceptably when used with a specific make of issued ammo. In civillian use the wide variety of case dimentions were problamatatical.
It used a frame mounted fireing pin many years before any other CF S&W , and was thereby sought out bysome 'smiths as a donor frame to build .38 PPC guns ( that reference dates me too ).
I don't have my old data , but I recall the vels with the loads of the guns owner chronographing in the expected range for 4-ish in bbl semis.
S&W M1917/37s were intended to also fire without moon clips. Depending on the individual ammo , and individual chambers sometimes the clips gave more consistant ignition , and better accuraccy.
The S&W M940 was intended to be able to fire with or without clips. From my personal experience it is highly ammo sensitive both with and without clips.
Wheelyfun44
Single-Sixer
Joe S. said:I KNOW wheeleyfun would lile to sell me those grips wouldnt you?
I hate to admit it.....but I sold off my birdshead 45acp.....and the grips!
I now have the Sheriff's Vaq in 44Spec, but had to sell the ACP in order to finance it......
Joe S.
Hunter
I remember you saying that before. Id love to get some of those grips.
David Bradshaw
Blackhawk
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2012
- Messages
- 933
Modrifle3.... One-at-a-time ejection defines the salient advantage of the Peacemaker-based single action for chambering rimless pistol ammunition. The rimless cartridge headspaces on the case mouth----as it's designed to.
To achieve simultaneous ejection from a double action revolver, the rimless case requires a special ejection system, such as half-moon clips or moon clips; or, as Bigfoot44 notes, an extractor star full of little hooks, as seen on the S&W M-547 9mm DA revolver.
The .45 ACP is especially efficient in the hip pocket Rugers pictured here and gives up less velocity than a chopped barrel auto. I would advocate Ruger expand its Convertible concept in the Blackhawk and Vaquero lineup.
David Bradshaw
To achieve simultaneous ejection from a double action revolver, the rimless case requires a special ejection system, such as half-moon clips or moon clips; or, as Bigfoot44 notes, an extractor star full of little hooks, as seen on the S&W M-547 9mm DA revolver.
The .45 ACP is especially efficient in the hip pocket Rugers pictured here and gives up less velocity than a chopped barrel auto. I would advocate Ruger expand its Convertible concept in the Blackhawk and Vaquero lineup.
David Bradshaw
Joe S.
Hunter
I should. I walked away from one at a shop because we have to get our house repaired after the hail storm. But it was NICE!!
Short Barrel
Blackhawk
modrifle3 said:
I have this one in a Mountain Gun configuration,the Springfield armory commemorative.Really a fun gun to shoot.
dakota1911
Buckeye
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2009
- Messages
- 1,021
In a SA Revolver Ruger has had 45LC/45ACP convertibles for years. Of course they have had 45LC only and more recently .45ACP only revolvers. Below is a 45ACP/45LC convertible flat top I picked up last year.
Now the 45 LC head spaces on the rim and the .45 ACP head spaces on the case mouth.
As for DA revolvers. I can't remember any, but Ruger has made a bunch of stuff. Maybe in the Redhawk line of DA revolvers.
I have S&W DA 625 and 325 revolvers in .45 ACP. and they feed from moonclips, but you can put the rounds in without them and they headspace on the case mouth; of course you either dig the spent rounds out with your finger nails or poke them out with a stick once you fire as the extractor is not going to work. Below is my 325 by the way.
Now S&W did make the 610 and 310 DA revolvers that shot 10mm and fed from moonclips. I wish I had one, but do not. I have read you could put 40 S&W in the moonclips and they would work O.K. Without having looked at one yet I am guessing that is how S&W is able to shoot 410 shotshells, 45LC, and 45 ACP through that new DA pistol, the Governor or whatever it is called. The .45ACP go in moonclips.
Now the 45 LC head spaces on the rim and the .45 ACP head spaces on the case mouth.
As for DA revolvers. I can't remember any, but Ruger has made a bunch of stuff. Maybe in the Redhawk line of DA revolvers.
I have S&W DA 625 and 325 revolvers in .45 ACP. and they feed from moonclips, but you can put the rounds in without them and they headspace on the case mouth; of course you either dig the spent rounds out with your finger nails or poke them out with a stick once you fire as the extractor is not going to work. Below is my 325 by the way.
Now S&W did make the 610 and 310 DA revolvers that shot 10mm and fed from moonclips. I wish I had one, but do not. I have read you could put 40 S&W in the moonclips and they would work O.K. Without having looked at one yet I am guessing that is how S&W is able to shoot 410 shotshells, 45LC, and 45 ACP through that new DA pistol, the Governor or whatever it is called. The .45ACP go in moonclips.
Allow me to put an end to all of the speculation. First of all, for moon clips to work in a single action revolver, one would have to remove the cylinder to load the clip into the cylinder and then replace the cylinder into the gun to use. Clint Eastwood is the only one I've seen changing cylinders on a single action revolver in one of his westerns. He had extra loaded cylinders in pouches on his belt. Secondly, when the Colt and S&W 1917 revolvers first appeared, some had bored through chambers and the moon clip held the headspace and provided a means for ejection. Most modern S&W 45 acp revolvers have cylinders with chambers cut for the round to headspace on the case mouth. Most will fire without the moon clips, but extraxtion is with a pencil or some type if rod. Samething for the 10mm S&W's and yes they'll shoot 40's in moonclips just like S&W 45's will shoot 45 Gap's with moon clips. The S&W M547( I had a 4") uses an umbrella style system that uses 6 spring loaded berillium fingers to catch and eject each round as the ejector rod is pushed. The M547 also incorporated a second protruding pin below the firing pin to push and hold the round in place as it was fired. The system worked as intended but was costly to produce. The system Charter uses is similar. The S&W Governor is cut for moon clips for the acp rounds, normally chambered for the 45 Colt which also accepts 410 shells due to its long cylinder, plus it will also shot 45 Schofield's and with the use moon clips, the 45 Gap. It may even shoot 45 auto rims since it's cut for moon clips. Finally, at least in Blackhawks, the chambers are cut for the 9mm, 10mm, and 45 acp to headspace on the case mouth and be ejected by the ejector rod in the usual fashion. Bob! 8)
Thank you for the additional info. I believe we all understand the use of moon clips in a SA is not possible. My post was concerning the manufacture of a 45 acp revolver that headspaced on the cylinder. My assumption that I did not put into the post . . . my fault . . . is that I wanted a DA that did not require a moon clip. It was my understanding some 45 acp revolvers would not function with out them. I think after hearing from every one that the S&W 625 is going to be my only real option.
Usually DA cylinders are cut to take both .45 Colt/.454 and full moon clipped .45 ACPs by leaving metal around the outside edge of the chambers to head space .45 Colts on their rim. Consequently they can’t use old fashioned half moon or third moon clips. The metal left to head space .45 Colts also stops .45 Auto Rims short of fully entering chambers. This is how the S&W Governor .410/.45 Colt/.45 ACP is set up.
To an old geezer who always focused on accuracy sending a .45 ACP slug wobbling through a .410 or even a .45 Colt chamber to glance off one side or the other of the cone leading into the chamber throats sounds like a piss poor idea, but I ain’t no 5 yard expert so I don’t know nothin.
Moon clipped .40 S&Ws do shoot well enough in my S&W 610 to win local draw and shoot fast type matches and even impress some of the real 5 yard experts with … errr … "long range accuracy” but I haven’t shot them for groups. Initially I had a few missfires with .40s but replacing the firing pin with a longer after market pin cured that. Reloading with moon clips is faster with shorter cartridges because assuming different length cartridges tilt the same amount in the clip the longer cartridges' noses will be further out of alignment with the chambers. That is why owners of .357s who use full moon clips often cut down .38 special brass or even use .38 Short Colt cases.
Even with short cases no smaller caliber revolver is as fast to reload as a .45 ACP because of the thin walls separating .45 chambers. If an owner is not going to also fire cases head spaced on their rims chamber mouth chamfering can include the extractor. While most .400” bullets have a truncated cone most .45 ACP bullets are round nose. The technique is to give the clip a slight spin tossing it into your 625 or 25-2 in your peripheral vision keeping your eyes on target. .40/10 mm and smaller caliber moon clip revolvers require looking at the cylinder to align the cartridges with the chambers.
For those of you without .45 DA revolver experience I'll add that the difficulty of extracting loose .45 ACP seems to be misunderstood or exaggerated. I recently fired a box of Rem. 230 gr. FMJ through my ratty old S&W 1917. Each time I raised its barrel to vertical 2-3 cases fell out, a quick jiggled dropped another couple into my palm, then only the slightest tug with finger nails extracted the last one or two. Granted I only shot 50 ctg. Through a clean gun but at its worst reloading a DA .45 ACP without clips is faster than reloading a SA. Shooting informally with friends filling moon clips and demooning isn’t worth the bother.
When I couldn’t buy a new S&W .45 ACP revolver in 1975 I settled for a S&W 1917 that a previous owner had installed adjustable sights on. I still have it. Similar 1917s are around and there value is not high. A lot of GI surplus guns were “sporterized” back when they were dirt cheap.
Only Colt’s earliest 1917s lacked a head space shoulder. All S&W 1917s head space on the mouth. In the late 1980s S&W changed their .45 ACP cylinder’s square head space shoulder to a more revolver like cone and started instructing that moon clips would be required for reliable ignition. However, all of my and my range friends’ 625s give reliable ignition without clips.
By refusing to manufacture .45 ACP DAs Ruger is kissing off what have become the most popular revolver matches. That makes no sense to me.
If you read this far, thank-you for your time.
To an old geezer who always focused on accuracy sending a .45 ACP slug wobbling through a .410 or even a .45 Colt chamber to glance off one side or the other of the cone leading into the chamber throats sounds like a piss poor idea, but I ain’t no 5 yard expert so I don’t know nothin.
Moon clipped .40 S&Ws do shoot well enough in my S&W 610 to win local draw and shoot fast type matches and even impress some of the real 5 yard experts with … errr … "long range accuracy” but I haven’t shot them for groups. Initially I had a few missfires with .40s but replacing the firing pin with a longer after market pin cured that. Reloading with moon clips is faster with shorter cartridges because assuming different length cartridges tilt the same amount in the clip the longer cartridges' noses will be further out of alignment with the chambers. That is why owners of .357s who use full moon clips often cut down .38 special brass or even use .38 Short Colt cases.
Even with short cases no smaller caliber revolver is as fast to reload as a .45 ACP because of the thin walls separating .45 chambers. If an owner is not going to also fire cases head spaced on their rims chamber mouth chamfering can include the extractor. While most .400” bullets have a truncated cone most .45 ACP bullets are round nose. The technique is to give the clip a slight spin tossing it into your 625 or 25-2 in your peripheral vision keeping your eyes on target. .40/10 mm and smaller caliber moon clip revolvers require looking at the cylinder to align the cartridges with the chambers.
For those of you without .45 DA revolver experience I'll add that the difficulty of extracting loose .45 ACP seems to be misunderstood or exaggerated. I recently fired a box of Rem. 230 gr. FMJ through my ratty old S&W 1917. Each time I raised its barrel to vertical 2-3 cases fell out, a quick jiggled dropped another couple into my palm, then only the slightest tug with finger nails extracted the last one or two. Granted I only shot 50 ctg. Through a clean gun but at its worst reloading a DA .45 ACP without clips is faster than reloading a SA. Shooting informally with friends filling moon clips and demooning isn’t worth the bother.
When I couldn’t buy a new S&W .45 ACP revolver in 1975 I settled for a S&W 1917 that a previous owner had installed adjustable sights on. I still have it. Similar 1917s are around and there value is not high. A lot of GI surplus guns were “sporterized” back when they were dirt cheap.
Only Colt’s earliest 1917s lacked a head space shoulder. All S&W 1917s head space on the mouth. In the late 1980s S&W changed their .45 ACP cylinder’s square head space shoulder to a more revolver like cone and started instructing that moon clips would be required for reliable ignition. However, all of my and my range friends’ 625s give reliable ignition without clips.
By refusing to manufacture .45 ACP DAs Ruger is kissing off what have become the most popular revolver matches. That makes no sense to me.
If you read this far, thank-you for your time.
For those that might be interested...
ETA: Someone on one of the forums (might have even been RF) machined their cylinder so that one could get a thumbnail under the rimless cartridge. Then again, I might not be remembering the thread correctly. There were photos too.
ETA: Someone on one of the forums (might have even been RF) machined their cylinder so that one could get a thumbnail under the rimless cartridge. Then again, I might not be remembering the thread correctly. There were photos too.
You would have to have the SA cylinder modified to take .45ACP snowflake clips (they don't look like moons to me; they look like snowflakes). Otherwise you wouldn't be able to get the loaded cylinder into the gun.JmE said:
And then there's the matter of the hole spacing. Is it the same on the Ruger SA as it is on the S&W and Colt DA revolvers? I don't know.
