.44 Mag -- major loads

[sp]

Any body out there who has had experience with defense loads for the .44 Mag against large animals -- bears, moose, and even mountain goats.

For example in Washington and Idaho there have been recently 2 black bear attacks, one moose attack, and one attack by a mountain goat (Olympic Park). The 2 bear attacks resulted in severe injuries including the loss of an eye (human), the moose attack (cow) was resolved by killing the moose with no human injuries, but the mountain goat killed the human (he bled out thru an artery in his thigh).

I am using the .429, 250 Sierra silhouette bullet, with Accurate #9 -- the accuracy load in the Sierra Manual for .44 Mag. My thoughts are to inflict a major wound by shooting a big bullet through the beast.

I have a Super Black Hawk, 4.6 inch barrel.

Any thoughts - I would value actual stories about .44 Mag use against large animals also any test results from shooting into wet newspaper, 2X4's, railroad ties, or whatever

 

[DeletedMember275]

Many will recommend a bullet in the 300+ grain range for this, but I suspect a properly placed 250 grain bullet traveling at 1200+ FPS would be rather discouraging to most animals.

Recall that Maj. Douglas B. Wesson reportedly killed a polar bear with the then-new .357 Mag, back in the day. He for sure killed elk, moose, and grizzly bear - not necessarily something I would recommend.

Shot placement is king; penetration is queen. All else is just angels dancing on the head of a pin.

 

[steve b]

Look at the WFN LBT designs, in a weight that'll give you full penetration. Since I don't have to worry about the big bears or moose, am happy with the 255gr version. The 300gr ones at 1200-1300fps outta do. steve b

 

[jgt]

Use a heavy bullet and you'll get the penetration you need. When I lived in country where that danger was present, I used a custom Ruger Redhawk 44 and a cast 379 grn gc Keith from a NEI mold. It would shoot through anything I shot with it. You can use a 300grn up to 355 from any number of companies, Bear Tooth Bullets is one that comes to mind. Heavy bullets need not be going at breakneck speed to do their work and they retain their velocity very well.

 

[Tommy Kelly]

I shoot a 310 gr gc bullet with 22 gr h110 and mag primer. These give great accuracy and would do all needed on anything.

 

[VAdoublegunner]

A good heavyweight, high sectional density cast bullet with a large meplat would be my choice, driven to as high a velocity as you are comfortable handling within acceptable pressure limits. The LBT designs are pretty decent.

You get excellent penetration, lots of shock value, a big wound channel that lets the air out.

You also have a good packin'pistol for the task. I might prefer a 45 Colt Redhawk with the same type of big heavy for caliber bullets if I was really worried about snarly clawy teethy horny critters (hmmm...maybe especially if that last one!), but the SBH should so well.

 

[sp]

Just when I thought it was safe to go out into the forest.....

Thanks for the info -- I noticed that no jacketed bullets were mentioned.

I plan to order 300 and 320 grain LBT WFNGC bullets. Accurate has a recipe for both bullets using Acc #9 that should give me about 1000 fps.

Lacking approved penetration test media I plan to use white wood (pine or spruce) 2X6 mill ends spaced 3/4 inch apart. I plan to check out 300 gr Sierra's, 300 gr Hornady XTP's and the massive hard lead (fat/flat?) nosed slugs. I will be looking at the size of the hole and how many 2X6's were shot thru.

Hopefully, I will never use the results against any enraged beast.

Every time I pick up my SBH I think of the Marty Robbin's big iron song.

My everyday load is 9.5 gr of Tite Group with a 180 gr Hornady XTP.

 

[maxpress]

The lake wenatchee bear attack and was just stupidity on the humans part.

A full grown sow pig has about the same skull as a bear. On the butcher pigs we used a 22 and they dropped quick. The older breeding pigs are a different story. When they would get old we were told to put them down. Many times I have used a 44spl 240gr at about 900fps and gone through the skull and had the bullet leave via the belly. Pig just dropped like a marionette with the strings cut. Now this is holding a BH right between the eyes and such a great shot is not likely in a deffensive situation but just shows it dosnt take a supermag to do it. I am comfortable with a 250 keith style bullet at 1000fps for deffense. A bullet going at 1300fps just gives you the same muzzle energy at 100yrds for hunting.
Anything over 1000fps is gravy and theres nothing wrong with it if it makes you feel better in the lower 48.
The bears I saw in Alaska are just to big for a handgun.

 

[Dale53]

IF the shot placement is correct, the .44 Magnum with a Keith cast bullet of 250 grs traveling at 1200+ fps will do the job. The "CATCH" is proper bullet placement.

If I were tasked with a Brown Bear and a .44 Magnum handgun, I would choose the Lee C430-310-RF-CG bullet ahead of 21.5 grs of H110 and hope for the best.

On the other hand, I can think of any number of things I would rather be doing...

YMMV
Dale53

 

[Hammerdown77]

Hunting a bear (from a distance, when they are calm and just standing in one place) is quite different than trying to stop one RIGHT D**N NOW as it is charging you...

 

[sp]

Thanks for the responses.

A relative of a friend had to shoot and kill a griz in Alaska using a .44 Mag -- a .375 H&H would have been preferred but one wasn't available.

This is not hunting -- when I lived in SE Alaska 2 bear attacks occured -- one by a black bear that blinded a young man with one swipe of the bear's paw with claws extended the other by a griz sow and cubs against several humans that were gutting and quartering a moose. In both cases serious human injuries occured. Of interest is the black and griz bears appear not to share the same territories. I do not know if or how the bears were killed except AK fish & Game performed a necrocopsy on the griz bears at a local junior high school.

Several months ago I and several other humans were approached by a young bull moose. We did not want to be held responsible for forcing the beast to attack us so we left - like get in truck and leave. My guess is the moose weighed about 700 lbs and the moose showed signs of aggression the hair on his back was extended and he approaced within 100 ft. Could he tip over a 3/4 ton p/u?

I don't know what type of handgun killed the Idaho cow moose, apparently it was carried in a back pack and used against the moose as the moose charged the hiker's wife. Fish & Game stated that essentially it was a lucky shot as no major bones (moose) blocked the bullet from tearing up the beast's heart and major arteries. More gun was needed in this case.

Of interest both Washington state bear attacks involved dogs (please correct if not factual) -- are the humans liable for allowing their dogs to harrass something that the humans cannot see?

In any event my goals are to pack something that is more than adequate --thus 300 grain + slugs @ 1000 fps.

 

[Dale53]

Addendum to my post above:

It really doesn't matter WHAT gun you carry if you are not willing to shoot it enough to get proficient in it's use.

Few of us have deep enough pockets to be able to afford enough factory ammo to get the job done.

What ever your financial position, I suggest that EVERYONE who shoots learn to reload so he can practice enough to maintain a high skill level.

Just a thought...

Dale53

 

[sp]

Good thought Dale53,

I put Pachmayr rubber grips on my SBL and that really helps. No interest in quick draw.

I am also thinking about replacing the issue base pin with Belt Mountain base pin that will give me more ejector movement to speed up reloads. My weekly shoot to hit and reload drills are getting better and I am now ready to move up to the 300 grain level.

Any comments about base pins would be welcome.

 

[maxpress]

The other thing you have to remember is even with the perfect rifle shot a bear ussually has to be tracked. Thats is to say even if 5-6 bullets pass clear through she may have a couple minutes to tear you up still. Lotsa damage can be done in that time.

 

[chris_]

Addendum to my post above:

It really doesn't matter WHAT gun you carry if you are not willing to shoot it enough to get proficient in it's use.

Few of us have deep enough pockets to be able to afford enough factory ammo to get the job done.

What ever your financial position, I suggest that EVERYONE who shoots learn to reload so he can practice enough to maintain a high skill level.

Just a thought...

Dale53

I think this is especially true with big bore revolvers shooting max loads. They just require practice to be proficient with.

 

[Dale53]

Many years ago, I was at a gun show chatting with Frank Siefer who started F&M Reloading. He was set up selling reloading tools and supplies (he is a Lee Distributor). He was talking to a customer.

Frank and I had been shooting buddies and hunting buddies (mostly deer with .44 Magnum Revolvers). He had just told his "customer" how much he and I shot our full house .44 Magnums each year in the weeks leading up to deer hunting. His customer did NOT believe him and was quite put out. I had not heard the original discussion, so when I walked up Frank asked me to tell the guy how much we shot before deer hunting.

I stated the truth, we typically shot about 2500 rounds in the weeks leading up to deer hunting. The guy flat out called us a couple of LIARS and stalked off. He stated that it was IMPOSSIBLE to shoot 2500 rounds of .44 Magnums - I guess our heads would fall off if we did that.

It's a wonder to me how some live to be grown, they are so ignorant. We all start out ignorant but some seem to make a profession out of it...

Dale53

 

[Stoots]

Since I don't reload, I use this:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=49

305 gr. L.B.T.-L.F.N. (1,325 fps/M.E. 1,189 ft. lbs.)

 

[Ruger4Life]

Oregon trail 310 gr True Shot over 21.0gr of WW-296. Very accurate. I get one-hole six-shot groups at 25 yds. Will take down ANY 2-legged or 4-legged critters. I use Fed Gold mag primers, with R-P cases and heavy profile crimp.

 

[sp]

Yes ... it kicks real good but is manageable.

A friend of mine did shoot a griz bear in S.E. Alaska with a .375 H&H, 300 gr Nostler Partition about 50 yards away and the bear did take off and needed to be tracked. It was found dead about 50 more yards away in a jungle of alders. A 300gr .375 H&H @ 2500 fps is more than a 300 gr .44 mag pistol bullet @ 1000 fps.

Thanks for the comments

 

[WESHOOT2]

AA9 is an excellent choice.
Cast Performance and Beartooth offer bullets that hold together; field proven.
Use new sized cases ONLY; most highly recommend the firm crimp be applied with the superior Redding Profile Crimp Die.

 

[sp]

I sure get a kick out of shooting the SBH.

For serious carry it would seem prudent to use only sized new cases after trying each round for fit in the cylinder/chambers.

I am now using a Lee factory crimp die that does a roll crimp and will size the overall case size down to specs. My loads run easily through the Lee die with very little resistance except for the rather heavy roll crimp.

I plan to order 300 gr Cast Performance gas check bullets. I will check out the Redding Profile Crimp Die. The Sierra manual loads are made up with CCI 350 primers (large pistol magnum) other sources recommend regular large pistol primers. In the mountain west it can get real cold and this could be a factor in primer selection.

I am exclusively a rifle hunter and only think of pistols as defensive weapons. I have a .375 rifle but don't want to carry it with waders and a fly rod.

 

[Jumping Frog]

I stated the truth, we typically shot about 2500 rounds in the weeks leading up to deer hunting.

Well, you are more serious about it than I. I was feeling pretty good about getting outdoors yesterday and shooting about 200 rounds through my .44. I chronographed my loads at about 1500 fps and regularly get sub-2 inch groups at 50 yards. Deer season starts a week from tomorrow (Nov 29)!

Regarding the Buffalo Bore versus reloading:

Since I don't reload, I use this:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=49

305 gr. L.B.T.-L.F.N. (1,325 fps/M.E. 1,189 ft. lbs.)

For deer hunting, I cast my own 240 grain LSWC Keith-style gas-checked bullets and drive that with 24.0 grains of H110. Buffalo Bore used to make an almost identical 240 grain LSWC Keith-style gas-checked bullet, but now have a 255 grain version.

MidwayUSA sells the Buffalo Bore Ammunition 44 Remington Magnum 255 Grain Lead Keith-Type Semi-Wadcutter Gas Check Box of 20 for $33.99.

The 200 rounds I shot yesterday would cost $339.90 plus shipping from MidwayUSA. My costs are about $11.40 per hundred, or I spent about $23.00 just yesterday.

The roughly $320 I saved just yesterday would more than pay for a decent reloading setup. That doesn't include the thousands of dollars I've saved over the years.

I can understand people not wanting to get into reloading if all they shoot is 9mm because the savings do not add up as quickly. But I think anyone who shoots .44 magnum needs to take a hard look at getting into this -- the economics are just too compelling.

 

[Tommy Kelly]

I cant remember the last time I bought a centerfire cartridge for my guns was. Except for a new gun just to get brass. I reload for all my rifles and handguns. The first thing I do after getting a new caliber is to order dies and whatever is needed that I don't already have to load for the caliber. The cost of factory loads would quickly break the bank as much as I shoot and enjoy my guns. Most of the ones I shoot I have several thousand rounds for on hand loaded ready to go.

 

[EDK]

I shoot 357 or 44 VAQUEROS daily...mostly 44s. BUT for a self defense gun against things that are going to chew on me vigorously, I'd have a double action gun. Fine motor skills are going out the window in a stress situation and an un-cocked single action has a tough trigger pull!

There's a bunch of guys here from castboolits. Remember the group buy mould from OWBM....a clone of LYMAN 429352...250 grain 44 wadcutter. Get the mould or a supply of the bullets; work up a load in your S&W or Redhawk; pray you don't need to use it on anything but paper. AND have a high quality holster that is comfortable and accessible....anything over a 5 inch barrel will stay home when you need it most. After 40+ years of studying the pistol, guess how I know that. (The VAQUEROS are 5.5 inch barrels.) My S&Ws are a 5 inch 625 and 629 and a 5.5 inch 627...and I just got a full wadcutter mould for the 625 (45 ACP.) If the wadcutter does anything close to the same damage to tissue as it does to target backing, I think it will work nicely. I'm looking for noise, powder burns and big holes in whatever has me cornered!

 

[WESHOOT2]

Ditto CCI350 for extreme cold. Also investigate the Penn Bullets 320g SSK.