357 magnum vs 44 special

[RugerSP101]

Weird, huh?

As far as slugs and bears, I'm ignoring nothing. We're not talking about deer hunting, we're talking about stopping a charging bear.

We're pretty clear on that detail

While I agree a rifle is the way to go, a handgun is hardly the next logical move compared to a 12 gauge with the slugs mentioned in my previous post

 

[RugerSP101]

http://www.fs.fed.us/r10/tongass/forest_facts/safety/bearfacts.htm

Bear Facts
The Essentials of Traveling in Bear Country

A .300-Magnum rifle or a 12-gauge shotgun with rifled slugs are appropriate weapons if you have to shoot a bear. Heavy handguns such as a .44-Magnum may be inadequate in emergency situations, especially in untrained hands.

i took two bears this year one with a 7mm mauser and one with a 12 ga foster slug. both were one shot kills the bear with the 7mm 175gr round nose went 40 yards the one with the 12ga went 3 feet.learn to shot your gun and you should not have any problems

Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Your Opionion on 12 ga. Slug Guns for Bears - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83762#ixzz1DzldqVLY

This past bear season my buddy used his 11-87 slug gun with a rem copper solid. I have to say that is one of the best bear loads I have ever seen. It make a giant hole and the shock it gives when it hits. I have to say I was real impressed with it.
Hunting bear, no matter if it is over bait or with hounds, is a going to be a close shooting situation. Bear country is too thick to get any thing more then 50-75 yard shots. A 12ga slug gun is a great gun for that !!!!!

Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Your Opionion on 12 ga. Slug Guns for Bears - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83762#ixzz1DzlKfWSU

I took a bear in 08 and 09 with a 12 gauge, so yes it will do the job just fine. 08 was at 15 yards away and 09 was 8 yards away and closing the gap fast. Sometimes it can be very close and personal. What you need to ask yourself is this, what gun do you shoot the best and feel the most comfortable with. For me it's no question. The 12 gauge open sights.

Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Your Opionion on 12 ga. Slug Guns for Bears - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83762#ixzz1DzobZ18E

Many years ago I killed my first black bear with a Foster type slug and dropped him in his tracks! I would not hesitate to use a modern sabot slug load, especially the Remington Copper slug load. I have take two with a bow and six with a rifle but not because I think slugs woun't do the job. One big advantage to a slug is usually a good blood trail!

Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Your Opionion on 12 ga. Slug Guns for Bears - Page 2 - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?s=757001650611b1b4ff85f7fdda18c832&t=83762&page=2#ixzz1Dzp1MkG2

 

[Bucks Owin]

An eastern black bear and an enraged grizz/kodiak are not the same thing... :wink:
(And a rifle bullet in a sabot is still a rifle at close range, not a shotgun IMO...)

 

[jpickar]

CraigC,

Helloooooo? Did you read all of my post. I LIVE IN GRIZZLY COUNTRY. My son shot a charging grizzly at 20 yards with a slug. Matter of fact he got two shots off with his 870 pump shotgun. Until you have such experiance I suggest you back off on your armchair quaterbacking. You don't know what you are talking about.
Until you filled your shorts and lived to tell about it don't feed me your...............

MY SON IS ALIVE BECAUSE OF SLUGS USING A REM. 870 PUMP SHOTGUN!

This grizzlies pic was taken by my trail cam 100 yards from my house.

John[/img]

 

[RugerSP101]

CraigC,

Helloooooo? Did you read all of my post. I LIVE IN GRIZZLY COUNTRY. My son shot a charging grizzly at 20 yards with a slug. Matter of fact he got two shots off with his 870 pump shotgun. Until you have such experiance I suggest you back off on your armchair quaterbacking. You don't know what you are talking about.
Until you filled your shorts and lived to tell about it don't feed me your...............

MY SON IS ALIVE BECAUSE OF SLUGS USING A REM. 870 PUMP SHOTGUN!
This grizzlies pic was taken by my trail cam 100 yards from my house.

John[/img]

Low and behold, a true life story to prove the facts.

 

[jpickar]

OH wait that is a live grizzly 100 yards from my house...

Let's see the dead one my son shot in the back of the game wardens truck.........450lbs of slug killed grizzly.

John

 

[CraigC]

And how well did the slugs perform? How deeply did they penetrate? Were any heavy bones encountered? How big was the bear, did any of the slugs exit? Details! To simply say, I killed a bear with a slug, therefore a slug is the best tool for the job is about like saying, I rode 60miles to the store on my unicycle, therefore my unicycle is the best vehicle for getting to the store.

You can't dismiss my statements with "I live in bear country and my son killed a bear, therefore I'm an expert and you're an armchair quarterback". That's not an argument, that's a deflection.

Just like lots of folks look at the USFS test results and conclude that the .44Mag is a poor choice. Such as the above quote. Completely disregarding the fact that they used a generic 240gr JHP factory load. They had the same results with 300gr .45/70 loads but that is irrelevant when far better loads are available that near .458Win levels.

Seriously, did either of you give this subject more than a minute's thought before you responded to this thread?

 

[Mtnfolk75]

I don't know how this got so far OT ......

But, FWIW .... I spent last summer living in a tent in the outback of Alaska. I had the option of taking many Large caliber hunting weapons both handgun and long gun. However, I ended up daily carrying a 5" Raging Bull in 454 Casull in a cross draw Simply Rugged Sourdough Pancake ( required Suspenders ...), and always within reasonable reach was a Mossberg Mariner 12 gauge, loaded with OO Buck and Slug alternating for the first 5 with three slugs following.

I had many run-ins with pissed off Cow Moose with Calves and only one with a curious Black Bear .... fortuantely no shots were fired in anger or fear ... but I did sleep well at night ..... ;o) YMMV

 

[Bucks Owin]

At one time, the biggest grizzly on record was killed in a trap by an indian gal with a .22 rimfire! So I guess a .22LR is "enough gun" too depending on circumstance... :shock:

 

[jpickar]

Have passed for any touchdowns from your armchair CraigC :lol: :lol: :lol:

John

 

[CraigC]

Have passed for any touchdowns from your armchair CraigC

Got anything meaningful to add or just one little dead bear, no details and personal insults???

 

[RugerSP101]

At one time, the biggest grizzly on record was killed in a trap by an indian gal with a .22 rimfire! So I guess a .22LR is "enough gun" too depending on circumstance... :shock:

Got any links so we can see it for ourselves ?

 

[RugerSP101]

Defintely seems consistent with the FACTS from other HUNTERS who have taken down bear with a 12 gauge slug.

OH wait that is a live grizzly 100 yards from my house...

Let's see the dead one my son shot in the back of the game wardens truck.........450lbs of slug killed grizzly.

John

 

[CraigC]

I'm not saying you can't kill a bear with a 12ga slug. I'm not even saying you can't stop a charging bear with a 12ga slug. I'm just saying, based on EVERYTHING we know about dangerous game, it does not appear to me to be the best tool for the job. Far from it. And that maybe, perhaps, the reason they are recommended for such purposes is not because they are the best tool for the job but because they are more accessible to more people who are less likely to have an appropriate rifle available to them or the skill to properly put it to use.

I'm waiting for someone to explain to me exactly how, by what magical wizardry, the 12ga slug defies physics and somehow does what stopping rifles do, with none of the characteristics inherent to stopping rifle cartridges.

 

[Bucks Owin]

I don't know how this got so far OT ......


I had many run-ins with pissed off Cow Moose with Calves and only one with a curious Black Bear .... fortuantely no shots were fired in anger or fear ... but I did sleep well at night ..... ;o) YMMV

Dittos on the cow moose! I lived in the BC interior around Prince George for 24 yrs and have talked to a lot of old trappers who agree that a PO'ed mama moose is nothing to sneeze at and I gave any I saw with a calf plenty of room...

Saw exactly 3 grizzlies in all that time, one through the scope of a .270 that was working on a gutpile 50 yds away (about 3 jumps!) and stood up to try and see what I was I guess. :shock: I was really afraid that I'd have to pull the trigger and all hell would break loose! Happily, I was able to back away and go change my shorts...I can still see the image of the crosshairs on that bear's chest in my mind....brrrrr!
Faced down a wolverine even closer with a .50 cal T/C Hawken once and that was just about as scarey! But again, no powder burned..

Anyway, off topic as usual.. :roll:

 

[RugerSP101]

I'm waiting for someone to explain to me exactly how, by what magical wizardry, the 12ga slug defies physics and somehow does what stopping rifles do, with none of the characteristics inherent to stopping rifle cartridges.

Hmmm.
Ever hear of a rifled barrel ?
I can get one for my Mossbeg 535 at Dicks or Gander Mountain.
or here;
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00162JOZ8/ref=asc_df_B00162JOZ81428259?smid=A2B2TXVNKFJH7I&tag=dealtmp333239-20&linkCode=asn&creative=395105&creativeASIN=B00162JOZ8

They shoot slugs pretty damned accurately to at last 150 yards.
Did ya see the SLUG I posted earlier ? Im beginning to think you didnt or your trying to pretend you didnt.

I realize that a Rifle is BETTER at some things, but again, lets not pretend that the 12 gauge isn't enough gun in cases where it clearly is.

"The first order of business was to round up a menu of slugs designed for rifled barrels--which means, more or less, sabot loads. What I dug up, although not vast in diversity, was pretty impressive ballistically. The lot included Federal Premium 3-inch Barnes one-ounce hollowpoints, Hornady Light Mag 2 3/4-inch 300-grain SSTs, and Winchester Supreme 2 3/4-inch 385-grain Partition Golds.
Factory velocity figures are as follows The Federal loads clock 1,530 fps, the Winchesters clock 1,900 fps and the Hornadys clock 2,000 fps."

"The 535 ATS Slugster is a powerful big-game tool..."

Read more: http://www.gunsandammo.com/content/mossberg-535-ats-slugster#ixzz1E0JmR0IV

http://www.gunsandammo.com/content/mossberg-535-ats-slugster

 

[jpickar]

Tell me of your experiance CraigC :lol:

John

 

[maxpress]

Heres what I dont get. A 45 cal miniball out of a 45-70 kills bear. But the same bullet shape, with poured in a mold with the same material with a greater diameter and weight moving at almost the same speed is inferior?

From my limited experience and from stories from people that have shot big alaskan bruines. You better not be counting on even a 50bmg to stop them imediatly unless you hit brain or remove upper spine.
I cant recall all the stories of "I had a perfect shot and took 2 and still had to track for x-miles" the biggens just like to live for awhile and 10min is a long time to have an 800lb+ bear chewing on you.

The guy that shot the bear with his 870 is very fortunate not to have gotten it.

I must of back azmuthed instead of azmuthed because I am way off of finding the 357 vs 44 thread.

 

[COR]

I would feel comfortable with a 45-70 lever action because I am personally comfortable with the weapon but I will not argue that 12ga is any less lethal . I think it comes down to hits on target in a very tense situation. If the fellas that hang around grizzlies say a 12ga is what they use effectively than so be it. I don't have enough experience with large bears to say.

What ever happened to the 44SPl VS 357 thread? And why does it always come down to stopping a bear? You guys kill me with your bear stopping threads, I have a friend from Montana that moved to Maine a while back. He said he'd take a Grizz over any rutting moose ANY DAY, he said they are much more unpredictable and violent. Maybe we need a MOOSE GUN thread....


Just add 180degrees to your azimuth walk away... :wink:

 

[jpickar]

COR,

You are right. A rutting moose is much more agressive than a bear. A bear once it decides to get you will become more dangerous. My sons have be run up trees more by moose than charged by bears.

I can tell your friend has experiance by what he said.

John