357 magnum vs 44 special

[BearStopper]

But don't you think that this apple

looks a little bit like this one?

:roll:

I agree!

 

[CraigC]

I'd hate to know that hte only thing standing between me and a raging brown bear was a 12ga slug. Think about how pitiful the sectional density is. A standard 1oz 12ga slug has a sectional density comparable to a 185gr .45ACP. Think about how most Foster type slugs are soft, swaged lead. Even the Black Magic slug is only marginally better. No sir, the pump 12ga with slugs is oft-recommended for bear defense because most everybody has one and if not, they're dirt cheap to procure. Not because they are the best solution. While Dixie's offerings are far superior to the vaunted Black Magic slugs, sectional density is still not where it should be and think about the recoil of launching an 870gr slug at 1200fps. Sorry but the 12ga slug argument just doesn't stand to the slightest bit of logical scrutiny.

Nope, I'll take a big bore levergun over a 12ga any day of the week.

 

[maxpress]

When I was up in alaska in 95 I met a few guides through my (at that time) brother in law. It seemed they had to choices in guns. A 12ga pump full of slugs or a 12ga pump with shot followed by slugs.
It depends on the slug. A solid forster type slug is going to be as dense as a 44lswc you start getting into the sabbot HP or the pellet shaped ones then
yeah, no penetration.

Dont mean to jack your thread.

 

[RugerSP101]

You can keep all your 357s only the 44 special is special...the name says it all! Dennis

Don't ya just want to touch it in all its 'special' places

 

[RugerSP101]

Nope, I'll take a big bore levergun over a 12ga any day of the week.

Well, come on....we were talking versus a handgun
If youre comparing to big rifles, sign me up....I just dont own any right now

Besides, theres always the law to consider.
I was allowed to carry the 12 gauge because it was legal to hunt with.

 

[ctom3]

I think that Bigbill was headed in the right direction, but didn't take the point all of the way. Taking a little look at the "v squared" part inside of the energy equation will tell you a whole lot. The .357 proportionally carries much more of its energy in velocity, which means that it will rapidly decrease energy as a square to the loss in velocity downrange. While the same is going on with the .44, its much greater bullet weight means that it will not loose as much as quickly. At some point it will carry more energy down range.

For close range defensive use, I am still inclined to go with the .44 special since both would likely overpenetrate practically anything but a bear. At that point, the extra energy is carried beyond potentially becomes a greater liability. The larger wound channel created by the .44 then becomes the major plus.

 

[jpickar]

:? :? Who cares about sectional density with a 12 ga slug???? It is big it is moving and it will destroy tissue. All bear encounters and shootings are at close range. The slug is more forgiving and will penetrate at close range. It doesn't matter what the projectile looks like at 20 yards. It just needs to do the job. ??

John

 

[CraigC]

Nope, I'll take a big bore levergun over a 12ga any day of the week.

Well, come on....we were talking versus a handgun.

Even compared to pistol cartridge carbines but revolvers as well. Examining the testing t hat has been done with big bore sixguns loaded with heavy LBT's even at moderate velocity, they are much more comparable to heavy rifles and either leaves the flying ashtray 12ga slug choking on dust. Sure, a slug 'may' be sufficient but if there's ever a time in your life that you want overkill, a charging grizzly is it. The biggest factor here is weapon proficiency. Very few people are willing to put the time and effort into mastering the heavy sixgun to the point where they can just draw and fire instinctively but we also have to remember, a bear is not gonna just stand there and let you shoot him with a shotgun either.

It's all rather academic for 99% of us anyway. I've only been in brown bear country once in my life and have never seen one in person. It's rather far-fetched for most of us to ever really need defense against a big bear but it makes for interesting conversation. I have, however, watched my uncle's grizzly hunt video and seeing a moderately sized bear soak up five .416's makes one realize that there is no such thing as too much gun.

 

[jpickar]

I live in grizzly country and I carry accordingly. To say any revolver is better than a 12 ga. is ignoring reality. Watching your uncles grizzly videos is a far cry from facing a charging grizzly bear at 20 yards behind our chicken coop!

Here again is another case of armchair quaterbacking without any experiance.
I think the guides in Alaska would have the right idea and I will follow thier lead on that. They have the EXPERIANCE.

John

 

[RugerSP101]

Nope, I'll take a big bore levergun over a 12ga any day of the week.

Well, come on....we were talking versus a handgun.

Even compared to pistol cartridge carbines but revolvers as well. Examining the testing t hat has been done with big bore sixguns loaded with heavy LBT's even at moderate velocity, they are much more comparable to heavy rifles and either leaves the flying ashtray 12ga slug choking on dust.

I hate to be a voice of dissension or anything but come on, guy...a LOT of HUNTERS using 12 gauges take a LOT of BIG game every year.
Im not going to argue the point, but I think youre possibly overthinking the issue.
Rifles do what rifles do best.
That doesnt make a 1 oz slug cranking at 1450 FPS any less lethal.

Sure, a slug 'may' be sufficient but if there's ever a time in your life that you want overkill, a charging grizzly is it.

Well, *IF* in my life I ever am in a situation where grizzly is an issue, I might look into a 30.06 or something...possibly.

The biggest factor here is weapon proficiency. Very few people are willing to put the time and effort into mastering the heavy sixgun to the point where they can just draw and fire instinctively but we also have to remember, a bear is not gonna just stand there and let you shoot him with a shotgun either.

Ok. So I'll just be proficient with my trusty 12

It's all rather academic for 99% of us anyway. I've only been in brown bear country once in my life and have never seen one in person.

The one up in NY was just a siting on a hiking trail. We never saw it...and after I found out about it we just avoided some of those trails anyway.
I did almost have to shoot what I think was a feral dog on that same trail, however.
I wanted to take the shot but I wasnt absolutely positive that this wasnt just some nutty dog that someone down the road owned.

 

[Tommy Kelly]

I own several 357 handguns and most all only get fed 38's. If I want power I have a lot bigger handguns for that need. The 38's are just fun.

 

[CraigC]

To say any revolver is better than a 12 ga. is ignoring reality....Here again is another case of armchair quaterbacking without any experiance.

No need to get personal. Let's stick to the topic and leave the personal comments out of it. I'd be elated to see somebody prove me wrong with "experience". What is yours? How many bears have you killed with 12ga slugs?

Who cares about sectional density with a 12 ga slug???? It is big it is moving and it will destroy tissue. All bear encounters and shootings are at close range. The slug is more forgiving and will penetrate at close range. It doesn't matter what the projectile looks like at 20 yards.

This is my point exactly. The 12ga slug survives by legend alone. This is equivalent to "it works because I say so". Cut the rhetoric, speculation and secondhand nonsense and let's get to where the metal meets the meat.


It ain't magic, gents. We know what works, we know how it works and we know why it works. The testing doesn't lie and even the USFS testing shows 12ga slugs as dismal compared to better rifle cartridges. Don't rely on what you've heard regurgitated a hundred times, use your brain. Look at your average Foster type slug. It is soft, swaged lead, has a great hollow cavity in the base and has a sectional density comparable to a 165gr .45 bullet. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that you need a harder material, heavier weight and thus higher sectional density to penetrate deeply and break large bones. Would you use a 165gr .45 bullet against big bears? Probably not.

Moving up to the Black Magic, we have a harder cast slug but the sectional density is still dismal at .161. Comparable to a 200gr .44 or 225gr .45. Would you use either for big bears??? Probably not.

See where I'm going with this?

Move up to the best of the 12ga slugs, those from Dixie. Even the mighty 730gr is only equivalent to 250-260gr .44 or .45 bullets. Sounds like a good deer, elk and moose load to me but nothing bigger and certainly nothing that bites back. The massive 870gr with an SD of .233 is comparable to a 300gr .44 or 335gr .45. Now we're finally getting to acceptable SD's for large, heavy, dangerous game. Let's not forget about that recoil. Forget about a follow-up shot.

Still not up to the penetrating capability of the big 355gr .44, 360gr .45, 430gr .475 with SD's in the .254 to .274 range.

Think about the classic stopping cartridges, they all have one thing in common, heavy for caliber, toughly constructed bullets. All have very high sectional densities.

Such as:

.375H&H 300gr = .305

.450/.400 400gr = .338

.458Win 500gr = .341

.470NE 500gr = .318

See a pattern forming here?

We know what these bullets do and through Linebaugh's penetration testing, we know how the various big bore sixgun loads compare. They compare quite favorably. One of the deepest penetrators in his testing was the 430gr .475 at 1272fps, which exited on 64" of wet newsprint. Similar performance was turned in by the 500gr .500Linebaugh, which startlingly, has an equivalent sectional density. It is no surprise that in penetration testing, the Dixie slugs compared almost identically to sixgun loads using hardcast bullets of comparable sectional density moving around 1200fps.

Now look at the vaunted 12ga slug:

1oz (437.5gr) = .117

1 3/8oz Black Magic (601gr) = .161

Dixie 730gr = .196

Dixie 870gr = .233

So if we know that it takes a toughly constructed bullet with a high sectional density to penetrate deeply and break large bones, by what magic does a 12ga slug with its soft construction and pitiful sectional density accomplish the same thing? Wishful thinking???

Linebaugh's penetration testing.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/Linebaugh.Penetration.Tests.asp?Order=5

 

[RugerSP101]

This is my point exactly. The 12ga slug survives by legend alone. This is equivalent to "it works because I say so". Cut the rhetoric, speculation and secondhand nonsense and let's get to where the metal meets the meat.

But...you seem to be ignoring the FACT that a LOT of hunters take down big game EVERY SEASON with 12 gauges.

I mean, if we're going to 'cut the rhetoric' lets do just that and admit the fact that either a LOT of hunters are LYING about their kills....or the 12 gauge is effective enough for doing the job.

Linebaugh's penetration testing.

Penetration tests?
How about showing us big animals that DIDNT die when shot in the vitals close range with a 12 gauge slug...because THAT is the ONLY test Id accept.

 

[RugerSP101]

Modern slug loads are not only popular with deer hunters but with travelers in bear country as well.
The 12-Gauge Slug

Read more: http://www.petersenshunting.com/content/12-gauge-slug#ixzz1DzLza19r

Riflemen may shrug them off, but deer don't. Shotgun slugs are deadly at normal hunting ranges. If you're so unfortunate as to own just one gun for hunting and home defense, well, no long-gun muzzle is as imposing to intruders as the gaping maw of a 12 bore. Close a slide smartly in the dark, and whoever lurks beyond is going to leave.

Suitable Use

Modern slug loads are not only popular with deer hunters but with travelers in bear country as well. A park ranger I met in B.C. last year carried an 870 with slugs. For all big animals, 12-bore guns are best, as they offer the most power and widest choice of loads.

Contrary to campfire logic, slugs do not plow through brush undeflected. My tests with 12-gauge Fosters in screens of sagebrush produced slug deformation and tipping. Even with slugs that weigh as much as saltwater sinkers, you're smart to decline shots when there's brush in the way.

Ballistics

Most slugs leave the muzzle at between 1,450 and 1,600 fps. Magnum 3-inch 12-gauge loads push 1-ounce (437-gn.) slugs at 1,750 and lightweight (385-gn.) sabot bullets at 1,900. Conical sabot slugs can be zeroed to 100 yards.

The 325-grain Barnes in Federal ammo not only shoots flat but carries 1,600 ft-lbs to 125 steps, as do 385-grain Partition Golds by Winchester and Remington's Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded slugs. The soup-can-shaped Remington BuckHammer leaks energy faster but delivers 3,000 ft-lbs at the muzzle and 1,600 at 100 yards. Rottweil Brenneke slugs boast ton-and-a-half punch at the muzzle.

Read more: http://www.petersenshunting.com/content/12-gauge-slug#ixzz1DzMT1gBt

 

[gramps]

I guess the National Park Service is wrong to issue 12 ga to visiting biologists above the Artic Circle.
gramps

 

[black029]

This is like asking who is sexier, Brooklyn Decker or Alessandro Ambrosio............. they both work for me.
But have to go with the 125 gr .357 super hot loads, and will live or die with it

 

[Bucks Owin]

The biggest factor here is weapon proficiency. Very few people are willing to put the time and effort into mastering the heavy sixgun to the point where they can just draw and fire instinctively but we also have to remember, a bear is not gonna just stand there and let you shoot him with a shotgun either.

We are agreeing far too much lately amigo... :wink:

I haven't seen much interest in my "Feb Dangerous Game Shoot" but I would sure like to see a few "bear insurance" handgunners give it try with me. All ya gotta do is run in place for 30 seconds to get your heart/lungs working and then empty your hand howitzer into a charging paper plate as fast as you can. A little safer than facing a 1200 lb PO'ed Kodiak! :lol:

 

[CraigC]

Weird, huh?

As far as slugs and bears, I'm ignoring nothing. We're not talking about deer hunting, we're talking about stopping a charging bear. You need only penetrate a few inches to reach a deer's vitals and no bone breaking is necessary. HUGE difference! Again, more rhetoric and regurgiated nonsense about "the gaping maw of a 12ga muzzle" but nothing useful.

You have to ask yourself why they issue 12ga pumps. Again, cost is a major factor, especially with the USFS where funding is limited. Economics and other factors weigh heavy on any department's decision to issue a weapon to their officers. Just because an agency issues a weapon, does not necessarily mean it's the best tool for the job. However, I have seen where they issue .375 rifles to officers.

 

[RugerSP101]

Weird, huh?

As far as slugs and bears, I'm ignoring nothing. We're not talking about deer hunting, we're talking about stopping a charging bear. You need only penetrate a few inches to reach a deer's vitals and no bone breaking is necessary. HUGE difference! Again, more rhetoric and regurgiated nonsense about "the gaping maw of a 12ga muzzle" but nothing useful.

You have to ask yourself why they issue 12ga pumps. Again, cost is a major factor, especially with the USFS where funding is limited. Economics and other factors weigh heavy on any department's decision to issue a weapon to their officers. Just because an agency issues a weapon, does not necessarily mean it's the best tool for the job. However, I have seen where they issue .375 rifles to officers.

WOW.
Its almost like you passed entirely over my post...



Modern slug loads are not only popular with deer hunters but with travelers in bear country as well.
The 12-Gauge Slug

Read more: http://www.petersenshunting.com/content/12-gauge-slug#ixzz1DzLza19r

Riflemen may shrug them off, but deer don't. Shotgun slugs are deadly at normal hunting ranges. If you're so unfortunate as to own just one gun for hunting and home defense, well, no long-gun muzzle is as imposing to intruders as the gaping maw of a 12 bore. Close a slide smartly in the dark, and whoever lurks beyond is going to leave.

Suitable Use

Modern slug loads are not only popular with deer hunters but with travelers in bear country as well. A park ranger I met in B.C. last year carried an 870 with slugs. For all big animals, 12-bore guns are best, as they offer the most power and widest choice of loads.

Contrary to campfire logic, slugs do not plow through brush undeflected. My tests with 12-gauge Fosters in screens of sagebrush produced slug deformation and tipping. Even with slugs that weigh as much as saltwater sinkers, you're smart to decline shots when there's brush in the way.

Ballistics

Most slugs leave the muzzle at between 1,450 and 1,600 fps. Magnum 3-inch 12-gauge loads push 1-ounce (437-gn.) slugs at 1,750 and lightweight (385-gn.) sabot bullets at 1,900. Conical sabot slugs can be zeroed to 100 yards.

The 325-grain Barnes in Federal ammo not only shoots flat but carries 1,600 ft-lbs to 125 steps, as do 385-grain Partition Golds by Winchester and Remington's Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded slugs. The soup-can-shaped Remington BuckHammer leaks energy faster but delivers 3,000 ft-lbs at the muzzle and 1,600 at 100 yards. Rottweil Brenneke slugs boast ton-and-a-half punch at the muzzle.

Read more: http://www.petersenshunting.com/content/12-gauge-slug#ixzz1DzMT1gBt

 

[Bucks Owin]

I read some advice long ago with regard to shotguns and dangerous charging game like lions and bears. Said to load with heavy buck, not slug, sit down (!) and get in one well aimed shot at the last instant...Sounds like a plan if you have ice water in your veins! :shock: