30 Carbine Blackhawk problem

[casexxwilliams]

I'm new here, so please forgive me if this has been discussed. A while ago I purchased a 3-screw Blackhawk at a gun show. It was originally a 30 carbine chambering, but had been changed to 44 magnum. The action seemed OK, so I bought it, intending to make it a 30 caliber again. From Gunbroker, I bought a used 30 caliber barrel and an unused cylinder. The barrel threaded into the frame, stopping about 3/4 turn from having the sight upright. No surprise, the shoulder needs to be set back. The base pin fit the cylinder, but the cylinder would not enter the frame window. I thought since it was an unused part it needed to be slightly shortened to fit that frame. I took it to a semi-retired and extremely competent gunsmith to do that work. He just called to say that not only is the cylinder too long, it also is to large in diameter for the frame. Did Ruger change frame sizes on the 30 carbine at some point? Is this cylinder for a later frame? Does anyone know the answer to this problem?

 

[Ale-8(1)]

As far as I know, all the .30's were/are built on the "large" frame size and all the cylinders are made to fit.

Makes me wonder if you actually got a Ruger cylinder.

The other possibility is that what you have is actually an old .357 frame which was a little smaller.

And of course, I could be wrong . . . but in this case I think not.

JMHO

 

[Hondo44]

It must be stamped 30 Carbine on the frame or he wouldn't think it was originally a 30 Carbine. And they were all made on the large frame.

So you must be right about it not being a Ruger cylinder. A large frame Ruger cylinder will measure 1.730" + or - in diameter.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Since it has been converted, there's always a chance the frame marking was changed to .44 so I thought I'd mention it. He could have been TOLD it was a .30 gun by mistake. If he does have a cylinder chambered in .30 Carbine, that would almost have to be right, which only leaves the frame size as the problem.

I have an OM .30 that was re-done into a .44, but the frame marking was not revised, however. The barrel was marked, though. These "custom" things can prove interesting. In this case, we hope he has a .30 frame, because he can find a proper cylinder for it without TOO much trouble.

 

[casexxwilliams]

Thanks for the comments so far. The frame has the original 30 carbine marking, and has not been re-marked for the 44 conversion. The cylinder certainly looks like all the other Ruger cylinders I have. The frame is definitely not a 357 frame. As soon as I pick them up, I will post the frame serial number, and the little marking on the cylinder. Could this cylinder be for a new model?

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Could be, as I don't believe the original .30 cylinders were marked. Don't know about the New Models, but I doubt it.

It's good that you do have a .30 frame, though.

 

[Hondo44]

Factory NM and OM cylinders are the same diameter. The only difference in the NM cylinders is that the chambers are not recessed. But either will work in your 30 Carb. frame once the length is fitted to the frame.

I'll be real curious to know the diameter of your cylinder once you get it back.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

I measured my cylinders. As Hondo points out, both the original OM .30 cylinder and the one in my "converted" .30/.44 measure at or about 1.730" in diameter. A couple of New Model cylinders measure the same.

A measurement on your cylinder should resolve this.

Got my curiosity up.

 

[eric conrad]

If your fitting a new barrel to this OM have the gunsmith fit the cyl. The frame window is the same NM and OM it would be better to find a OM cyl. but if you have a NM fitted then you can shoot 32-20 and 30 carbine Find a gunsmith who knows Rugers.
I mess with my NM 30 carb. BH's but leave the OM alone. Not that many of them.
This is one of the top three fun BH's I have to shoot. Good idea to reload for the 30 carb.
Eric

 

[casexxwilliams]

On the left side of the frame is Ruger Blackhawk .30 carbine cal, and the Ruger eagle emblem. On the right side is the serial number 50-20943. The cylinder measures 1.730 and has the letter S stamped between two of the cylinders on the rear face. The chambers are not recessed. Placing the cylinder next to the frame as close as possible, I can look into the base pin hole and see that the cylinder hole is at least half the diameter of the hole too low. Even if the cylinder length is trimmed, it will not line up with the base pin. I am completely puzzled.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Well, ya got me. A number of things here don't add up.

Apparently an OM gun and a NM cylinder. Gun was probably made in 1972, last year for the OM's. The "S" is the factory proofmark.

The cylinder diameter would appear to be right.

Sure wish I could actually handle the pieces. Internet gunsmithing is kinda tricky . . . particularly since I'm no gunsmith anyway. I suspect there's more going on here than has been revealed.

Try this . . .

Make sure the hammer is at half-cock so the bolt is lowered down into the frame.

Turn the cylinder sideways to the frame "window" and slip it into place just to check the relative fit of the cylinder in the opening.

If the cylinder won't fit into the opening (it would be close), you almost certainly do not have a Ruger cylinder.

:? :roll: :?

 

[eric conrad]

I think Ale has this right.
Look for a OM cyl. Hard to find I know. Put a add here in classifieds and get ahold of the custom gun makers, Alan Harton, Clements, Bowen, etc.
With a new cyl. and barrel a gunsmith should be able to fit this. Cheaper to find a OM cyl.
Wish we could help more.
Eric

 

[casexxwilliams]

Thanks for all the comments. We all agree that it is an OM frame and a NM cylinder which is the correct diameter. I have tried the action on half-cock to withdraw the bolt, and the cylinder will absolutely not enter the frame window. I sent an e-mail to Ruger customer service asking for their take on the problem. We'll see what they say.
casexxwilliams

 

[Hondo44]

This has got to be the strangest mystery I've heard on this forum.

What is the frame window inside vertical dimension. It should be 1.746" if it's a large frame. If it measures 1.695" it's a mid size frame! Your gun was made in 1972 and I always assumed the old model .30s were on the large frame like the NMs. I don't own an Old Model 30 carbine but the 357 Old Models were made on the medium frame so perhaps the .30 carbine was as well!

Please measure the 44 Mag cylinder too. If it measures 1.679", that will also confirm you have a mid-size frame! And it's not considered safe to shoot with 44 Mags. Have you chambered a 44 Mag in it? Perhaps it's a 44 Spl which is a safe conversion on the mid size frame.

Also, you can not tell if it's a recessed chambered cylinder by looking w/o chambering a round because it's a rimless cartridge. If it's a NM cylinder as you say, and the size confirms, it would not be recessed.

If you confirm that it is a mid size frame from the dimensions above, I would be interested in buying it as is or buying the cylinder and barrel.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

As I mentioned earlier, I measured two OM .30 cylinders and they were of the 1.730" variety, just like other "large frame" stuff.

Both these cylinders fit nicely into their respective OM frames with adequate clearance, so the frames are of the "large" variety.

Something quite fishy here.

 

[casexxwilliams]

I'll try to answer the questions above in the order asked. My cheap inside/outside caliper is not good enough to quote sizes to the decimal place you are quoting, but it will do for comparison. I have the frame, the 44 cylinder and the 30 cylinder all in front of me. The frame window measurement confirms it is a large frame. That dimension is also identical to my OM Super Blackhawk. The 44 cylinder which came in the gun when I bought it is definitely a Ruger part, has recessed chambers, and is identical except for the flutes to the SBH cylinder. Overall length of the 44 cylinder and the 30 cylinder are the same. However, there are two differences. Cylinder body length of the 30 cylinder is shorter, which makes sense because that accounts for the rimless case projecting from the rear of the non-recessed cylinder. The small section surrounding the base pin at the front of the 30 cylinder is the same, but the notched section at the rear where the pawl turns the cylinder is about twice as deep but smaller in diameter than on the 44 cylinder. The 30 cylinder seems to chamber a carbine round normally, as much as I can tell without it being in the frame. I believe it has to be a NM cylinder. Since I already have three 44 magnums and six .357s and a 44 Special, I don't need another 44 unless I could make it a 10" barrel. I'm open to offers. Thanks for your ideas. casexxwilliams

 

[Ale-8(1)]

So are you now saying that the cylinder's diameter will allow it to fit into the frame if the length is corrected?

That would make sense.

 

[casexxwilliams]

Yes and no. The pawl gear portion of the cylinder is what is hanging it up, and if I remove material from it to allow the cylinder into the frame, because the pawl diameter is smaller I'm afraid the hand will not turn the cylinder correctly. Apparently I need an OM 30 carbine cylinder.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

I thought your "extremely competent" gunsmith had determined that the cylinder was too large in diameter . . . or the frame was too small . . . or something??

A truly competent 'smith would be able to sort this out for you, and determine if he needs an OM cylinder to do the job, which I suspect you do.

The OM .30 of mine that had been converted to .44 apparently used the Ruger cylinder reamed to .30 chambering, but some non-Ruger barrel. The builder got all the pieces together, but the smaller barrel diameter made the front sight too low, and his "trigger job" was so light it was absolutely dangerous. I only bought the gun because it was pretty (very nice blue job) and CHEAP.

I have since gotten the sear engagement corrected. but have not resolved the front sight situation. Guess we all have to buy one "super-duper custom" gun in our educational process. You have my sympathy.

 

[eric conrad]

They can be hard to find but they are out there. You need a OM cylinder. Good luck Eric

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Just for fun I measured nine guns.

The results, for better or worse, appear here http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=157510&p=1584177#p1584177

I'm getting out of this. Good luck with the project.

 

[Hondo44]

Thanks for all the comments. We all agree that it is an OM frame and a NM cylinder which is the correct diameter. I have tried the action on half-cock to withdraw the bolt, and the cylinder will absolutely not enter the frame window. I sent an e-mail to Ruger customer service asking for their take on the problem. We'll see what they say.
casexxwilliams

You turned it crosswise like Ale suggested (perpendicular to the barrel) and it still wouldn't fit thru the frame???

If it does fit, the problem is not your ratchet. It should stick out about twice as far as the 44 because the 44 is recessed and you said the 30 is not (the case heads stick out right?) so you'll have a larger gap from the rear face of the cylinder to the breechface.

So the problem is normal! The front boss on the 30 cylinder is too long and must be fitted. If the gunsmith didn't know that he must be a piano tuner or something else. That's what you want. The cylinder is worthless if too short! And finding the exact correct length even an OM cylinder is highly unlikely!

Then you fit the barrel to the front of the cylinder face for the proper gap after aligning the site like you said originally. After all this you don't have any problem at all except the "gunsmith"!