grumpy7159
Bearcat
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2014
- Messages
- 30
Looked at a box of 22wrf today and noticed a warning on the box that said " not recommended for revolvers". What is the reasoning for this?
22wrf in revolvers?
- Thread starter grumpy7159
- Start date
LuckenbachTexas
Buckeye
Because it has excessive muzzle blast and/or the company has another more expensive version they want you to buy.
CraigC
Hawkeye
He asked about WRF, not .22Mag.LuckenbachTexas said:
The .22WRF works fine in revolvers, despite the silly legal disclaimer on the box.
LuckenbachTexas
Buckeye
My bad
BearBio
Buckeye
CraigC said:
The 22 WRF will work in MAGNUM cylinders. On older guns, the casing may split if the chamber is a little sloppy. Will be too long and larger diameter than a 22 LR.
Bob Wright
Hawkeye
For several years I used my Ruger Super Single Six for squirrel hunting in west Tennessee. I had the .22 Magnum (WMR) cylinder in place and loaded with .22 WRF cartridges. The .22 WRF performed exceedingly well for the task. My reason for this was that the slightly larger .22 WRF (compared to .22 L.R.) cartridges were easier to handle with cold hands.
Bob Wright
Bob Wright
OP
grumpy7159
Bearcat
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2014
- Messages
- 30
Thank you for the information
Hondo44
Hawkeye
I use the WRF because it's usually a $1 a box less than WMR/MRF and hard to tell the difference in performance. There are some pretty spiffy loads, especially by CCI.
Fountain E. Conner
Single-Sixer
Hondo44 said:
Where do you get WRF???
I have some left, but haven't seen any for sale for a year now. My wife likes them at the range, because they are tamer than WMR.
Hondo44
Hawkeye
A local shop has a bunch of new production Winchester with the old style artwork on the box.. Nobody seems to buy it. I find CCI at local gunshows mostly. Companies will gear up and make a short run. Then as inventory dries up, they'll make another every few years. When I do find it. I stock up to hopefully accelerate their next production run.
I suspect that right now they are running standard .22s full time to catch up with demand. Ask your local store to order it or look here: ammoseek.com
I suspect that right now they are running standard .22s full time to catch up with demand. Ask your local store to order it or look here: ammoseek.com
Since I haven't seen any actual .22 LR on a store shelf since Sandy Hook... I went to look at ammoseek.com just for fun. That scares me more than anything. Are people actually routinely paying $50++ for a brick of just plain vanilla .22 LR? No wonder it never seems to come back into stock at regular prices!
Mike Armstrong
Hunter
Some .22 WRM guns are more accurate with .22 WRF than the "magnum" rounds they were made for. I have a bunch of ".22 magnums," and two of them, a 1960 Win Model 61M pump rifle and a 1998 4" S&W 651 .22 WRM "kit gun," shoot noticeably more accurately with .22 WRF.
I also find that .22 WRF seems to kill medium-sized critters (jackrabbits, possums, raccoons, woodchucks), much better in a handgun than any .22 LR except the CCI SGB (Small Game Bullet) load.
I have NO idea why there is that warning about using .22WRF in handguns, since Colt chambered handguns specifically for it ("Police Positive" and "Police Positive Target"). I suspect a legal counsel who didn't know much about guns.
I also find that .22 WRF seems to kill medium-sized critters (jackrabbits, possums, raccoons, woodchucks), much better in a handgun than any .22 LR except the CCI SGB (Small Game Bullet) load.
I have NO idea why there is that warning about using .22WRF in handguns, since Colt chambered handguns specifically for it ("Police Positive" and "Police Positive Target"). I suspect a legal counsel who didn't know much about guns.
I can scarcely believe I've lived 60 years and never encountered WRF cartridges. What's it mean - Winchester RimFire? From REP1954's picture the rounds look to be the same size as the .22 magnum (WMR). Could someone explain to me the genesis of these? I'm completely stymied and tickled, too. It's 3:48 am so that might explain my semi-blown mind that this post and thread have caused. From this day forward I simply have to search for a box of them.
Mike Armstrong
Hunter
The .22 Winchester Rim Fire came out in the Winchester 1890, a hammer pump .22 that was the ancestor of the Model 62 (and the Brazilian copies of that which are still made). It was popular because of its increased killing power over the blackpowder .22 shells of the time--it had more velocity and a heavier flat point bullet and was used by many trappers and other backwoodsmen as a "do all" cartridge in somewhat the same way that the .25-20 and .32-20 were at that time. And the 1890 was a takedown rifle, very attractive if you live for long periods out of a backpack or a canoe. The old name for the blackpowder version of the .22 WRF was ".22-7-45:" a .22 cal 45 gr bullet with 7 grains of black powder.
A little later Remington adopted the same ctg., but called it the ".22 Remington Special." And THAT name stuck for some reason (I guess they all wanted to be "special" back then, too....). Many, perhaps even most, people even up into the 1950s, called the .22 WRF the ".22 Special."
There weren't a lot of different rifles and handguns made for the .22 WRF, but the ones that were made were popular up until the .22 LR Hi-speed ctgs. became common. I can think of these model rifles: Win Models 1890, 1885, 67, 68, 61, Rem 12, Stevens 44. There were certainly a few others I don't remember.
Revolvers were few: the only ones I remember were the Colt "Police Positive," and "Police Positive Target," and a VERY few SAAs. The H&R "22 Special" model is actually chambered for .22 LR, Long, and Short, and I've never encountered one in .22 WRF. There may be some.
The principal use of the .22 WRF now is as a subload for .22 WRM chambered guns, mainly for hunting small game. It is VERY good for that, and gives "just enough" power in a .22 WRM handgun to kill reliably without meat loss, as one of the previous posters pointed out.
A little later Remington adopted the same ctg., but called it the ".22 Remington Special." And THAT name stuck for some reason (I guess they all wanted to be "special" back then, too....). Many, perhaps even most, people even up into the 1950s, called the .22 WRF the ".22 Special."
There weren't a lot of different rifles and handguns made for the .22 WRF, but the ones that were made were popular up until the .22 LR Hi-speed ctgs. became common. I can think of these model rifles: Win Models 1890, 1885, 67, 68, 61, Rem 12, Stevens 44. There were certainly a few others I don't remember.
Revolvers were few: the only ones I remember were the Colt "Police Positive," and "Police Positive Target," and a VERY few SAAs. The H&R "22 Special" model is actually chambered for .22 LR, Long, and Short, and I've never encountered one in .22 WRF. There may be some.
The principal use of the .22 WRF now is as a subload for .22 WRM chambered guns, mainly for hunting small game. It is VERY good for that, and gives "just enough" power in a .22 WRM handgun to kill reliably without meat loss, as one of the previous posters pointed out.
Hondo44
Hawkeye
Mike,
Great history, thx. The biggest surprise was the SAA. I've never seen anything mentioned in all my study of the Colt SAA, I must have every book there is. Was that other brands of SAAs or after market conversions of Colts?
Great history, thx. The biggest surprise was the SAA. I've never seen anything mentioned in all my study of the Colt SAA, I must have every book there is. Was that other brands of SAAs or after market conversions of Colts?
Mike Armstrong
Hunter
I believe there were only one or two, but don't remember where they were cited, and they possibly may have been aftermarket conversions of .22 LR SAAs, which are rare enough, or ammo testing "mules".
Fountain E. Conner
Single-Sixer
adam12 said:
I spoke 'way too soon. This has already been handled better than my reply, but will leave this in place since I don't know how to delete it.
As I understand, WMR is the "original" .22 magnum. It is a "kinder, gentler" load... if a round that agressive could be so-described.
I'm looking at one of each side-by-side.
The wrf case is case is about 5/8" long, bullet wt is 45 grains.
The wmr that I'm looking-at is a .22 Winchester Magnum jacked hollow point. The case is 1" long, and the bullet is 40 grains.
The exposed bullet length is about the same on each.
My wife carries a S&W 351C, practices with the "tamer" WRF, and carries the "magnum" -- Yes, I know it's too small, and underpowered, but it's all she can handle with arthritic hands and fingers.
I'm sure the "older hands" on this forum can be more helpful than I, and I'll learn more from their replies
Hondo44
Hawkeye
Fountain,
Not to criticize, but you may have meant 7/8" for the WRF. Or if you measured 5/8" you may have picked up a .22 Winchester Auto cartridge.
Not to criticize, but you may have meant 7/8" for the WRF. Or if you measured 5/8" you may have picked up a .22 Winchester Auto cartridge.
Fountain E. Conner
Single-Sixer
Hondo44 said:
You're dead-on there. 7/8", it is.
Mike Armstrong
Hunter
I'll say it again, a .22 WRM anywhere in the body cavity is seriously deadly. Used to be an administrator in a community college that ran both the regional EMT training and police academy, so I've talked to lots of people with up-close experience of gunshot wounds. EMTs, trauma docs, and other first responders DO NOT like the WRM because of its tendency to fragment even on soft tissue at usual handgun self-defense shooting ranges. The little bits of jacket and core slice and dice and also get into vessels and end up in places where sharp foreign bodies do delayed-action mayhem.
A .22 Magnum is no "stopper," in the sense that it won't blow an assailant out of his/her socks. But it does usually allow for quick repeat shots--the trauma adds up--and it is comfortable for many non-shooters to handle and get comfortable with. And often that is the whole ball game.
When I bought my S&W 651 from a Florida dealer, he told me that he called it a "Senior Citizen's Friend." Now that I are one, arthritic hands and all, I think that IS an apt description.
A .22 Magnum is no "stopper," in the sense that it won't blow an assailant out of his/her socks. But it does usually allow for quick repeat shots--the trauma adds up--and it is comfortable for many non-shooters to handle and get comfortable with. And often that is the whole ball game.
When I bought my S&W 651 from a Florida dealer, he told me that he called it a "Senior Citizen's Friend." Now that I are one, arthritic hands and all, I think that IS an apt description.
Mike Armstrong
Hunter
A little more ".22 WRF history:" the latest reference to anybody making guns specifically chambered for this round is the 1955 Winchester catalog which mentions that Model 61 pumps are available in .22 WRF. I suspect that those were "leftovers" using up old replacement parts, but can't prove it (pretty common practice, tho). The 61M in .22 WRM didn't come along until late 1959 or very early 1960. Mine was made in mid-1960.
Back when Sportsman's Warehouse was still in Wisconsin, I bought a box of CCI 22 wrf to try in a Marlin M 25 22 magnum. The Marlin was reluctantly sold to me by a friend who warned me he could not get any respectable accuracy out of it with any 22 mag ammo he tried. The CCI 22 wrf ammo was outstanding. Group shrank by so much I was stunned. Literally from 1 1/2" AT 25 YARDS, to about 3/8". I shot a few in a stainless Ruger single six convertible and did not get a similar improvement.
I called CCI and talked to a woman, who was one of the most knowledgeable techs I have ever had he pleasure to talk too, who explained several things to me. First of all she knew all about Marlin micro groove and told me she was not surprised at the rifle's improvement because the bullet they load into the 22 wrf is a Speer Gold Dot jacketed hollow point that measures .2265" and it fills the micro groove. That Marlin is now deadly, so good I sprang for an after market trigger. It is my go to, something needs killin' in the yard/garden gun. Target out to 60 yards is the eye ball.
Now as to the revolver warning. While the tech had me on the phone, she chastised me for shooting them in the Single Six, asking me, "Didn't you see the warning on the box?" Well actually, no I had not. She went on to explain that CCI had to replace some bulged barrels on some revolvers after the jacketed .2265" Gold Dot stuck in the bore and the shooter fired another round. The worst example she told me of consisted of a Colt shooter who finally stopped when the 7th round bridged the barrel cylinder gap and tied up the revolver. Apparently the over size for convertible revolver barrels bullet sticks and the gas vents out of the barrel cylinder gap. The warning helps CCI avoid paying for repairs.
I went back to Sportsman's and bought a brick of 500 for like $67.00. I ration them like gold.
Sorry for the long winded post but that's the story.
I called CCI and talked to a woman, who was one of the most knowledgeable techs I have ever had he pleasure to talk too, who explained several things to me. First of all she knew all about Marlin micro groove and told me she was not surprised at the rifle's improvement because the bullet they load into the 22 wrf is a Speer Gold Dot jacketed hollow point that measures .2265" and it fills the micro groove. That Marlin is now deadly, so good I sprang for an after market trigger. It is my go to, something needs killin' in the yard/garden gun. Target out to 60 yards is the eye ball.
Now as to the revolver warning. While the tech had me on the phone, she chastised me for shooting them in the Single Six, asking me, "Didn't you see the warning on the box?" Well actually, no I had not. She went on to explain that CCI had to replace some bulged barrels on some revolvers after the jacketed .2265" Gold Dot stuck in the bore and the shooter fired another round. The worst example she told me of consisted of a Colt shooter who finally stopped when the 7th round bridged the barrel cylinder gap and tied up the revolver. Apparently the over size for convertible revolver barrels bullet sticks and the gas vents out of the barrel cylinder gap. The warning helps CCI avoid paying for repairs.
I went back to Sportsman's and bought a brick of 500 for like $67.00. I ration them like gold.
Sorry for the long winded post but that's the story.
Mike Armstrong
Hunter
One of the regular writers for "Rifle" magazine (can't remember which one) had similar experience with .22 WRF in his Marlin bolt action .22 Magnum--dramatic increase in accuracy. He used the Marlin /.22 WRF combination on Western rock squirrels, a difficult target at best.
Hondo44
Hawkeye
Plumbous1,
Very interesting! Rugers don't have any problem with the Winchester WRF in the tan old timey boxes and surprisingly accurate, considering the copper plated bullet bullets are .220".
Thx!
Very interesting! Rugers don't have any problem with the Winchester WRF in the tan old timey boxes and surprisingly accurate, considering the copper plated bullet bullets are .220".
Thx!
hammie
Single-Sixer
I think the CCI tech was wrong. The warning means only what it says: don't use in revolvers CHAMBERED for .22 Winchester rimfire. If the revolver is chambered for .22 Winchester rimfire magnum, then it is okay.
Hondo44
Hawkeye
The warning I was referring to came from a Marlin Firearms tech. The allegation was that the larger bullets of the CCI WRF (Winchester rim fire) work fine in Marlin's rifles but not in Ruger WRM (Winch Rim-fire Magnum) revolvers.
When I read that, I knew I was going to have to find some CCI WRF and mic the bullets myself to verify.
When I read that, I knew I was going to have to find some CCI WRF and mic the bullets myself to verify.
BearBio
Buckeye
I kept a Ruger Single Six loaded with either 22 WMR or WMF (Whatever I had available) in my first apartment in North Hollywood for a while.
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