Why seal the buttplate on the tupperware stock?

[gutthans]

:roll: Ok, I know I'll get flack for this but...I'm taking a typical synthetic 10/22 stock, with the factory barrel and modding it. What? everyone's already done that...OK, who's filled the stock and grip with sand? Why would you do that?

Look, I know I can drop a lot of $$$ on a Kidd or other high dollar rig. I can get by cheaper with a Boyd or Mike's... but how good can I get a factory (free with the rifle) stock to shoot :?: I'm taking the typical 'anystock' upgrades (Kidd trigger, Buffer bolt, bedding job) and planning on producing a cheapo 10/22 that shoots good enough and CHEAP enough to make you think about keeping that cheap factory stock...Why? Well, why the heck not? All the research is out there on the net. Check me in a few weeks after I've done the mods and shooting. The groups will either be outstanding, or not...but I think it will be an interesting experiment. If I succeed I'll have a link to the build pics...if not, I'll still have a decent shooter.

 

[Kevin]

Go for it. Not a bad idea to fill the polymer stock with sand. There are plenty of videos on YouTube for do it yourself trigger jobs. What else are you thinking?

 

[gutthans]

I planned on doing the basic stuff everyone does to any stock, regardless of the stock's cost...Trigger improvement, buffer bolt, bedding, and free-floating. Once that's done I start shot testing with common ammo and add in sand to the stock until I get best groups. I'll probably try water as well (since the stock no longer leaks) since that is also tunable for/by volume.

These are free DIY tricks that may produce neat results...don't know, but understand the mechanical principles that say it may.

My final option, will be to consider full length bedding of the barrel with Flexathane-80. Again not for support but for harmonic cancellation of the barrel oscillation. If that happens to make it worse, I can easily strip that back out of the Fore end without harm. Should be fun to try...

 

[GunnyGene]

Why sand? I know it's cheaper than lead shot, but I've heard of folks adding birdshot to stocks. I use #7 1/2 shot in the dead blow mallets I've made. Seems it would work in a stock also.

 

[gutthans]

Because...Ok, actually for a couple of reasons...air doesn't transmit/absorb vibration as effectively as other substances. Lead shot has more air volume (in between the pellets) than tiny grains of sand would. Although the lead would be more dense, have more mass I think the air volume would actually impede the ability to act as an absorbent for shock waves. The cycling action would transmit more vibration to the barrel with lead than with sand (at least, that's my speculation). And, yes, it's cheaper (as in free). Anyway, I'll actually go find out. It'd be great if someone had the necessary test equipment to scientifically check it out, but I'll settle for excellent groups as a de facto proof (IF it actually works).

 

[grayelky]

This is kinda new to me, so if my suggestion is left field, please just shrug it off as coming from someone who does not know what he is doing!

I have talked to a couple of folks who have filled their center fire, hollow plastic stocks with Great Stuff (yes, the spray foam draft sealant). They claim it seems to reduce recoil SLIGHTLY, and deadens sound if hey bump an object. Draw back is, once it is in, you can't drain some out like sand or lead shot.

 

[Kevin]

This is very interesting, I have a couple hogue plastic stocks, I might give this a try. As far as your argument against lead, I would think if you are trying for a certain weight, wouldn't lead leave more open space (air) in the rest of the cavity? I mean a stock filled completely with lead might be a little on the heavy side. Plus the lead pellets themselves aren't going to move as much during recoil as sand will. I would think water would have waves during recoil causing the stock to move.

 

[blume357]

I guess if you want to try it, go for it. But I'm trying to figure out how this is going to improve your shooting and how it improves the rifle..... reducing recoil on a 10/22?

 

[Kevin]

Oh come on Blume, Don't you stay awake at night worrying about the harmonic balance of you 22? Wondering how to get a group size just a millimeter less?

I really don't think it would matter too much. I have an extremely heavy Kimber of Oregon 82G. I haven't compared them side by side, but my 10/22 with the 16 1/4 barrel and light weight stock seems to be just as accurate. Maybe even a little more.

 

[Laserbait]

I'm interested in this experiment. Please keep us updated!

 

[jjas]

Everyone has different ideas as to how accurate their 10/22 should be....

With mine, I can kill a squirrel or roll a can offhand out to 35-40 yards easy enough and that works for me......

 

[gutthans]

Although my 10/22 is accurate enough out-of-the-box, it seems fun to grab for more 'free' accuracy. My preference for sand over lead is simply that lead balls only touch a miniscule amount. The vibrations only move effectively where the balls touch, not in the surrounding airspaces. Sand, while less dense, is smaller, leaves less room for air, and has more contact surface...Ergo, it will move vibrations better than lead balls.

Water might work as well. It's non-compressibility may be more effective at transmission with less weight, than lead. Again, we aren't eliminating vibrations...just giving them somewhere else to go other than into the barrel. Ultimately, it will be your body that soaks up the energy IF the medium gets the energy into the stock effectively.

Epoxy bedding is drying for the next 2 days...

 

[gtxmonte]

I don't think the "density" of whatever you put in the stock is going to matter. The weight making the rifle more stable is what will improve groups. Trying to improve barrel/reciever harmonics, by various medias in the stock, will result in nothing............at least that is my opinion.

Good barrels, good triggers, good ammo and stability is what will make it shoot. I think whatever you do, in the end, it will only shoot as well as the barrel will allow it to.

 

[Kevin]

Gtxmonte~ I believe you might be correct. Not just as good as the barrel but the nut behind the trigger also plays an important role. Some days the best gun in the world wouldn't change a darn thing in my groups. Other days I go home happy.

 

[gutthans]

While I appreciate your thoughts gentlemen, I think it better to actually find out. I have believed many things that turned out to be at least partially incorrect.

Mass helps with recoil (harder to move heavier stuff). Density enables better wave propagation...that is why sound travels much further under water (water is considerably denser than air). The same type of principle essentially applies to electricity and heat, both of which have distinctly different transmission values in differing substances. The charts are readily available online if you need to see what I'm describing.

Here's a link to the project as it is now: http://s1230.photobucket.com/user/gutthans/library/RUGER%2010%2022

For a great set of shots for the receiver prep go to www.ballisticstudies.com

 

[gtxmonte]

This is a 22, not a 300 Win mag. If the barrel is "free floated" as you mentioned, it won't transfer anything to the stock if it is not touching it. Aside from the fact that 22s have little recoil anyway, what if any transferred to the stock from the receiver, won't care what's in there.

 

[gutthans]

This is a 22, not a 300 Win mag. If the barrel is "free floated" as you mentioned, it won't transfer anything to the stock if it is not touching it. Aside from the fact that 22s have little recoil anyway, what if any transferred to the stock from the receiver, won't care what's in there.

Uh...not so gtx. The barrel and action act as one piece. They both vibrate along the entire length.

The oscillations have the greatest potential for movement at the very end of the barrel (which is why bullet POIs move). You can bed the whole barrel, but critics of that argue that it only helps in the downward oscillation and does little for the rebound upswing.

Tension bedding in RTV seems to work, and I'm experimenting with that addition later. For now though, please understand that I am looking for the sand/water/lead to add transfer mass to the whole barrel/action assembly...the idea being there will be less total to vibrate at the barrel end. Since the bedding anchors the action/barrel to the stock, the added mass becomes part of the total available, and the stock also vibrates. The end result SHOULD be less at any single point in the assembly, ergo, the muzzle movement should be reduced...we'll see!

 

[dakota1911]

I am glad you can't get large amounts of Mercury anymore. I remember the FLGRs in 1911s that were filled with Mercury.

Now is the sand cat box sand, beach sand. Maybe black sand. Hey, its a hobby. Have fun.

 

[gutthans]

Note: 4 shot and 3 shot groups

[URL=http://s1230.photobucket.com/u...ee485/gutthans/RUGER 10 22/IMG_0518.jpg[/img][/url]


[URL=http://s1230.photobucket.com/u...ee485/gutthans/RUGER 10 22/IMG_0516.jpg[/img][/url]

[URL=http://s1230.photobucket.com/u...ee485/gutthans/RUGER 10 22/IMG_0519.jpg[/img][/url]

First days baseline tests. Empty stock and grip. Remington THUNDERBOLT 40 gr. LRN 50 yd. target range. Epoxy filled forend/bedded receiver/Kidd Single Stage Trigger group. 7 mph crosswind

 

[Kevin]

What's wrong, couldn't get them all in the same hole?

Nice shooting! What was the barrel, standard factory or aftermarket?

Do you plan on filling the stock then? At what point would you say to leave well enough alone? I mean that is pretty good. And apparently you were able to repeat the results several times...