Revolver education. help.

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Varminterror

Blackhawk
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
513
I have been shooting dragoon/square back Rugers for 20yrs, I've never had a problem with getting my knuckles whacked.

A lot of people on the web do complain about it, though, so I would not give my experience without mentioning that fact.

The easy answer for you is to simply buy the hunter frame. Since you are buying frames, the hunter gives you what you want - which is big size, but doesn't have anything that you'd need to worry about - finger crushing square back trigger guard. So the question is moot. Just go Hunter.
 

Varminterror

Blackhawk
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
513
roylt said:
What does "in the white" mean when buying a new grip frame?

Technically, "In the white" refers back to blue printing terminology where a finished product would be "blue printed," but many parts would be produced oversized such that their size goes over the blue line into the white of the page... "in the white"... And those parts would require fitting to bring into specification.

But more and more this is getting used to mean "carbon steel sans finish." So on the grip frames, the "in the white" frames are carbon steel that can be blued, whereas the stainless steel parts cannot.

So technically, all of the grip frames Midway and Brownells sell for Rugers are "in the white" in the traditional sense, as they are oversized and need significant sizing to bring into final/finished product dimension. BUT, the Ruger grip frames at Midway/Brownells/Etc that are listed as "in the white" are also carbon steel that will need a finish. The Midway and Brownells listings for Stainless grip frames, of course, are stainless.
 

roylt

Hunter
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
3,109
Thanks.
I have been following a build in the smith section and the bug really got to me. Also someone on here offered me a "deal" for a new frame and hammer. Turned out the "deal" was 25 bucks more than Midway so I purchased from there. I also got grips to match that were on clearance!!

Now I need to try to find more info on the internals so I know when to duck as I take the revolver apart and springs go flying past my head. HAHA
 

Varminterror

Blackhawk
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
513
Glad you're gaining momentum on your project! If you need any help with learning what makes the Ruger Single Action tick, ask away, there are a bunch of fellas on here that have been doing open heart surgery on Rugers for a long time (myself included). I actually have 4 Ruger Single actions in line right now on my own work bench, new grip frames, ejector systems, sights, internals, hammers, triggers, pretty much complete overhauls. The aftermarket support is fantastic, so they're kinda like the AR-15 of the single action world, and a guy has to do a pretty extensive project to find his way somewhere that hasn't been done before and isn't posted online!! But the best news is that they're really easy to "make your own".

So what parts did you order?
 

roylt

Hunter
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
3,109
I got a hunter grip frame, set of rosewood grips (clearance for some reason??), went bisley for the hammer, and then a few odds and ends, loading gate and I forget what the last rod is called but it goes into the cylinder to hold it in place.

I may need a few more things but this is more than my budget could really handle. I'll have to scrape some more pennies together in time.

As for questions.... I'm sure I'll have a lot. Is there a complete teardown of a single action anyplace? I learned a lot from the teardown of a P89 before I really got into those.

Also thanks for the info and offer to help more.
 

Varminterror

Blackhawk
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
513
Ruger Single Action Shop Manual from Midwayusa

I don't personally own this, but it comes highly recommended by a lot of folks as a "how to" for working on Ruger SA's. The mechanism is pretty stinking simple though - if I could figure it out, just about anybody should be able to.

The "rod that holds the cylinder in place" is the "basepin" or "mainpin" (which I've always thought was caddywhompus, since the "mainspring" and the "mainpin" aren't related.

I'm hoping you've noticed elsewhere, but you'll have to do some carving on that Bisley hammer to make it fit in the Hunter frame. Since you said you were following another build on here - which I'll assume is Sharps40's Arthritis project (which I've also been following intently on the OTHER RF) - you'll see what I'm talking about in his pics. Sharps40 used the original hammer as a template for the curvature, but there's another technique that involves taking just enough off of the bottom heel of the hammer to let you install it (won't function) then tracing the grip frame bosses on each side. Traditionally, Ruger SA's have a void behind the hammer sunken between the bosses (where the two rear screws mount the gripframe to the cylinder frame). When starting with a Bisley hammer, you can leave it larger diameter than a standard hammer and file it flush with the profile of the bosses to give it a really nice clean, professional look. Sharps' way does look more "factory," and there's nothing wrong with either way, just throwing out another option.
 

roylt

Hunter
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
3,109
I think I get what you are saying about the shape of the hammer but do you have a picture you could post?

Sharps40 told me about that book too.

Thanks,
 

Varminterror

Blackhawk
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
513
RugerSB44MAG3.jpg


You can see here how the radius of the bottom end of the hammer - the "wheel" - is smaller diameter than the frame bosses, so it's sunken in the frame a bit.

While this pic below isn't a Bisley hammer (it's a Montado, same as an SBH hammer but with different checkering on the spur), you can see that it's almost the same diameter as the bosses, such that it fills that void, and gives a cleaner look.

orig.jpg


So if you trace the original hammer onto the bisley hammer, it'll look like the top picture. If you trace the frame bosses, it'll look like the second picture.
 

roylt

Hunter
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
3,109
That is what I thought you meant. Thanks for explaining though.

Where does one get a Montado hammer? That looks nice.
 

Hondo44

Hawkeye
Joined
Apr 3, 2009
Messages
8,051
Location
People's Republik of California
Since Montado Vaqueros were limited production, the hammers are hard to find. Try Ruger 1st. They were holding onto their inventory off and on so just keep trying. I too like the Hunter grip frame especially on my Super Blackhawk but also this large frame 45 Vaquero:
medium800.jpg


Some helpful videos for the new model:

Video: Good New Model Ruger disassembly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfOXBa8K8Ow

NM Reassembly (shows hammer plunger assembly too):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zEKDqwkgEs&feature=related

Swapping grip frames and hammers are my specialties.

1. Interchangeability of grip frames:
In general, All Ruger SA grip frames including SBH Dragoon, Old Army, Bisley and Birdshead (excluding Bearcats of course) will interchange from the standpoint of the screw pattern from Single Six to Super BH, Old Model to New Model, and even NM to OM.

All the screws, springs and pins can be transferred over from existing GF. The exception is you need the two hex head capscrews for installing a Bisley GF.

Depending on model and vintage, be aware of;
matching the grip frame 'ears'* to main frame,
a simple modification is required for NMs with free spin pawl/cylinder alignment**,
and internal locks ***,
grip frame projections ****.
NM trigger return spring on old model guns*****.

*The 'ear' details to be aware of: Below are photos of the ears around the base of the hammer The height varies on all grip frame ears slightly but there was one specific big increase. To simplify production in about 1997, Ruger increased the height of the standard cylinder frame mating surfaces on both sides of the hammer 1/16" to match the Bisley model frame ears so any style grip frame could be assembled to any main frame. Therefore the ears on all other grip frame after 1997 had to be made 1/16" taller as well. So there's basically two sizes: as short as .530" pre 1997 and as tall as .590" after 1997; measured from the very top edge of the grip panel to the top of the ears. That's why swaps are simplified if any acquired grip frame matches the vintage of your Ruger that you want to put it on. For example: Original Vaqueros over serial range 56-XXXXX.

The grip frame 'ears':
orig.jpg


orig.jpg



EARS & Hammer Base sizes: Also, Ruger has only enlarged the base of the hammer to match the ears on the new style hammers such as the New Vaq standard 'long horn' and Montado hammers, and the NM Flat Top Blackhawk hammers. All other existing hammers on current model guns do not match well.

**"Indexing Pawl System" All the NM FT Blackhawks and NEW Vaqs have this system which allows the cyl to roll backwards enough for the chambers to align to the loading gate chute without the hammer on half cock (which can't be done on a new model). You can see the device (3 parts) in the hammer channel to the lower left of the cyl pin hole shown below. Grip frames from models w/o this system need a divot cut for the free spin cyl pawl.

Hex retaining screw in hammer channel:
262de92c-215a-4d67-bcff-3d6b0ec2e91b.jpg


Indexing pawl button:
plunger_zpsff30681b.jpg


Ruger free spin pawl on the right:
10-17-2010_1a.jpg


Divot for free spin pawl on NM Flat Tops and New Vaqueros with the indexing pawl system shown on the left:
10-17-2010_3a.jpg


Cutting the divot: To locate this notch, take a measurement from the location on your original GF. Or mark that area on the replacement GF with a magic marker, assemble the GF to the gun, then cock the hammer a few times. This will leave a 'witness' mark in the marker ink, so you simply make the "divot" there. Be cautious not to let the cut extend to the outside edge of the grip frame or it will show when assembled, and don't cut notch too deep!
Use a thin cut-off blade in a Dremel tool. With grip frame in a vice, and your old grip frame nearby for reference, hold the Dremel with two hands for control. And replicate the divot in the new grip frame. You can also clamp the Dremel tool in the vice at an angle and hold the grip frame instead.

*** Internal Locks: Some of the past years NM XR3-RED aluminum and blue XR3 steel GFs have the internal lock (NOT current production). The lock can easily be eliminated using a Bearcat spring seat which is long enough to bridge the longer gap.
Lock shown here: http://www.gunblast.com/images/Hamm_Ruger-SA-GripFrames/DSC00231.jpg

Bearcat spring seat shown here: http://www.gunblast.com/images/Hamm_Ruger-SA-GripFrames/Dsc00106.jpg

Brownells #780-000-948AK, $2.12, here:
http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/frame-parts/mainspring-parts/mainsprings/mainspring-seat-sku780000948-11856-28534.aspx?sku=780000948

**** Grip Frame Projections shown here pointing to the left just above the two rear trigger guard screws and under where the hammer would be. To fit grip frames with projections to guns w/o the cut out in the cyl frame, just saw or grind off the projections:
bis-bad-fit.jpg


*****Trigger springs when using NM GFs on OM guns. Ask me for: 'Adapting NM grip frame to OM 3 screw & OM to NM'.

2. Birds head grip frames: Although one of the easiest swaps and the correct vintage Birdshead is a drop in, two details to be aware of: 1. For Rugers with the Indexing Pawl System to align the cyl chambers with the loading gate chute, the preferred birdshead grip is one that came from a New Vaq. introduced in 2005. If not, the slight divot needs to be reproduced in the birdshead GF as explained above. Birdshead grip frames w/o the divot were introduced on the original Vaq in early 2002. All Birds Head grip frames have tall ears.

3. Bisley grip frames: Because of the standard plow handle main frame angle on old models and pre 1997 new models shown below, that were made for low eared grip frames, fitting the top of Bisley grip frames to Old model guns and pre 1997 NMs can be a little more challenging as you can see. If you try to maintain the angle of the main frame, you run out of metal on the Bisley grip before you would ever mate the two together. The solution is to carefully decrease the angle of the main frame at the recoil shield. Of course both spots will require a little touch up with cold blue on blue guns, but is in such a protected area, there's little chance of wearing it off. Plus the original grip frame will still mate up properly.

DSC01678-1_zpsad4c7033.jpg


4. If your grip frame is an XR3 size or Bisley, the front grip strap is 1/8" closer to the back of the trigger guard than the standard XR3-RED size grip frames, SBH Dragoon, etc. The XR3-RED size aluminum and same size steel grip frames have the benefit of not rapping the knuckle under recoil.

Here's a good illustration of the increased difference (1/8") in horizontal finger distance behind the trigger guard on the Hunter (and standard XR3-RED size Gripframe), compared to the Bisley grip with less space. The Hunter and Bisley GFs I've measured are actually identical in vertical forestrap length space for fingers to the butt. But the Bisley is longer on the backstrap which I think is why some prefer it: http://www.dustinlinebaugh.com/gallery_009.htm

5. Just to be aware: the New Model flat top BH & NEW Vaquero XR3 size steel grip frames are 7/16" thick, all other steel and aluminum frames are 1/2" but this does not affect the interchangeability, just the feel in your hand.

You should check out this site for good illustrations of the different size grip frames, albeit, no interchangeability instructions.
http://www.gunblast.com/Hamm_Ruger-SA-GripFrames.htm

Note - when installing grip frames:
Always check the screw holes for machining chips left in them from production and clean them out if present. Install Install all five screws but do not cinch them tight. Align the grip frame edges flush with the cyl frame by tapping with the butt of a plastic handled screw driver. Tighten one trigger guard screw, then front screw and then one ear screw. Then tighten them all.
________________________________________

#1. REPLACING JUST HAMMER and/or PAWL:
Recognize, you do not need to hassle with the PESKY LOADING GATE SPRING, pull the trigger pin, trigger OR transfer bar JUST to remove the hammer and pawl. Once you remove the grip frame, the hammer pin is the only other part you need to remove. Then just pull the hammer back and all the way down, then depress the hammer plunger in the base of the hammer with a small tipped screwdriver to clear the trigger extension where the transfer bar connects to it. Let the hammer & pawl fall out. Install in reverse! Piece o' cake.

NOTE: While you have the grip frame off, it's always good to examine the upper end of all the grip frame blind screw holes for thread shavings that weren't cleaned out from the factory and get crammed in there by the screws.

Also check the two trigger guard screw holes where they are exposed by the milling cut if your grip frame has the two projections that go into the main frame. Almost always there will be a huge flat 'roll-over' burr in each hole from the milling cuts that expose the holes. If they are present they generally cause the 1st 1/8" of removing those two screws to take extra effort to unscrew. You'll need to break off the burrs and pick them out with a dental pick or equivalent tool.
The newer guns no longer have these projections and milling cuts, but both early and late frames can have rollover burrs in those two screw holes from drilling the hammer pin hole.

#2. WHEN CHANGING hammers in New Model Rugers, the first thing to check is the transfer bar clearance with hammer for reliable firing pin function.

TO TEST HAMMER/TRANSFER BAR FOR MIS-FIRES:
With hammer fully cocked, press on the transfer bar to extend the firing pin and observe how far thru the recoil shield it protrudes. Now drop the hammer, keep the trigger pulled back and observe the firing pin again. If it doesn't protrude the same amount, you need to remove just enough metal from the hammer nose so the transfer bar is pushed tight against the firing pin and hammer channel. If you remove too much, the transfer bar will not perform its safety function. If firing pin protrudes the same amount, the problem is too weak of a spring. Also make sure hammer has no friction or contact with grip frame ears around its base to slow its fall; another potential issue when making hammer changes.

IF YOU MODIFY HAMMER NOSE:
At the range, double check the safety function by loading a live round under the hammer, point down range, cock the hammer, hold with thumb, release the trigger to uncock the hammer, take finger off trigger and release your thumb so the hammer falls. The round will not fire if safety transfer bar is functioning correctly.

#3. MODIFYING BISLEY HAMMER/TRIGGER FOR PLOW HANDLE OR BIRDSHEAD GRIP FRAME:
Before you trace your old hammer, make sure it fits flush with the grip frame 'ears'.
Use the hammer pivot pin to hold the original and new hammers together and scribe both sides, then grind, file, sand and re-blue (if blued), the portion you filed away.

I "hog off" most of the metal with an 1/8" x 1" Dremel course stone; hammer in a vise, or use a cutoff wheel mounted in a bench top grinder. Then true up the course grinding by 'draw filing' with a small double cut triangular file and then square up the corner. Finish with 400 grit paper wrapped around a 1/4" x 1/2" alum sanding block with flat surfaces, and re-blue with Brownells OxPho blue. That will match the factory finish which is left a bit course. For a higher polish, follow up with 800 grit and 1000 grit. Polish with a Dremel flannel wheel using white rouge made for polishing stainless steel. Then blue.

I usually take about 1/16" off the back of the hammer shank below the spur because they stick out from the frame recoil shield too far for my taste, but don't go too far or the hammer plunger/spring hole will be exposed. You'll notice the newest production hammers have narrower shanks.

BISLEY TRIGGER INSTALLATION: the slot in the grip frame must be extended 5/16" and the 45 degree angle at the front of the slot replicated to install the Bisley trigger in a plow handle or birdshead GF. The best way to do this is with a cutoff wheel in a Dremel tool. Another option is to shorten the front end of the Bisley hammer to fit the existing slot.

DSCN0589.jpg

DSCN0594.jpg

DSCN0598.jpg


http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=1543606#1543606

Stock Bisley hammer in rear, modified Bisley center and standard hammer in front (G2's photo):
P1010010-6.jpg


Mine has part of the flare on the hammer spur removed as well to look more like a Super Blackhawk hammer.
orig.jpg


Some standard NM hammer Notes:

Hammer Height Dimensions:
Montado, N Vaq, mid frame Flat Top Blackhawk, SBH 2.231"- 2.238"
Bisley Mid & Large Frame 2.245"
Original large frame Vaq 2.254"-2.255
Large frame Blackhawk and mid frame Flat Top BH 2.315"

Hammer Base sizes: Also, Ruger has only enlarged the base of the hammer to match the ears, on the new style hammers such as the New Vaq standard 'long horn' and Montado hammers, and the NM Flat Top Blackhawk hammers. All other existing hammers do not match.

The large base hammer followed Ruger's decision to simplify production about 1997 in the serial range 56-XXXXX (Vaqueros). Ruger raised the cylinder frame mating surfaces of the non-Bisley SAs (Blackhawks and Single Sixes) on both sides of the hammer to match the Bisley model frames so they could be assembled to any style grip frame.

Therefore the 'ears' on the standard grip frame had to be raised and enlarged as well. But it took Ruger awhile to use up existing small base hammer inventory before the enlarged base hammers, that matched/fit flush with the taller grip frame ears, were put into production. So for a few years guns were shipped with some ugly hammer/ear fits.

The thinner shank came along much later coinciding approximately with the 1st anniversary new mid-size and later large frame flat tops in 2005 and in my opinion are much better looking. I know of no other reason for it other than improved looks and/or small weight reduction.

Hope this helps,
 

roylt

Hunter
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
3,109
So I think I was too ambitious. I order a few parts the other day and now feel I forgot a few pins etc.

Would one of you guys make me a grip frame and hammer swap grocery list.

I have the grip frame and hammer but what pins / screws / etc do you think I need? I want to pull off the original parts and just save to put back if needed in the future so I don't want to tap out pins etc to recycle.

Thanks,
 

Varminterror

Blackhawk
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
513
Since you're NOT converting a bisley, then all you should need to make the transplant are the 3 pins associated with the grip frame (list below = links to Midway to order them):

Trigger Spring Pivot Pin KE02800
Trigger Spring Retaining Pin KXR06300
Grip Locator Dowel KXR01400

**Note: The KE02800 part is a universal pin for a LOT of models. It's also the trigger pivot pin for the 10/22 as well as for the SP101, GP100, and SRH. If you search "KE02800" at Midway, you'll find two listings. It's the same pin, and the same pin you need for the Ruger Single Action models. The link I listed above takes you straight to the SP101/GP100/SRH listing - IT IS THE RIGHT PIN YOU NEED, would not a rose by any other name smell as sweet?

THESE 3 PINS MAY COME WITH THE GRIP FRAME. Midway does not list these pins as included, and the picture does not show them, but the last 4 grip frames I have ordered from them have had the pins included, with the dowel and trigger retaining pin already installed. The trigger spring pivot pin is loose, so it'd fall out anyway.

Of course, you'll also need a new set of grips, since your Blackhawk either came with XR3 or XR3-RED grips that won't fit the larger Hunter frame.

To swap the hammer, all you need is the hammer. Since you're putting a Bisley Hammer into the Hunter frame, you'll have to modify the hammer as depicted in Hondo's post. I didn't see if you're swapping to a Bisley trigger or not, but if so, then you'll have to alter it too, or the grip frame, but again, all you'll need is the trigger itself.
 

roylt

Hunter
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
3,109
Perfect. That is what I thought but wanted an informed answer. Man if the pins come with the frame I'll be set!! Super excited to get the mail today. Tracking info shows it was put in my box yesterday!! Now I just need a cheap stainless Blackhawk to show up HAHA.

Thanks again,
 

roylt

Hunter
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
3,109
So I get the mail and the parts are just in a bag type envelope? I figure, no big deal. they wrapped the parts and put in the bag. NOPE. The frame damaged the grips I ordered. AND the frame is labeled as a hunter but is a regular blackhawk. AND the bisley hammer is label correctly but is actually a hunter hammer. So my first order with Midway was a bunch of crap!!!

So po'd right now. I was excited to tinker over the weekend.

Is midway this bad normally? Others see this?
 

Hondo44

Hawkeye
Joined
Apr 3, 2009
Messages
8,051
Location
People's Republik of California
No, not typical for Midway in my experience. Especially three mistakes in one order! When you call them to get corrected, if they want the parts shipped back, remind them to credit you for the return postage! And maybe they'll throw in the pins for good measure.
 

medicdave

Blackhawk
Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Messages
535
Location
Maine
Just an FYI if you call to complain using the correct names for the parts as well as the stock number will take you a lot further. I guarantee the little girl answering phones doesn't know what you mean saying hunter hammer (since there is no such part listed), but super blackhawk hammer part # KMR04001B, and super blackhawk hunter grip frame part #KHR00300 will get you what you need. It's unfortunate, but most customer service reps have no idea what they are talking about. Last time I called ruger for parts it took 3 reps to figure out what a sheriffs length ejector housing was (not in the manuals). Check your part numbers and nomenclature against the factory parts lists in the manuals.

ruger.com/service/productHistory.html#
 

roylt

Hunter
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
3,109
I tried to email them last night and it kept giving me a "sorry item not found" page? I gave up and will have to suffer threw until Monday when they are open again. Stinking irritated!

The fact two brand new sets of grips were destroyed by lack of packaging is what really stinks.
 

roylt

Hunter
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
3,109
Called and the wait was almost 20 minutes to get thru. The girl seemed ok about the whole deal but the best she would offer for the trouble was free freight. IF I was a pro smith and had scheduled work over the weekend I would have been out a bunch of cash and had one PO'ed customer. Since it was really just for me I'm the only person PO'ed.

She also tried to tell me I would have to pay shipping on the new order I have to place to backorder the grip frame. I pushed back on that and she said she would handle tomorrow when she calls me back. She was going to check stock on the bisley hammers.

I still feel a little screwed by the whole thing. Any pointers or should I just drop it and be happy about the 7 bucks she gave on a 250 dollar order.
 

Varminterror

Blackhawk
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
513
DON'T YOU DARE SEND BACK THAT SUPER BLACKHAWK HAMMER!!!!! SEND IT TO ME!!!!!!!! (about 10% kidding, but not really)...

I might just order another Bisley hammer myself to see if they have a bunch of cross labeled SBH hammers in stock labeled as Bisley's!!! (See below) The SBH hammers are about as rare as hen's teeth these days. Ever since SASS approved the modification to use SBH hammers in Vaqueros, nobody seems to be able to keep up on inventory!

As far as getting mad about it vs. getting over it... I suppose it won't make you feel better, but Midway is kinda like Walmart in our world. A few people 'boycott' them, but by and large, they aren't missed, and if you keep doing this modification deal, you'll be back to them sooner or later.

AND in Midway's defense, I guess I'd offer this anecdote. Last year I ordered a couple bisley triggers. They showed up standards - BUT LABELED AS BISLEYS. I called Midway, returned at no cost to me, and exchanged for another set of "bisley triggers". The new ones came - again, NOT bisley's, but standards. So I called Midway. They had dozens of triggers that had been incorrectly labeled BY RUGER from the factory. I got a couple Bearcat ejector rods when I tried to order stainless ejectors for an SBH too last winter.

So it might not have been their fault that the grip frame and hammer was wrong on your order - they were most likely mislabeled by Ruger at the factory. But unfortunately, Midway ships too much that their pullers and packers would not know one part from another, only what it says when they scan the barcode. If Hogue dropped 1911 grips in a box labeled "GP100," someone wanting GP100 grips would end up with a set of shingles... Ruger screwed up your labels, so Midway sent you the wrong thing, unwittingly.

However, I have never Midway package grips loose in the "mailing bags" before. Usually they're in padded envelopes inside the bag. Not that it protects them a lot better, if a handler throws the bag around, a heavy grip frame will always do damage to 'purty grips,' even through the padded envelopes.
 
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