Buffalo Bore WT_...that can't be good.

[Verndog]

I was looking to try some different 9mm ammo out and ran across this warning on +P+ ammo. I'm not a loader or ballistics expert, but this really seems wrong...opinions on safety or use? Is this because there are no SAAMI standards for +P+ they can still sell this way, or is there no difference in the brass other then stamping ID??

And just to keep this thread rolling, I plan to use this on any bears I come across. :twisted:

IMPORTANT INFORMATION ABOUT THE HEAD STAMP ON THIS BRASS!!!
Due to limited supplies of 9mm +P+ brass in the industry, Buffalo Bore has been forced to use 9mm +P brass when loading their 9mm +P+ ammunition. Ammunition with be head-stamped +P or +P+ but is in fact +P+ loads.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/64...r-p-115-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-20[/i]

 

[revhigh]

I truly don't get the need to overdrive a caliber and make it so violent to shoot that it can't be controlled. If it were me ... I'd just get a bigger caliber ....

Not saying you VD .... just commenting in general.

REV

 

[Verndog]

I truly don't get the need to overdrive a caliber and make it so violent to shoot that it can't be controlled. If it were me ... I'd just get a bigger caliber ....
Not saying you VD .... just commenting in general.
REV

Well for me it's a matter of carrying 1 weapon, easy to conceal on a summer day, that has capability to meet changing conditions. With the motorhome we are in state parks often, and on short mountain bike trails that you want to go light. That means the SR9c will be with me...I was thinking 3-5 regular 9mm HP rounds backed by these just in case the unlikely occurs. We all know I'll 99.5% likely never use them. :wink: Also, I just want to see because I can...I'll shoot 20 and decide.

But the real answer to your question is probably the biggest seller of PD guns...fear.

But...back to question, is there a difference in brass or just the marking...anyone know?? Also I would wonder on the liability if someone blew up their weak 9mm with +P+ marked +P and say they got them mixed up or something lame?

 

[Sonnytoo]

But...back to question, is there a difference in brass or just the marking...anyone know??

Hi Vern,
I've NEVER reloaded 9mm, but I've reloaded thousands of .45 ACP, .45Colt, .44 Special, .44 Mag and I think the results are similar.

Federal has "often" been suggested, by the "big boys" in gun-lore, as the favored brass for reloading, as it is consistently the heaviest. I believe that means a thicker base portion of the case, which is a critical area.

Starline has a lot of nice reports about it, and I've used it primarily ever since the company was formed...many yrs ago.

W-W and Winchester are okay, but the bottom of the list.

All of these manufacturers produce good brass, which is CONSISTENT in the weight of each case.

The weights I have recorded below are for .45Colt, but I think you'd find similar results, but weighing less of course, in 9mm brass. If you weigh ten brass, the total variation from case to case will be no more than one grain.
F.C. (Federal) 130.0 grains
Starline 115.1 grains
Winchester 108 grains
W-W 117.8 grains

I don't use Remington.

So, yes, I use Starline primarily and I purchase it new...unprimed. I'm not sure that Federal can be purchased unprimed, but Federal is equally good, or better. I've also used Hornady brass for .44 Special and the cases are excellent and very consistent in weight. However, they did seem more expensive. At the time, I just needed new cases and bought what I could find.
In terms of accuracy, I have never noticed a difference and I've done lots of accuracy-testing over the last 50 yrs.

I've read a fair number of pundits who have stated that you can mix cases with no change in velocity or accuracy. I think this is true.

If I'm loading hot, I'll use Federal or Starline.

Best regards,
Sonny

 

[wolfee]

If your quote is accurate, I would consider this good reason not to buy any Buffalo Bore ammo. No manufacturer should intentionally load hotter than the headstamp load. No matter how many warnings they post or print elsewhere. Again, IF your quote is accurate, they claim to have been FORCED to do this. Nope. They CHOSE to do this instead of discontinuing production until the proper headstamped cases were available. Instead they chose to disregard safety instead of temporarily losing a few 9mm sales.

 

[Hazama Yakiba]

BUFFALO BORE scares the living heck outta me, especially after I spoke with their top guy, who reminded me of my old brain-damaged buddy in the late 60's ... always ready to shoot anything that moved or breathed and cared less about safety.

+1 to wolfee & revhigh for their on point opinions... and verndog for being so observant...they've pegged Buffalo Bore to the wall !

Haz

 

[buscadero]

And just to keep this thread rolling, I plan to use this on any bears I come across.quote]

Out of curiosity, what kind of bears are you talking about?
Jim

 

[no-logic]

And just to keep this thread rolling, I plan to use this on any bears I come across.quote]

Out of curiosity, what kind of bears are you talking about?
Jim

That was my question. With all due respect Verndog, I wouldn't depend on a 9mm of any kind to stop a bear of any kind.

 

[revhigh]

With all due respect Verndog, I wouldn't depend on a 9mm of any kind to stop a bear of any kind.

Agreed ... if you HONESTLY expect to encounter a bear or a cougar, the MINIMUM you should be carrying is 10MM, which can easily be had in a Glock compact, or something like (gag) a Kimber 1911 compact. If you REALLY want the right tool for the job, and you REALLY want it to protect yourself from serious critters ... then forget about brand name loyalty and buy the right tool.

If you shoot a bear with a 9 ... you're gonna die. You'd be better off with pepper spray ... and I'm serious.

If animal defense is REALLY the reason you bought the SR9C ... unfortunately .... you bought the wrong gun ... you're gonna either need a DIFFERENT gun .... or ANOTHER gun. A 9 is fine for humans, but woefully inadequate for virtually ANY animal, except maybe a dog ... and there's no amount of +P-ing that will change that.

REV

 

[no-logic]

You got it rev. I think, Verndog, you were looking for a decent all-around defense weapon and you made a good choice. But big critters is a whole different ball game. The wife and I are going to Yellowstone next year in our travel trailer and nothing I have in handguns is coming along for that purpose. The one I'm bringing in case of a rare encounter with a big mean critter is my 870 loaded to the hilt with 3" slugs. But that will be left in the trailer. Pepper spray is what I will be packing on excursions. I'm not sure if park officials would take kindly to my walking around with my 870 slung over my shoulder.

 

[Verndog]

That was my question. With all due respect Verndog, I wouldn't depend on a 9mm of any kind to stop a bear of any kind.

No worries...I threw that in for grins. The +P+ is for assurance and I'm curious what it shoots like. I'll shoot a few and leave some at the bottom of the camping mag just in case. Bear sightings are pretty rare where I go, and I also have the .357 and peperspray in the motorhome. :wink:

If animal defense is REALLY the reason you bought the SR9C ... unfortunately .... you bought the wrong gun ...

I doubt people buy a swiss army knife to saw their arms off, but people have had to do it "in a pinch". 8)

 

[revhigh]

I doubt people buy a swiss army knife to saw their arms off, but people have had to do it "in a pinch". 8)

LOL !! I don't doubt it !!

It depends on how much you really think you'll encounter a big animal. I doubt people 'sawing off their arms' with a swiss army knife went out thinking that they'd have to do that.

However ... the chances of encountering a large animal in areas where they are prevalent is far more likely. Honestly ... shooting a bear or cougar of any kind with ANY 9 is a really bad idea.

REV

 

[NixieTube]

9mm is already pretty high pressure at 35k psi baseline for a handgun round and I consider +P+ to be a total "caveat emptor" roulette game. The pressure ratings are there for a reason and sure, the margin of safety is probably outside the maximum operating pressure of even a +P+ load but by how much? And...

...why chance it? It's going to whang away on the gun, too.

I'll bet that someone will put more wear on a gun firing 1 round of +P+ AnyThingBore Ammo than they would firing 10 rounds of +P ammo., and 30 or 40 rounds of standard pressure ammo. the gun was designed around. Everything is going to be pushed and pulled and slammed around harder, not just the bullet. The chamber will probably take it, the cases will probably be OK, the gun will probably continue to function after a fashion, but why shorten the life of the firearm for those few extra foot-pounds of energy?

In other words, I have the feeling that +P+ ammunition exists to the largest extent to wear out people's guns prematurely Fire two rounds of Plain Old +P instead, or carry an intrinsically more powerful gun. If you're a member of the Special Forces and you're loading up for a mission involving a high value target, that's one thing...but I have to wonder whether even those guys regularly overpressure their guns.

It would really be interesting to see someone in the gun-writing industry do a wear comparison test, really scientifically, with almost any popular 9mm handgun shooting standard, +P and +P+ loads. What they could do to avoid getting any particular manufacturer's cartridges involved is to carefully load the rounds themselves. Or they might not care about that and just go for it with a couple of different manufacturer's cartridges. That would be a fun-to-read article that I'm sure will keep the debate warm for decades. :shock:

 

[Verndog]

...the gun will probably continue to function after a fashion, but why shorten the life of the firearm for those few extra foot-pounds of energy?

Few extra ft / lbs?? Try 100+ extra ft / lbs. Puts a 9mm near .357 magnum ballistics, and that would be why.

 

[buscadero]

Few extra ft / lbs?? Try 100+ extra ft / lbs. Puts a 9mm near .357 magnum ballistics, and that would be why.

You can't get 357 Mag performance out on a 9mm, reliably or safely. If you need a gun to protect yourself from animals, the old rule of thumb is; Over 40 Caliber, Over 200 Grains, Over 1000 Feet Per Second. If you have to shoot a wild animal it's because it has already decided what it wants to do to you.
JMHO
Jim

 

[Verndog]

...If you need a gun to protect yourself from animals, the old rule of thumb is...

Yes, I realize all that. I'm talking about having a few rounds at the bottom of a mag for a situation that it totally rare and shouldn't occur as a precaution, not because I believe I may need it.

My question was the safety of the brass being used as stated in first post, is there a difference in +P to +P+ brass besides the marking?...do you know that answer??

 

[revhigh]

...If you need a gun to protect yourself from animals, the old rule of thumb is...

Yes, I realize all that. I'm talking about having a few rounds at the bottom of a mag for a situation that it totally rare and shouldn't occur as a precaution, not because I believe I may need it.

The only issue I see with that is GETTING to those rounds safely when you need them and knowing when they're coming up in a pressure packed situation. Then there's the issue of a TOTALLY different recoil pulse affecting your aim and possibly confusing you.

I've never been a fan of mixing types of ammo in the same mag unless it's for testing or troubleshooting.

Having said that ... it's YOUR gun, YOUR life ... go for it.

I'd get a different gun for the purpose described ....

REV

 

[Verndog]

...Then there's the issue of a TOTALLY different recoil pulse affecting your aim and possibly confusing you.

I'm not thrilled about shooting much of the high pressure +P+ to be honest. I'll shoot just enough to establish reliable feed, as the gun has no ammo issues for any other brand round...so that's good. I likely will mix 5 and 5 (or so) with regular carry ammo and test difference, as I understand recoil is "slighly higher", not "significantly higher". The SR9c uses a heavy recoil spring and not much is different on the 40c, so I think it will handle it well. I'll know more Saturday. As for another gun...I have that too, but often it's far easier to change gears then to change cars. :wink:

 

[buscadero]

[/quote]
I've never been a fan of mixing types of ammo in the same mag unless it's for testing or troubleshooting.

Having said that ... it's YOUR gun, YOUR life ... go for it.

I'd get a different gun for the purpose described ....

REV[/quote]

What he said!
Jim

 

[Boge]

I have fired thousands & thousands of +p+ 9mm HP's. They won't blow up your gun. Some say they increase wear on a gun. I've never seen it, but then again I chage springs regularly. Your Ruger will take it in spades.

9mm +p+ is extremely accurate ammo. Yes, it has more recoil & louder report and to be frank not everyone can shoot well with rounds like this. Try some before you go hog wild and order a case.