Best Self Defense Load for a Snubnose?

What is your preferred 38 Special short barrel load for self defense - Speer's short barrel 135-gr. Gold Dot, the FBI / Chicago load of 158-gr. LSWCHP, or other.

On the fence! I voted "Other" because I've always been a dyed-in-the-wool FBI load guy, but in all honesty I've never shot the Speers. I hear both are good. I want to do a side by side to see how they feel before I decide for sure.

I voted "Speer", but in fairness, the load I developed (for wife's M38), using the Hornady 140g XTP-HP, is "best".



(Also note how close in bullet weight the Speer load and mine are; hmmmm.....ay?)

Hornady XTP hollowpoint bullets are extremely tough and sure penetrate a lot without much expansion. This is why they were left off - mostly because several other loads offered better all-around performance.

The short barrel Gold Dot was included due to Speer's use of faster burning low flash propellants and excellent expansion properties of their 135-gr. bullet with about 11"+/- of penetration through gel. 4-layer denim tests showed an 1" of penetration and similar expansion.

The FBI load in 158-gr. typically penetrates about 1" more than the above 135-gr. Gold Dot, recoils a little more, and the soft lead in the semi-wadcutter HP still expands almost as much as the Gold Dot. This load generally penetrates and expands about the same in gel and 4-layer denim.

My recommendation is for the Speer short barrel load in 2" barrels and the FBI load for 4" + barrels.

I use the LSWCHP load in my snubbie, as I like heavier bullets.

Honestly, I think a lot of the "science of expansion" is an interesting mental exercise, but in real world application is nowhere near as exact as the manufacturers would have you believe. Expansion in gel or whatever is not the same thing as what happens when a projectile encounters bone, clothing, or whatever, the shot isn't dead-on but at an angle, or any of a number of factors that can limit performance.

-- Sam

For me, its my own reloads: 158 grain lead flat point with 5.6 grains Accurate #5. It gets 860 fps out of my S&W 10-5, 780 out of my Charter Police Undercover. I'm looking forward to trying it in the GP-100 as soon as I get it out of layaway. This load duplicates the performance of the old +P lead bullet loads from Remington and Federal but the powder charge is in the middle of the standard pressure range.

I like your thinking about the heavier bullets, which provide the extra penetration needed to get through extremities, dense clothing, or bones before reaching the vitals. Almost all controlled and informal testing through various media shows a pattern of heavier bullets outperforming their lightweight counterparts across all caliber lines. (While middleweight bonded bullets are coming around nicely, heavyweight bonded projectiles still [usually] outperform them.)

The FBI uses common sense when it says that 62% of the time in OIC's, a bullet must pass through an arm / leg, or penetrate odd angles (traveling longer distances) before reaching the vitals. This is why their minimum penetration standard of 12" - 16" is in effect. They also teach to aim a little higher than many PD's (used to) do because there are more significant vital areas between the armpits and above than below that area. It's no secret when PD's state that more than 1/2 of OIC's are at "odd angles" where the bullet travels a longer distance than most civilian shooting enthusiasts imagine.

When someone's life is on the line, immediately stopping the threat is paramount! BG's usually expire more quickly with higher center-mass hits than the older thinking of around the bottom of the ribs / sternum (like the old-style targets encouraged you to aim for). Notice that in the past decade, range targets have raised their center ring about 3" higher than it used to be.

A couple of well-placed bullets dead-center (or a tad to the right where the heart is) between the armpits can be your best friend when your life is on the line. Self defense priorities should include:

1. Shot Placement: Center Mass Between the Armpits
2. Bullet Construction / Heavy for Caliber Weight
3. Choice of Caliber

Although the Speer gets a lot of press, I haven't bought any of it yet. Im still using what I have on hand, the Rem +P 125 gr Golden Saber in the 2" and 3" barrel guns and the Win +P 158 gr LSWCHP in the 4".
BT

I have tried the 135 grain Gold Dot, and while its an OK load, it was not consistent in either of the snubbies I tried it in (a S&W Airweight .38 Special and a SP101 2 1/4" .357), or in my 4" 681. The standard deviation in all three guns was around 50, as opposed to about 20 for the 158 grain LSWCHP (+P) I tried.

The 158 grain load offers a heavier bullet (which I prefer for .38 Special), shoots right at POA in my fixed sight guns, averaged only about 40 fps slower in the snubbies, had a higher muzzle energy in the snubbies, higher momentum across the board, and higher sectional density. The Gold Dot might be more likely to expand, but really that is the least of my concerns.

I'm going to stick with the 158 grain SWCHP(+P) for my Airweights and I expect I will be using the Buffalo Bore (+P) offering in my newly acquired Ruger SPNY when I make it to the range to qualify.

I would carry my own handloads using a 170 or 200 grain SWC or SWCHP if I could, but my department allows factory ammunition only.

I voted "other".
Seems that despite all the hype about this or that wonder bullet, the more things change, the more they stay the same.....meaning that a heavish bullet has worked so well for so long that it's kinda hard for me to argue with.
So yeah, count me in with the other 158 SWC guys. I like mine running at 850 or so, which perty-much duplicates the old 38Spl service load...but with a better bullet.....and shoots to POA in my Model 10 S&W. Works real well out of my wife's old Model 36 too. Not a lot of kick, minimumal blast, easy to control, a good soild thump on the recieving end, penitrates well, and if ya stay away from the hard-cast versions, you'll even see a fair amount of expansion from time to time.
All that and it's cheap to shoot, which means one can practice with their fighting load. That aint a small thing.

DGW

I have found that the relatively soft, Cowboy type LFP's actually have decent expansion while still penetrating quite well. The flat nose opens up pretty good without turning into a sunflower or getting plugged up with clothing fibers like hollow points often do. Best of all they're dirt cheap and easy on your rifling. Now, this goes for the cowboy bullets, not loaded ammo. Cowboy ammo is loaded really light so that competive shooters can get alot of rounds into the target quickly.

DGW, I shoot a load similar to yours out of my S&W 10-5. You know what they say about great minds...

FergusonTO35 said:

I have found that the relatively soft, Cowboy type LFP's actually have decent expansion while still penetrating quite well. The flat nose opens up pretty good without turning into a sunflower or getting plugged up with clothing fibers like hollow points often do. Best of all they're dirt cheap and easy on your rifling. Now, this goes for the cowboy bullets, not loaded ammo. Cowboy ammo is loaded really light so that competive shooters can get alot of rounds into the target quickly.

DGW, I shoot a load similar to yours out of my S&W 10-5. You know what they say about great minds...

Click to expand...

Yeah, a LFP with a fat nose is my second choice for a revolver.
FWIW, I used my left-over hard-cast .45 "cowboy" 225 + 250 LFP's in my old 1911. Both weights feed perfect out of my generic magazines, work good and hit harder than a conventional 230-FMJ. Leaves a much cleaner hole in a practice target too.

Pardon the hijack.

DGW

My daily carry is an S&W 642 in a Mika pocket holster. I consider a snub nose .38 Special to be the absolute minimum. Much better would be the .44 Special with the Skeeter load or the .45 ACP (MiHec's 200 gr H.P. comes to mind). I have platforms for all of them.

However, let's be realistic. I am a civilian and, so far, have not been willing to put up with the bulk and weight of a "Real" gun. I will (and do) carry the 642 with the proven FBI +P load.

I consider it a decent compromise for MY particular needs (not optimum, but workable).

There is MUCH more to concealed carry than the load. So, for me this is the compromise I have chosen.


YMMV
Dale53

Your poll is a good one and one that has been debated in many forums and weapons training circles.
I too voted other, although the 135 Speer Gold Dot would be a good choice. Many acceptable choices have been already been mentioned in this thread. The best combination is factory ammunition designed for defense and good shot placement. Handloaded ammo can perform very well but generally is another area that requires legal defense, should you end up in court.

I specifically chose that 140g XTP-HP for its potential deep penetration and controlled expansion.
It gets launched from a light gun in a lady's hand.

"First it must go bang"
"It must do so with controllable accuracy"
"Other stuff..."

As long as you are not shooting through sheet steel or auto glass, the 158gr LSWC-HP rounds will do ok.

Not all 158gr LSWC-HP rounds are the same, either. Were I forced to go back to using this type of round, I would choose, Remington, Federal, then Winchester, in that order.

It appears that the non +P Buffalo Bore ammo (Part 20C) would be a good choice, too. Though at the 900fps +/- this load gets out of a 2"snub, I would refrain from using this load in my Model 10's, or 15's because it looks as if the hollow point begins to fragment off of the core. The additional velocity a 4" barrel would generate would not be helpful.

The 135gr Gold Dot needs an impact velocity above 800 fps to expand reliably.

You forgot the 110gr +P DPX load from Cor-Bon. It works well, too.

PMC Ultramag 66 grain. Without peer in a 2" barrel. LEOs cannot carry them. 'nuff said.

The tubular bullets cut like the proverbial cookie cutter, negating the benefit of a nearby trauma surgeon. STrictly a defensive load, they lose velocity and energy very quickly put past 30-40 yards or so.

In a 442 they make for the lightest possible carry system.

I got this one from "Guns and Ammo" years ago. I fooled around with it with outstanding results.

Standard load for .38 pushing a 140HBWC but load the lead backwards. Massive soft hollowpoint. Fairly accurate to 15 feet, but massive expansion. ( believe the article claimed expansion to .64 cal)

My other home defense hand load is a .357 load with 2 (two) OOO buck balls. My experience is a 10 inch spread at 20 feet.

Not that I use these loads all the time, I prefer a 12ga or .45.

As has been said about angles and bones I will take the lwchp.
I think it would be rare for a target to stand aquare off with you with hands at sides as the bullets are tested. Most likley they will be one foot forward or throw there hands in front of themselves or aiming at you ect. This puts a longer bullet path and more bones in the way.
Secondly especialy this time of year thugs are wearing heavy canvas or leather jackets.
The lighter HP's I have tested did well in clothed medium but pre expanded and under penetrated (for my likeing) when passing through saddle leather first. The 158s seemed to not be effected near as much.
Expansion to me is gravy after everything else.

I choose LSWHP it has a proven track record in "real world" useage. That means alot more than tests to me. Plus many fixed sighted snubs shoot POA/POI with 158gr. First choice would be Buffalo bore for their use of flash suppressed powder. Second is Remington.
However if my gun shot poorly with LSWCHP I would use Speer's 135gr short barrel load. 125gr Speer Gold Dots also have a good track record in .357mag (for my GP100). They were always my duty round of choice for any of my autos.