Questions about H110 and forcing cone erosion-UPDATE

J Miller · Jul 26, 2010

Until recently I've never used H110. Some forum friends gave me some 300gr jacketed and cast bullets and a pound of H110 to try. So I've loaded up some.

I've shot 17 rounds of 300gr bullets loaded with this powder and already I'm seeing erosion on the edges of the forcing cone. Very tiny little burn cuts radiation from the inside edge of the cone to the outside edge of the barrel.

I recut that forcing cone a couple years ago have been keeping my eyes on it since. So I'm positive there were no signs of this erosion prior to these rounds.

My revolver experiments with H110 are over. I will not tolerate eroded forcing cones. Been there and done that with other ball powders. (Win 630 was nothing more than a cutting torch in powder form. I burned out two forcing cones with that garbage before realizing what was causing it.)
The problem is now that it's been started it will escalate rapidly.

I just wanted to ask if I was alone on this of if others have had it happen to their Rugers too?

Joe

Sheriff · Jul 26, 2010

I've shot 3-400 rds with 24-25grs and 255 gr cast and jacketed thru two different .45colt Bisleys and haven't noticed any erosion. One is a stainless and one is blued. But, I haven't examined them under a micro scope, just eye-balled them while cleaning. Just my .02

Bucks Owin · Jul 26, 2010

17 rounds? I've put half a dozen pounds of H110's twin, W296, through my .45 BH (in Linebaugh quantities too, eg: at or above the "max" load in some published manuals) and have noticed no FC issues. Everybody says H110 and W296 are identical but Linebaugh makes a distinction between the two saying he feels H110 is "kinder to lead bullets" than W296, but says he's had some "slow" cans of H110 and needed to bump the charge a little to restore intended velocities. That being the case, I guess W296 "should" be considered harsher on the FC too but I can't see it...I figure if I'm lucky enough to put enough rounds down the tube to burn the forcing cone, I'll be happy to have it fixed! So far, everything still looks fine. I will say that I don't "rapid fire" my sixguns much, most of my shooting is five rds at a time slowly and deliberately off the bench. When I DO shoot a couple cyls as fast as I can load them, the barrel heats up some...Maybe there's something there to think about....Two centavos worth

Bucks Owin · Jul 26, 2010

BTW, while out having a coffe and a smoke, another thought occured to me...90% of my projectiles are CAST bullets, not jacketed. I shoot jacketed bullets rarely, mainly just to play with expansion tests etc. The accuracy of a .4515" Sierra or .452" Hornady in my .456" throats is a little disappointing and I would expect there's some "blowby" in the throats too. There is certainly plenty of "gapflash" with such loads...I much prefer the economy and accuracy of a .454" cast bullet...

Boxhead · Jul 26, 2010

I do not use 110/296 for a couple of reasons. I rarely load to full tilt which is where they shine and I have had some "touchy" moments working up loads with them and it does seem that they burn "hot". I much prefer and use H/IMR 4227 while 2400 will do if I am short 4227. Just bought another 8# of it so I am good for some time.

Hammerdown77 · Jul 26, 2010

Do you have pictures of the forcing cone, Joe? I'd be interested to see what you're talking about.

I've shot hundreds of 300 grain lead slugs over H-110 now with no noticeable erosion. No jacketed bullets, though.

flatgate · Jul 26, 2010

Linebaugh's comments about H110/W296 are ancient. Nowdays, to the best of my knowledge, H110/W296 are made with the the exact same "components" at the same plant.

Joe,

ALL I SHOOT is, for the most part, WW-296. .32 mag., .41 mag. (when I have one), .44 mag. 45 Colt (Ruger only), and .454 Casull. Nothing bad has happened to my barrels EXCEPT with my original Freedom Arms .454 and Factory loads. A wee bit of erosion was noticeable, but, the gun continued to shoot quite well. (I rebarreled it a few months ago due to some circumstances beyond my control

).

Jacketed bullets do not exist in my shooting. Gas checked "high quality" cast projectiles, heavy for calibre, abound.

It works for me.

flatgate

PS My "other" powder is SR-4759, one "notch" off of the ball powders I use on the "burn rate" charts. I use it for "plinker" loads. Lightly compressed is the way to go. YMMV.

WYO1 · Jul 27, 2010

I used to shoot IHMSA and ran thousands of jacketed thru a 10" super with 110 being the powder of choice. No issues.

J Miller · Jul 27, 2010

Hammerdown77":3s211j92 said:
Do you have pictures of the forcing cone, Joe? I'd be interested to see what you're talking about.

I've shot hundreds of 300 grain lead slugs over H-110 now with no noticeable erosion. No jacketed bullets, though.

Hammerdown77,
No I don't. It would take a good camera with a dedicated macro lens at this point and I don't have one. When I get it cleaned really good I'll see if I can get some sort of pic with the camera I've got.

flatgate, WY01, others,
Your "no problem" experiences are what prompted my post here. I've had lots of folks tell me to try 296/H110 and I finally did. Now I have erosion marks on my gun that were not there before so it just made me very curious.

Joe

DGW1949 · Jul 28, 2010

One of my rules which has served me well seems to apply here. When in doubt, don't.
H110 is a hold over from the US M1 Carbine cartridge and works real well for that. But even giving it that, 2400 will produce the same velocity in that same application and do so with less pressure. In other words, I don't know of a single ball powder application that can't be done just as well with something not as problomatic as ball powders often are.
To answer the specific question, no I haven't had any sort of damage to a Ruger that could be blamed on ball powder. But that's because I don't use the stuff. On the other hand, I don't remember ever hearing of Unique or 2400 being blamed for flame cutting.

See where this is going?
It get's back to my "when in doubt, don't" thing.

Sorry for your miss-fortune Joe.

DGW

buck460XVR · Jul 28, 2010

flatgate":3hcly6md said:
Linebaugh's comments about H110/W296 are ancient. Nowdays, to the best of my knowledge, H110/W296 are made with the the exact same "components" at the same plant.

They are........confirmed by Hodgdon. Same powder, from the same bulk source, packaged under two different brand names.

I use H110/W296 for hunting velocity loads in my .357s, 44s and .460. Several of my manuals recommend the use of H110/W296 with certain bullet weights in all three calibers. Nuttin else I have tried is as accurate in all three. This amounts to thousands of rounds thru the .357s and .44s and hundreds of rounds thru the .460. No signs of premature forging cone erosion. Only forcing cone issues I have had is with Lil' Gun.

dougader · Jul 28, 2010

buck460XVR":2eym4tzn said:
Only forcing cone issues I have had is with Lil' Gun.

This is the problem powder I have heard about, too. IIRC, Freedom Arms even advises their customers not to use Lil' Gun loads in their revolvers.

Bucks Owin · Jul 29, 2010

DGW1949":lr8518mx said:
H110 is a hold over from the US M1 Carbine cartridge and works real well for that. But even giving it that, 2400 will produce the same velocity in that same application and do so with less pressure.
DGW

Your notion doesn't hold much water according to Linebaugh's pressure data:

VELOCITY AND PRESSURE COMPARISONS SHOWING THE SUPERIORITY OF H-110 AND W 296 OVER OTHER COMMONLY USED POWDERS IN THE .45 COLT. 7" TEST BBL.

BULLET POWDER GRAINS VELOCITY CUP
260 GR. LEAD SWC H-110 27 1459 FPS 30,600
260 GR. LEAD SWC H-4227 26 1377 FPS 30,600
260 GR. LEAD SWC # 2400 20.5 1294 FPS 29,800
260 GR. LEAD SWC HS-6 16 1259 FPS 30,800
260 GR. LEAD SWC UNIQUE 12 1199 FPS 30,000
310 GR LEAD SWC H-l10 23 1330 FPS 30,000
310 GR LEAD SWC H-4227 23 1176 FPS 29,400
310 GR LEAD SWC # 2400 19 1172 FPS 29,400
310 GR LEAD SWC HS-6 14 1119 FPS 30,400
310 GR LEAD SWC UNIQUE 11 998 FPS 29,200
[/b]

Dale53 · Jul 30, 2010

I have been using H110 in my .44 Magnum revolvers for years. I have in excess of 10,000 rounds through a Model 29 (8 3/8" barrel) and the same amount through my Ruger Red Hawk (7½" barrel).

I have NO erosion in either forcing cone.

I shoot almost entirely my own cast lead bullets.

H110, Win 296, and WC 820 are ball powders that measure like water (that is to say, with excellence) burn much cleaner than my previously used 2400 and do so with less pressure per velocity ratio (as noted in Bucks Owin's post).

FWIW
Dale53

Bucks Owin · Jul 30, 2010

I would like to add that any Linebaugh load I have tried and chrono'ed has been right on the money velocity-wise, and I've had no sticky WW cases such as he recommends either. I can't say that for "full tilt" loads with H-2400.(The old Hercules)...LilGun gave me erratic results both in .357 and .44 mag, and I gave up on that "wonder powder".....Like flatgate, I am a fan of SR4759 though, FWIW...I'd say those who don't like W296/H110 have not given it much of a trial, they are the velocity kings with uniform ballistics and no pressure surprises....JMO

flatgate · Jul 30, 2010

J Miller":3iyqkota said:
I've shot 17 rounds of 300gr bullets loaded with this powder and already I'm seeing erosion on the edges of the forcing cone. Very tiny little burn cuts radiation from the inside edge of the cone to the outside edge of the barrel.

I recut that forcing cone a couple years ago have been keeping my eyes on it since. So I'm positive there were no signs of this erosion prior to these rounds.

Joe

What model Ruger? What's the bore size, i.e. "standard" or different? What's the forcing cone like? What's your B/C gap? Any cylinder endshake? How's the cylinder's internal dimensions? Cylinder throat diameter? What exact bullets are you using? How much ball powder are you using in your loads?
Mag primers? What kind of "bullet pull" do your loads have? Do you use a "second" step crimping operation? Are the primers seated firmly in the pockets? Are the "flash holes" in the cases in good shape? How's your lockwork? Any undue friction working on the hammer's fall?

All these things and probably a zillion others are part of the "equation".

JMHO,

flatgate

454PB · Jul 31, 2010

I've used H-110 and WW 296 in several calibers for over 37 years with no forcing cone erosion. I HAVE seen the cutting of the top strap, but it seems to stop after a while.

I also use Lil'Gun in .44 magnum and .454 Casull (including a Freedom Arms model 83) with no erosion problems or any of the excessive heating others have written about.

J Miller · Aug 1, 2010

flatgate":38qau0bl said:
J Miller":38qau0bl said:

I've shot 17 rounds of 300gr bullets loaded with this powder and already I'm seeing erosion on the edges of the forcing cone. Very tiny little burn cuts radiation from the inside edge of the cone to the outside edge of the barrel.

I recut that forcing cone a couple years ago have been keeping my eyes on it since. So I'm positive there were no signs of this erosion prior to these rounds.

Joe

Click to expand...

What model Ruger?
Old Model BH, BKH45, 7.5" barrel
What's the bore size, i.e. "standard" or different?
Grove dia. = .452"
What's the forcing cone like?
Recut to 11° about three years ago. Nice and smooth.
What's your B/C gap?
Aprox .005", I can't get a good measurement, face of cylinder is not square. Measurement varies as I rotate the cylinder
Any cylinder endshake?
Aprox .002"
How's the cylinder's internal dimensions?
Early NM rebated chamber cylinder. Chambers are smooth by Ruger standards. Actual measurements, I have no idea. Just typical generous Ruger chambers.
Cylinder throat diameter?
.4525"
What exact bullets are you using?
Lee 300gr FPGC (C452-300-RF), .452" dia, actual weight 310grs. Bullets seated long in the second crimp grove.
How much ball powder are you using in your loads?
21.5grs H110
Mag primers?
Winchester WLP
What kind of "bullet pull" do your loads have?
Heavy. At least as heavy as my dies can make it.
Do you use a "second" step crimping operation?
This batch was crimped in a 4th step with a Lee FCD. Not as heavy a crimp as you show in your pics of the .44 Ammo though.
Are the primers seated firmly in the pockets?
Yes
Are the "flash holes" in the cases in good shape?
Yes, reamed out with a Lyman flash hole tool.
How's your lockwork? Any undue friction working on the hammer's fall?
Smooth as a babies butt. Almost 8,000 rounds through it plus a minor polish job about 10 years ago.

All these things and probably a zillion others are part of the "equation".
Anything else you think of that might answer this question feel free to ask. I have more of these bullet coming. So I can work on things. Plus I have a mold for them. Just not set up to cast at this time.
Joe

JMHO,

flatgate

Peter M. Eick · Aug 1, 2010

As a 357 Maximum shooter I am very aware of flame cutting. I have read a lot on this and one comment that has really struck with me is don't use ball powders. Use stick only.

The logic is that ball powders cross the cylinder gap and act as a red hot sand blasting agent. My sandblaster works at 100 psi. I hate to think what it would do at say 40,000 PSI and if I could get the sand particles up to say 3000 degrees F.

Just something to contemplate and consider.

J Miller · Aug 1, 2010

Peter,

Many years ago I burned the forcing cones out of a Colt Python and a S&W Mdl 28 with Win 630 ball powder. Since then I've avoided using ball powders in my hand loads. But I've read so many good reports about 296/H110 that I had to try it.

Your description of the effects is spot on by the way.

Joe

Questions about H110 and forcing cone erosion-UPDATE

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