Why do 2nd Gen Colt SAA command such a premium?

[God&huntingdogs]

For a post war gun, what's the story with them. I have noticed recently that their prices seam to have increased as well. Thank you and God bless.

 

[BearBio]

Third generations vary greatly in quality. There are too many periods of really good quality with alternating periods of POC production. Also, in general, Colt's are a good investment. Pythons are largely priced out of the market for many non-collectors; so, beginners are turning to SAAs. The first generation are largely priced out of the range of most people and, many are mis-matched" due to failures and arsenal-rebuilds. And, a fair number of early SAAs are black powder only (below about ser. # 192,000)\ or are re-blues or re-nickels.

Remember, there is some mystic about a Colt. Nothing feels quite the same as a SAA.

I also have several early double actions (the Thunderer, Lightning, the 1878 and it's "son" the 1902). Prices are going up fast on them also. A working 1877 is now worth a starting of likely price close to $700, up from about $300-$400 a few years ago. That's for a gun where all the calibers are largely custom jobs. And forget about finding a Rainmaker!

 

[CraigC]

Simply put, the older and more rare a Colt is, the more it is worth, for the most part. blackpowder era 1st generations are the most collectible, followed by smokeless 1st's, then 2nd's and 3rd's. The 2nd generation guns are also generally considered to be of better quality than all but the very latest 3rd's.

 

[DGW1949]

Pre Auto Workers Union.
That, and our ever-deflating dollar.

DGW

 

[Sagebrush Burns]

By the numbers there are less 2nd gens than 1st or 3rd - about 350,000 1st gen, 150,000+ 3rd gen, less than 80,000 2nd gen. That may have some bearing on prices.

 

[Hondo44]

Second gen Colt SAAs are not all the same. They are divided into 3 age groups; early, mid and late. The earliest are the most desirable and are virtually like late 1st gen guns with updated screw threads except the barrel, even using some pre war parts, and command the highest prices, the mid next, etc. And as with any gun, certain configurations like the short barrel 45s, will always command higher market demand and therefore prices.

All 2nd gen guns have 1st gen type separate cyl base pin bushings. Only much more recently c.2000 have 3rd gen guns regained that feature and only more recently have 3rd gens approached the quality of fit and finish of 2nd gens.

Just like after the war when there were no 1st gens being made any more, the prices skyrocketed and they keep going up. When there was a roughly 25 year period after 2nd gen production ceased when no decent Colt SAAs were available, a similar price escalation began with the 2nd gens. And even though current 3rd gens are now decent guns befitting the Colt name, Colt's financial situation is so poor that their production is limited.

 

[God&huntingdogs]

Second gen Colt SAAs are not all the same. They are divided into 3 age groups; early, mid and late. The earliest are the most desirable and are virtually like late 1st gen guns with updated screw threads except the barrel, even using some pre war parts, and command the highest prices, the mid next, etc. And as with any gun, certain configurations like the short barrel 45s, will always command higher market demand and therefore prices.

All 2nd gen guns have 1st gen type separate cyl base pin bushings. Only much more recently c.2000 have 3rd gen guns regained that feature and only more recently have 3rd gens approached the quality of fit and finish of 2nd gens.

Just like after the war when there were no 1st gens being made any more, the prices skyrocketed and they keep going up. When there was a roughly 25 year period after 2nd gen production ceased when no decent Colt SAAs were available, a similar price escalation began with the 2nd gens. And even though current 3rd gens are now decent guns befitting the Colt name, Colt's financial situation is so poor that their production is limited.

Is there a serial# range that specifies the 2nd gen gun using 1st gen parts?

 

[Hondo44]

No. But you can roughly figure the 1st year or two which would be up to #18,500SA. The loading gates are wider at the top, from the side view and can be found all the way up to the early 1960s. Then the new narrow top ones were used and still are. The other parts are really hard to tell.

Then there is another class of post war SAAs called pre war-post war models that were all assembled after the war using only 1st gen pre war surplus parts including the old screw thread sizes. Those are rare and as expensive as real 1st gen guns and have serial numbers at the end of the 35X,XXX 1st gen serial range w/o the SA suffix.

 

[WIL TERRY]

GOOD QUESTION, SIMPLE ANSWER : They do not make 'em anymore.
As soon as there is a pause in Colt SAA production again, and upon resuming they will become actual-in-fact fourth generation guns, the third generation guns will by talked about like the First Coming and the prices will go stupid crazy " Cause they ain't makin' 'em anymore."
And so it goes...

 

[DCRuger]

I have a 3rd gen nickle SAA made the FIRST YEAR of the 3rd gen and its finish and fit are superb.
When folks say third gen SAA Colts quality is below par they are just following along, or own some 2nd gens. I'd GLADLY take any sub-par 3rd gens anyone is giving away!
Wil Terrys comment above is the most likely and truthful.

 

[Hondo44]

DCRuger,

That's the problem when generalizing about anything; good or bad. Here's my personal in-depth evaluation and opinions of 3rd gens:

The SA46XXX to SA05XXX range 1981-86, is about the peak of the worst period. I'll try to put a bracket on it: The very early 3rds with an SA suffix are fine and compare well to late 2nd gens in quality if not features like the trigger guard bevel, cyl base pin bushimg, et.el.

Starting about 1980 # SA3XXXX range thru about 1989 #SA94XXX, inspect very closely for:

Cyl end shake (fore and aft play), flattened hammer spurs, off center firing pins in the hammer, bad backstrap to hammer base flush fitting, crooked front sights, sloppy actions with more than four clicks, crooked rolled stampings on frame and barrel (sometimes patent dates are missing altogether), lousy case coloring, poor grip strap to frame fit, over polished edges or edges so sharp you could cut yourself, etc., etc. The labor strike was in 1986. Now having said all that, I have found an occasional decent gun in that period.

After that period things start to improve with typically only one of those problems per gun but sometimes more, and sometimes none. The lousy backstrap 'ears' to hammer base fitting is still fairly common as are flattened hammer spurs. Once the SA in the serial number splits SXXXXXA in 1993, they continue to get better thru 1999.

At #S26XXXA in 1999 the authentic removable base pin cyl bushing like 1st and 2nd gen guns is re-introduced and cyl end shake is all but eliminated. Case colors really improve as well as fitting. Hammer spurs are correct as well as most backstrap ears to hammer base fit. Now the guns are approaching late 2nd gen quality and do to this day. However the trigger guard/front grip strap still does not have the bevel of the early 3rds with SA suffix or wide loading gates of the early 2nd gens and probably never will again. The 2nds never had the 2 line short barrel address or 1/2" radius flutes of the 1st gen, and even the late 1st gens lost the case colored hammers and all vestiges of the front cyl chamfer. At least three pre c. 1936 features can be special ordered now on 3rd gens; CCH hammer, the 2 line barrel address on short barrels and the cyl chamfer, but it's not accurately done. Of course there's a one year plus wait.

 

[DCRuger]

Hondo,
Well, mine has the SA at the end and date according to Colt records is 1977, so, where on the junk list does that fall!

 

[DCRuger]

Hondo,
Well, My oldest has the SA at the end and date according to Colt records is 1977, nickle, so, where on the junk list does that fall!

The newest is about 15 years old, nickle, with the split SA at front/end. It must REALLY be bad.

Like I said, anyone wanting to give away a SAA Colts from the absolute worst years....I'll give you an address to send it to.

 

[CraigC]

I'll take all the free Colt's I can get too but that doesn't change the fact that they shipped a lot of 3rd generation guns that were far from perfect. In my experience, it's difficult to get collectors of 3rd generation Colt's to recognize the fit/finish issues on their own guns.

 

[DCRuger]

I'll take all the free Colt's I can get too but that doesn't change the fact that they shipped a lot of 3rd generation guns that were far from perfect. In my experience, it's difficult to get collectors of 3rd generation Colt's to recognize the fit/finish issues on their own guns.

That could be because it's mostly hype, generated by those who paid a bundle for gen 2s

 

[CraigC]

Sorry but I'm not simply repeating what I've heard. All it takes is a discerning eye to see the obvious issues with many 3rd generation Colt's. Their reputation is earned, not imagined.

 

[olyinaz]

I'll take all the free Colt's I can get too but that doesn't change the fact that they shipped a lot of 3rd generation guns that were far from perfect. In my experience, it's difficult to get collectors of 3rd generation Colt's to recognize the fit/finish issues on their own guns.

That could be because it's mostly hype, generated by those who paid a bundle for gen 2s

"Mostly" is the key word I think. I like what I'm seeing out of Colt today, and I hope they offer us a few more variations in the near future.

Oly

 

[Hondo44]

Yeah "Mostly" is the word alright, mostly 3rd gens lack true Colt quality; see post 11. And as stated there, the exceptions are the very earliest 3rd gens and the last 12 years or so on which you won't get many arguments. They are vastly improved over the intervening 20 years. That's why generalizations about 3rd gens is so inaccurate.

 

[CraigC]

While I wish Colt would get their act together on their .45Colt throats and revert back to coloring their hammers, the newer guns are very well made. Colt fans can thank USFA for that. Now if we can just get them to produce a 4¾" .44Spl New Frontier.

 

[WIL TERRY]

Colt fans can thank USFA for that. Now if we can just get them to produce a 4¾" .44Spl New Frontier.

I have had one of these on order for only three years now, Craig !! THREE FREAKIN" YEARS now. I think the 38-40 7 1/2" one has been on order two years now.
Good thing I have all the rest to shoot, ol' pard, or I'd be getting damned impatient about the whole situation. Did put a box through the NF 4 3/4" 44-40 yesterday and it sorta makes me wonder why I still want that length NF 44SPL; that NF 44-40 shoots like a dream with bullet weights of 200, 210, 215, 225, and 240gr LFN ! To assuage my ire in waiting my SAA 4 3/4" 44SPL shoots up a storm right on the sights to waaaaaaay out yonder.
The new NF 4 3/4" 45 shoots up a storm too but for some reason beats the livin' shiq outta the middle knuckle on my left middle finger; I mean to tell you it just wails the tar out of it when it gets a good lick at it. AND I am not sure how or why. The 5 1/2" does not, the 7 1/2" does not, the 4 3/4" 44SPL does not, and the 4 3/4" 44-40 with 240gr LFN bullets does not. By now I am pretty sure that new NF 45 is either female, dummorat, or BOTH !

 

[CraigC]

Did you piss somebody off up there in Hartford? I've been wanting a Colt or replica 7½" .38-40 myself, the Buckeye Ruger just doesn't quite scratch that itch. Wished I had ordered one in a USFA Flat-Top target before they went to making Zippers.

Sounds like you need to send that cantankerous .45 NF on its way. I'll PM you an address you can forward it to for proper disposal.

I need to hurry up and get this new gun room finished so I can set up my presses and add a couple more Dillons. Gettin' friggin' withdrawals!

 

[gak]

I've got a rare (to this date yet AFAIK) non convertible .44 Sp "4th" (late 3rd) SAA, only one of two or three such factory-bushing'd 3rd Gen .44s I've seen, bona fide but non catalogued ca 2008....and can attest to the significant improvements over earlier. I think I still like the "steel" gray-blue of the 2nds versus the glossy ultra dark black-bluing of the 3rds--better for my tastes, but this seems more a subjective/preference call than quality issue. In most if not all other regards it seems the equal of a friend's half dozen or so mid to late 2nds. Sure wish it had those bevels though (the more pronounced earlier 1st kind) and some day may have a separate cylinder done such, just because.

For now, with is rarity (for now) I admit it's largely a safe queen -- and that finish again, makes you feel you shouldn't actually shoot the thing! Never felt that way regarding just about any 2nd. I usually don't do safe queens, so not woodsing with it bothers, though I've got several other SAs for that duty. I didnt pay a dime, NIB from dealer (new production at the time) over "normal" catalogued guns, so even using it would likely not detract much if any value, given its spec....but "investment" value might be diminished. To me, these guns are meant to be used!
P

 

[BIgMuddy]

I've got a pair of 7.5" 38-40's, both 3rd gens. One was purchased as soon as they came out in that length and has the button bushing. The other is later with the drilled through bushing. The fit of the hammer and the "ears" are not perfect at all on the older gun but it shoots great to say the least. I had the action done by Bill Ogelsby. The newer gun rivals the quality of any handgun I own. Lock up can only be compared to a FA and no action work was needed.It is every bit the gun, and maybe better, than my USFA 7.5" 38 w.c.f.

As to the OP and to repeat another post....2nds bring more cause they don't make 'em. I have some 2nds and yeah I paid more for them with no regrets.

And BTW I had one of those 80's 3rd gen guns Craig mentioned. I didn't "hear" about it I owned it.

Dan

 

[buckeyeshooter]

Thank you for the education. I have been interested in the Colt Revolver. But have stayed away because there are so many variations and ways to get skinned alive!
I have thought several times about a pair of 4 3/4 revolvers in 44-40, perhaps with 44 special extra cylinders and Nickel finish. Looks like I could order them from the custom shop at this point? And hope I live long enough to get them delivered?

 

[Hondo44]

I don't know if Colt is taking orders at the current time because they are so back ordered. But the good news is, in the "quality production" period of the last decade, I've seen that configuration was made and seen them for sale on Gunbroker and Gunsamerica, so you may find something new or used.

And if you stay above #S26XXXA from 1999 (see last paragraph in my post #11 on page one) you'll have the greatest chance of getting a decent 3rd gen or two.