Which .25?

[96/44]

Lately I have had an itch for a M77. I am thinking of a multi purpose varmint/antelope/deer rifle. I don't really need one, since I have varmint rifles and big game rifles, but what does need really have to do with it? I have been leaning toward a .257 Roberts since that seems to be a classic cartridge that goes well with the Ruger. Then I think maybe I should just get a .25-06 since brass, etc is more available and has somewhat better performance. Of course then there is the .250 savage...
What have your experiences been as far as accuracy with different bullet weights in those calibers in the 77? Or maybe I should just go the boring route and get a .243.

 

[hammie]

Here in Arizona, antelope are usually taken at longer distances, and so the .25-'06 might give you an advantage. If you handload, I have a preference for the "Bob". It is more pleasant to shoot, and you can approach .25-06 performance. As another option, Lipsey's is offering a nice #1A in .250 Savage.

 

[gatling]

I have a 257 Roberts in a Kimber 84 that I haven't fired yet. Got the brass, the dies, and the bullets. Thanks for the nudge. That will be the next project.

There's a NIB 200th year M77 on GB in 257 Roberts right now that I would dearly love to own. Trying to sell a motorcycle; I've that goes, I might just do it.

 

[vaturkey]

.257 Roberts all the way. I've owned a 25.06 and sold it. More muzzleblast then I liked and frankly, I've killed more deer with the Roberts then any other rifle I own. I think it was made for Whitetails and Antelope. Light recoil and hits hard. I also think if you handload there isn't a gnats difference in true performance. PS. I'm having a custom 3 done now. The caliber is .257 Roberts.

 

[mattsbox99]

Out here, shots can be longer. The 25/06 is is my favorite and I've harvested a lot of deer with mine.

Both the 250 Savage and 'Bob' are great cartridges, I have nothing against them and I'd like to own both.

 

[four70nitro]

Either the .25-06 or the .257 Roberts - you can't go wrong with either one. The .25-06 is one of my all time favorites -- low recoil, highly accurate, easy to load for, fun to shoot, but the .257 Roberts is a bit more efficient.

Dave

 

[donw]

i have my "Ole faithful" a 93/95 Mauser that will wear a .257 barrel if i ever get around to rebarrel

 

[Beruisis]

I have owned & hunted, taken game with all the 25s except the Weatherby.
Settled on the 250-300 & never looked back.
B.

 

[picketpin]

I own a LOT of rifles. I own more rifle chambered in the 257 Roberts or the 257 Ackley Improved than anything else except MAYBE 22-250 and 22-250AI.

First CF rifle I ever owned, was a gift from my dad and grandfather for my 12th birthday, over 50 years ago. A custom 98 in 257 Roberts.

I have a #1 on Lay Away at Cabelas in Maine. It's another 257 Roberts "B" Between then and NOW I've probably owned 50+ rifles in 257 Roberts from nearly every maker in the game since about 1935 or so.

They are currently building my once in a life time rifles, killer wood, engraved, inlaid etc. One is a #1 "S" in 257 Roberts the other is a #2 in 257 AI.

I hunt, a lot. I've kept a log book since my first hunt at age 12, 50+ years ago. Of all the deer I've killed in 50+ years, 84% have been killed with either a 257 Roberts or a 257 AI. It's a LOT of deer.

I've killed deer with nearly every modern CF from 17 Remington to 338 Win Mag and most things in between. I always go back to the 257 for deer/antelope.

Ballistically. If I didn't reload and planned on shooting deer, I'd buy a 25-06. Being over bore it will not do anything with light bullets that you can't do with a Bob, with less powder. As long as you are going to use 100-120 grain bullets then the 25-06 gets the nod, for the non reloader.

Recoil is really to high for a serious varmint rifle, ala a couple hundred rounds in a day. On the other hand it's a great coyote rifle, for KILLING coyotes. It's a little rough for hide hunting.

The Bob and certainly the AI will push even 120s to within the velocity range where the difference between the 25-06 and the Roberts is the difference of a fast barrel versus a slow barrel, 100-200 fps. In other words a "fast" slick barreled 257 Roberts may well be faster than a "Slow" 25-06 with the same bullet..

The Roberts or AI are better bore balanced and make better varmint rifles. Recoil is considerly less and use less powder to achieve the same velocities with less powder/recoil with light bullets.

The 250-3000 is a classic. Not quite as fast or flat as either of the other two with heavy bullets. But 2800 fps with a 100 grain bullet has killed a lot of critters. Excellent varmint rifle with 75 grain bullets. I've very seen a inaccurate 250-3000. My son hunts with a 77RL in 250-3000 for nearly everything smaller than elk.

If I had to choose one, it would be real hard to go wrong with a 257 Roberts in your rifle of choice. Almost every modern rifle has been chambered in the 257 Roberts over the last 30 years.

As far as Rugers, #1 "B" and "A". 77s in MKI, MKII and Hawkeye in R, RL, RS and ST.

Cousin Wayne retired this year from the ranch. He wanted a rifle for his "present". He could have chosen nearly anything within reason. His choice? A #1 "B" punched to 257 Ackley Improved. Thus the one in Maine. "I've always wanted one since I shot your's 30 years ago".

Yes, I own a couple of 25-06s and 250-3000s and have killed deer and antelope with both. They both work fine. They just wouldn't be my FIRST choice.

I'm working on another rifle for this fall. You guessed it, a #2 with a factory 26" #1 barrel and #1 wood but with a straight wristed stock, in 257 Ackley Improved. I'm working on the contour/shape of the lever right now.

Ross

 

[rugnelli]

I have a flat bolt M77R .25-06 that shoots very well. It was my Father's originally in the early 70's. He was not the original owner but very close to it. Federal Premium 115 grain Nosler Partition is the load.

I had an ultralight tang safety .257 Roberts that shot extremely well for its light barrel and overall configuration. It also had a Timney trigger. I traded it on a tang safety M77R .257 Roberts that better fit my other M77's. Stupid, stupid, stupid... The one I traded for shot fine for deer but nowhere near what the ultralight did.

I have a .250 Savage M77 made in 1976 that shoots fine for deer but not exceptional.

My brother has a Remington Classic .257 Roberts that was punched out to .257 Ackley Improved. I believe it might have had additional work done to it as well but it is one of the most deadly rifles I have seen, especially if he is the one behind it.

If it was me an M77R flat bolt .25-06 is the winner. My brother would say a .257 Roberts. Others would say a .250 Savage. None of these answers are wrong.

I guess you can pick one or start a .25 caliber collection...

rugnelli

 

[rugerjunkie]

I have a No.1B 25-06 and an M77 MkII 25-06. Both shoot exceptionally well with 75-100 grain bullets. Over 100 and they are fine for deer accuracy but nothing above average. The lighter bullets are 1/2 to 1 inch 5 shot groups consistantly in either rifle. The 77 prefers 75gr Vmax's and the No1 prefers 90gr Sierra hp's. Both shoot 100gr ballistic tips and partitions an inch and under on a regular basis. Does a heck of a job on both coyotes and deer. And I used the 75's on pdogs this summer and was impressed with the range I was able to hit in the wind when the 22 cals weren't doing the job.

Nothing against any other 25 cal. But I see the statement all the time about if you reload this or that you approach 25-06 territory...so what happens when you reload for a 25-06? The other thing I like about the 25-06 in a Ruger rifle is that the barrel profile is the same as the 7mm,300,and 338 mags. Some don't like the extra weight but I prefer the stout barrel. If a few extra ounces were gonna kill me carrying it around I'd take up knitting instead!! :shock: :lol: :shock: :lol:

 

[Watergoat]

You know, of course, that Lipsey's did a batch of 1-As in 257 Roberts. I think they may have a few left. My buddy bought one last week, same time as I was getting my 26" 45-70. We will go shooting first part of the week.

 

[picketpin]

In answer to the question about what the 25-06 will do when reloaded?? Read the manuals. It doesn't do a lot more at all with light bullets and nearly all manuals list the 120s as too close to call. It's nearly impossible to load the 25-06 any faster than the existing factory ammo, period.

The fastest load listed in the current Nosler Reloading manual for the 25-06 with a 120 grain bullet is 3090 fps. The fastest load listed for the 257 AI with the same bullet is 2972 fps. So 100 fps. The difference is well within the difference between a fast versus slow barrel. Both were fired out of a 24" barrel.

The fastest load for the 257 Roberts with the same bullet in a 24" barrel is 2830 fps.

I don't think a deer that would know the difference.

Here's the kicker. As Nosler doesn't make a 75 grain .257 bullet I switched to the Sierra manual.

The max velocity with a 75 grain HP in the 35-06 is 3700 fps. That is the same velocity as the 257 AI with the same bullet and the same barrel length. The difference is it takes a 14% powder charge increase in the 25-06 to achieve exactly the same velocity. It's simply a function of the 25-06 being a bit over bore. If the 06 case is efficient as a .308 caliber and it is. Then it simply can not be efficient as a .257.

By the the way the fastest load for the 257 Roberts with the same 75 grain HP is 3500 fps and that was out of a 22" barrel as opposed to a 24" barrel for the other two. It also required 26% more powder for the 257AI and a whopping 37% more powder to get 200 fps faster with the 25-06 and that's with the standard 2" difference in barrels that usually exist between the two.

You can't hand load a 25-06 any faster than the factory usually loads 25-06. The 25-06 existed as the 25 Niedner from about 2 minutes after the 30-06 was introduced but it was a wildcat and was never commercially successful or even introduced until 1969. That coincided with the introduction of IMR4350 and IMR4831, the first powders slow enough to really work well in the 25-06.

When introduced in 1969 it was in the Model 700 and fallowed by other modern rifles so there wasn't the worry there had been with the 257 Roberts and the SAAMI spec/pressure for the 25-06 was the same as the 270 Winchester and the 264 Win Mag and nearly 12,000 cpu higher than the 257 Roberts was factory loaded at the time.

Prior to the 25-06 and slower powders the 257AI got pretty close due to being closer to optimum bore capacity and gave a substantual increase with the powders of the day from IMR3031 to IMR 4064 and others with similar burn rates over the standard 257 Roberts, roughly a 12% increase in velocity across the board..

Back to 25s in general. The 250 Savage is slightly under bore so is very efficient but it SLIGHTLY disadvantaged by a smaller case capacity. Remember the 250-3000 thing. It was the first commercial cartridge to achieve 3000 fps. Newton wanted to use a 100 grain bullet but Savage dropped it to 87 grains in order to get the 3000 fps, more for advertising reason than anything else.

With modern powders the 250 Savage can easily achieve 3000 fps with a 100 grain bullet. It is at a disadvantage with 120s due to case capacity. That being said every 250-3000/250 Savage I've ever been around has shot 100 grain bullets better than 120s anyway.

You can get 3400 fps with a 75 grain bullet in the 250 Savage with 34% less powder than it takes the 25-06 to get the 3700 fps.

In reality ALL four are really good dual purpose cartridges and all are superb deer/antelope killers. The big difference comes with light bullets and the 25-06 doesn't do well from a recoil or exspene stand point in the equation. It's a great coyote rifle and as mentioned works better in the wind for PDs than the 22 CFs. BUT a guy isn't going to fire 200-300 of them in a day without feeling it.

Many of the advantages of the advantages the 25-06 had in factory ammo have disappeared over time as the SAAMI on the 257 Roberts and AI have been increased and newer powders and the introduction of +P loadings and Light Mag loadings for the 257 Roberts. That does make it much less of a handloading only proposition for the "BOB" than when I started

Pick your poison, you can't go wrong, but there are differences.

I stick to the 257 Ackley Improved rather than the 25-06 as a general rule for two reason. Recoil is less and yes it can be made up in a lighter rifle and second IF you shoot a lot, the straight walled/sharp shouldered 257AI cases stretch less over time and last longer reloading. If a guy shoot a box of factory 25-06 loads at deer every year, at most, then this is NOT an issue.

Okay, there is a third reason, nostalgia. I dance with the girl I came with. She is still pretty to me. ;-)

Ross

 

[Lloyd Smale]

well i owned 3 model 77 257 roberts guns a standard R and two RL lightweights. All three were realitively poor shooters. Best they would do is about 2 inch at a 100 yards and im an avid handloader and dont give up on a gun without alot of trying. I now own a #1a and it does much better. It averages around 1.5 inch and some groups will go near an inch out of it. Ive had 2 77r 2506s and still own a 1b in 2506 and every one of them would shoot under an inch at a 100 yards with loads they liked. Every other 2506 ruger ive shot or heard of was a great shooter too and the opposite goes for the 257 rugers so id no doubt recomend you buy a 2506 if its a ruger your wanting. Only disadvante is a bit more weight due to a longer barrel.

 

[rugerjunkie]

Good morning Ross. I knew you'd reply to my comments! I can't argue with the facts...but like you said...I'm still with the girl i brought to the dance and she happens to be a 25-06. I always have liked the taller long legged ones!!

I have a friend with a new rifle he just had built in a 25cal. A winchester short mag case in 257. I don't know if the case is the same or if the shoulder has been moved at all but it should be a burner! 12-14 grains more powder than the 25-06. Not exactly efficient either but it should be fun to play with.

If I had the $$ I'd just own em all and not worry about anything!!

Jeff

 

[picketpin]

Junkie: I thought about building one as to have the /257 covered.

It is an exception to the rule about short fats being inhierently accurate.

I was talking to Doug Shilen and he would NOT chamber the 257 WSSM!!

His explaination was that he got too many barrels back or complaints that his barrels wouldn't shoot when chambered in 257 WSSM and he simply gave up chambering it.

In talking to the guys at Sierra they too had experienced problems getting it to shoot well and at the point it was doing well it was full throttle and was a barrel burner.

Probably less so as with the bigger bore it is a BIT better than the 223 WSSM and the 243 WSSM, both recognized as overbore and REAL barrel burners.

I still have 2 boxes of loaded factory 257 WSSM ammo on the shelf in anticipation of building a rifle. It's probably not going to happen.

It's going to be one of the Short Mags that fades away. ;-(

LLoyd: Most 257 Roberts actually shoot the 100 grain bullet better than they do the 120s. If you read Ken Waters books he found the same thing as have many other serious experimentors. I haven't had trouble getting Ruger 77s down to MOA with some load work and that includes the buggy whip 77RL. Even then, 2" is certainly minute of deer. ;-)

Ross

 

[BearStopper]

257 Weatherby shoots well but really overkill in caliber. I happen to have a 25-06 and a 250 Savage and love both. I also have two rifles in 25 Remington and one in 25-20, so I kind of like the ole quarterbore. I would like to build a bolt action superlight rifle in 25 Remington for a plinker/short range rifle on maybe a Kimber Montana platform.

 

[roofinspector]

For hunting, I would favor the 25-06 over the Roberts or the 250. I think the 25-06 was made for antelope. If you are a bit recoil shy, the 257 Roberts is ok, but the stoked 257 AI is about the same it feels to me anyway in recoil. The 250 is a very mild case, but adequate for a lot of things, especially with kids.

All the aftermarket stainless barrels are lapped, so they are pretty easy to clean if one cleans rifles, that is a prime reason why some use them. The other is to get barrel lengths they favor with the overbore cases; at least with today's powders. A bit more powder etc etc, who cares? Most of us will never shoot out a barrel other than perhaps a prairiedog special or just shoot it too hot. Kinda like the guys that own Ferraris, and all of that.

The Weatherby and 25-06 AI's are a notch above in some respects, but do have muzzle blast that some do not care for even with longish barrels.

If I wanted a 75gr machine, all three are fine. If I wanted a 100-120 boattail type rifle, then the larger two are it, with my choice being a 25-06 in standard cases. I would choose a Weatherby or a 25-06 AI in a custom rifle application.

Kinda depends on your wants...........I like others, understand .......needs.

Roof