We just passed the 183rd anniversary of the fall of the Alamo to the Mexican tyrant Gen. Santa Ana. But before the battle of the Alamo, Col James Fannin had a sizable force at Goliad. Following a battle with the Mexicans, hundreds of Texas fighters were captured and then executed. But had Col. Fannin responded to Travis's plea for support, and had he brought his over 400 men to the Alamo to join the 185 defenders (including the 32 that did arrive from Gonzales), might the outcome of the battle been different? Could the Texans, with over 600 men had held off the larger Mexican forces? Considering how well the 185 did against overwhelming odds, might the larger force prevailed and kept the Alamo under the Texas flag? Ultimately the Texans under Gen. Sam Houston prevailed and won independence for the Republic of Texas, but had Fannin come to aid Travis, the "Goliad massacre" would never had taken place, and today we would not likely have had to "Remember the Alamo".
What if Col. Fannin had brought his men to the Alamo...
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DeletedMember275
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I dunno. I think that eventually, weight of numbers would have told in the favor of Santa Ana, just like happened with the original 185 defenders. Even if Santa Ana had just settled in for a siege and starved the defenders out, the odds were definitely on his side. We can 'what if' all day. Let's just take it for what it is - a high point in Texas history.
There would have just been a lot more dead Texicans. Do a little research to see how long the battle lasted once Santa Ana attacked. A couple of hundred more men would not have changed the outcome. That is why none were sent which was a hard decision to make, but it was the right one. Pick the battles that you can win such as San Jacinto Big Sam was correct.
By the way the Guy that rode to tell and deliver the message is a distant relative to my DIL. He went on to become the Mayor of San Antonio.
By the way the Guy that rode to tell and deliver the message is a distant relative to my DIL. He went on to become the Mayor of San Antonio.
caryc
Hawkeye
A couple hundred more men crammed into that little target? Yeah that's just what they needed. And...if Custer hadn't been such an arrogant idiot...
OP
I had always believed that the defenders were too few in number to defend the Alamo as it was configured. 400 more men would have solved that challenge. How many charges, with high casualties could Santa Ana absorb?
toysoldier
Hunter
The Alamo was NOT a readily-defensible position. While the defense of the Alamo delayed Santa Anna long enough for other Texans to get their s___ together, the same result could have been achieved by a fighting retreat, with repeated ambush of Santa Anna's vulnerable, extended column. The Alamo's defenders were brave men, but the leaders weren't good military tacticians.
toysoldier said:
You got that right.
They could have been a whole lot more effective in a different type of battle.
Selena
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Then again, without the deaths of the brave men at the Alamo as a focusing point would the Texans had been as motivated to punish Santa Anna later on? Never underestimate the value of a good rallying cry in the events of our history.
Selena said:
They didn't need another. "Remember Goliad" worked pretty good. A very tragic situation.
EVILDOCTOR235
Single-Sixer
200 M16's and 10,000 rounds of ammo would have.
?
?
Selena
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Wyandot Jim said:
Would Goliad have been enough? A few men fighting a hopeless battle just to buy time for the Texas rebels to equip themselves elsewhere. Men that sacrificed themselves to give the idea of freedom and independence a fighting chance. Remember Goliad was a cry of anger... Remember the Alamo was a cry for liberty at all costs. Goliad was another Thermoplae in the war for freedom, The Alamo... Jesus Christ allowed himself to be nailed to a cross so men could live in Grace, the 13 days the less than 200 men bought with their blood at the Alamo meant that men could live in freedom. Fannin was needed elsewhere, Texas independence depended on him in other places. The Alamo was over a hundred Nathan Hales, giving their lives to something greater than they were.
Selena
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EVILDOCTOR235 said:
Half a dozen 50 cal Barretts and 7 or 8 30 cal Browning machine guns would have bought another two weeks. An Abrams tank flanked by a few Bradleys. Or for that matter a couple of 105 howitzers to take out the Mexican cannon. Since the rule of the day was mass attack M79 with fragmentary would have been hard on enemy morale. All of those were a hundred years away so a moot point. What they had was a few men with the weapons of the time and a dream they were willing to die for. There is no power greater than that this side of heaven.
Mission accomplished Col Bowie, stand down and rest in peace.
Thumbcocker
Blackhawk
The defenders were not professional soldiers and made several mistakes that cost them dearly. One big one was that they tried to defend too much wall. The lack of protected firing positions was responsible for many of their casualties. Travis and others were killed leaning over the walls to shoot exposing them to Mexican fire. Also IIRC many of the cannon positions lacked protection for the gun crews.
Santa Anna was a professional soldier and pretty much carried out a textbook attack wearing down the defenders with the round the clock bombardment and breaching the walls. He lost a lot of his soldiers in the assaults but the outcome was pretty much inevitable.
Santa Anna was a professional soldier and pretty much carried out a textbook attack wearing down the defenders with the round the clock bombardment and breaching the walls. He lost a lot of his soldiers in the assaults but the outcome was pretty much inevitable.
RSIno1
Hunter
This guy? Also one of my cousins.Wyandot Jim said:
Samuel Maverick remained at the siege of the Alamo until March 2, the same day the other delegates were signing the Texas Declaration of Independence. By this time the Alamo was surrounded by Mexican troops, and according to Maverick's children; when Maverick left, William Barret Travis (the commander of the Texan forces at the Alamo) urged him to convince the convention to send reinforcements. Maverick arrived at the convention on Saturday, March 5, with his friend Smith, who carried one of Travis's final missives. The convention was in recess for the weekend, but a special session was called for the following day. By the time the special session concluded, the Battle of the Alamo had concluded, and the Alamo defenders were all dead.
RolandDeschain
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EVILDOCTOR235 said:
There is actually a pretty good book about something like that in the Civil War. A besieged South African Apartheid movement captures a time machine and ships AK 47s to the Confederate Army. On the cover it shows Robert E Lee holding an AK47. :D
https://www.amazon.com/Guns-South-Novel-Harry-Turtledove/dp/0345384687/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=guns+of+the+south&qid=1552064427&s=gateway&sr=8-1
Santa Anna forced his troops to fight with the promise to execute those who refused to fight! Our men had no threats to hold them, and they paid the ultimate price. I have visited the Alamo twice. It is surrounded by city now. For me it is hallowed ground.
gramps
gramps
jgt
Buckeye
Custer was neither arrogant nor an idiot. He just had the misfortune of being too dead to defend himself from the Vipers in Washington D.C.
RSIno1 said:
It is this guy
John William Smith (November 4, 1792 – January 12, 1845) (born William John Smith in Virginia) was a Texas political figure, the first mayor of San Antonio under the Republic of Texas and the first mayor of San Antonio under the state of Texas. He supported and served Texas during the struggle for Texas Independence.
He served twice as a messenger during the Siege of the Alamo. On February 23, Smith and Sutherland were sent by Travis as scouts to assess the Mexican Army's strength and position. Upon locating the Mexican Army in strength, he immediately returned to the Alamo. That evening he was dispatched to Gonzales, Texas with a message from Travis. He returned to the Alamo from Gonzales, Texas on March 1. Before the final battle of the Alamo and its fall, William B. Travis sent Smith with a message for Washington-on-the-Brazos, allowing him to escape the fate that all Texas soldiers defending San Antonio ultimately succumbed to. After delivering the message, he returned with men to fight in the battle but heard no gunfire as their horses drank at Cibolo Creek. He was informed that the battle of the Alamo was over and headed eastward to fight at San Jacinto, where independence was won.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_William_Smith_(politician)
blackhawknj
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Custer fought a very poor battle, little if any reconnaissance, badly underestimated the enemy, divided his forces, they were not mutually supporting, poor use of terrain, etc.
Fannin ? Might have evened the odds, 1600 attackers vs. 187 defenders, and an enemy commander willing to accept casualties. 1600 attackers vs-? 400-500 defenders...?
Fannin ? Might have evened the odds, 1600 attackers vs. 187 defenders, and an enemy commander willing to accept casualties. 1600 attackers vs-? 400-500 defenders...?
At 4 o’clock on the morning of March 6, 1836, Santa Anna advanced his men to within 200 yards of the Alamo’s walls. Just as dawn was breaking, the Mexican bloodcurdling bugle call of the Deguello echoed the meaning of the scarlet flag above San Fernando: no quarter. It was Captain Juan Seguin’s Tejanos, the native-born Mexicans fighting in the Texan army, who interpreted the chilling music for the other defenders.
Santa Anna’s first charge was repulsed, as was the second, by the deadly fire of Travis’ artillery. At the third charge, one Mexican column attacked near a breach in the north wall, another in the area of the chapel, and a third, the Toluca Battalion, commenced to scale the walls. All suffered severely. Out of 800 men in the Toluca Battalion, only 130 were left alive. Fighting was hand to hand with knives, pistols, clubbed rifles, lances, pikes, knees and fists. The dead lay everywhere. Blood spilled in the convent, the barracks, the entrance to the church, and finally in the rubble-strewn church interior itself. Ninety minutes after it began, it was over.
All the Texans died. Santa Anna’s loss was 1,544 men. More than 500 Mexicans lay wounded, their groans mingling with the haunting strains of the distant bugle calls. Santa Anna airily dismissed the Alamo conquest as a small affair, but one of his officers commented, Another such victory will ruin us.
As many of the Mexican dead as possible were given the rites of the church and buried, but there were so many that there was not sufficient room in the cemetery. Santa Anna ordered all the bodies of the Texans to be contemptuously stacked like cord wood in three heaps, mixed with fuel, wood and dry branches from the neighboring forest, and set on fire–except one. Jose Gregorio Esparza was given a Christian burial because his brother Francisco was a member of General Cós’ presidio guards.
Six weeks after the Alamo, while the Mexican wounded still languished in San Antonio, Santa Anna met his Waterloo at San Jacinto. The men who died inside the walls of the Alamo had bought with their lives the time needed for General Sam Houston to weld a force that won Texas its independence. The great sacrifice would not be forgotten by history, nor would the Alamo’s many legends and stories, most of which can never be proved or disproved because all the defenders died.
Thank Santa Anna for gum
Thomas Adams (May 4, 1818 – February 7, 1905) was a 19th-century American scientist and inventor who is regarded as a founder of the chewing gum industry. He eventually joined with well-known chewing gum maker William Wrigley, Jr.
Adams conceived the idea while working as a secretary to former Mexican leader Antonio López de Santa Anna, who chewed a natural gum called chicle. Adams first tried to formulate the gum into a rubber suitable for tires. When that didn't work, he made the chicle into a chewing gum called Chiclets, which is still produced today.
Santa Anna’s first charge was repulsed, as was the second, by the deadly fire of Travis’ artillery. At the third charge, one Mexican column attacked near a breach in the north wall, another in the area of the chapel, and a third, the Toluca Battalion, commenced to scale the walls. All suffered severely. Out of 800 men in the Toluca Battalion, only 130 were left alive. Fighting was hand to hand with knives, pistols, clubbed rifles, lances, pikes, knees and fists. The dead lay everywhere. Blood spilled in the convent, the barracks, the entrance to the church, and finally in the rubble-strewn church interior itself. Ninety minutes after it began, it was over.
All the Texans died. Santa Anna’s loss was 1,544 men. More than 500 Mexicans lay wounded, their groans mingling with the haunting strains of the distant bugle calls. Santa Anna airily dismissed the Alamo conquest as a small affair, but one of his officers commented, Another such victory will ruin us.
As many of the Mexican dead as possible were given the rites of the church and buried, but there were so many that there was not sufficient room in the cemetery. Santa Anna ordered all the bodies of the Texans to be contemptuously stacked like cord wood in three heaps, mixed with fuel, wood and dry branches from the neighboring forest, and set on fire–except one. Jose Gregorio Esparza was given a Christian burial because his brother Francisco was a member of General Cós’ presidio guards.
Six weeks after the Alamo, while the Mexican wounded still languished in San Antonio, Santa Anna met his Waterloo at San Jacinto. The men who died inside the walls of the Alamo had bought with their lives the time needed for General Sam Houston to weld a force that won Texas its independence. The great sacrifice would not be forgotten by history, nor would the Alamo’s many legends and stories, most of which can never be proved or disproved because all the defenders died.
Thank Santa Anna for gum
Thomas Adams (May 4, 1818 – February 7, 1905) was a 19th-century American scientist and inventor who is regarded as a founder of the chewing gum industry. He eventually joined with well-known chewing gum maker William Wrigley, Jr.
Adams conceived the idea while working as a secretary to former Mexican leader Antonio López de Santa Anna, who chewed a natural gum called chicle. Adams first tried to formulate the gum into a rubber suitable for tires. When that didn't work, he made the chicle into a chewing gum called Chiclets, which is still produced today.
mohavesam
Hawkeye
Maybe they should have demanded Santa Anna should sit down with Travis and 'have a conversation'.
Thats propbably what the next generation will be taught if Texas keeps electing snowflake socialists.
Thats propbably what the next generation will be taught if Texas keeps electing snowflake socialists.
My German ancestors, on my Dad's side, moved into Texas before it was Texas.
Recieved a land grant from Mexico through Stephen F Austin in the Red River area.
So first they were Mexican citizens, then became citizens of the Republic of Texas, and the finally citizens of The Great State of Texas.
Proud to be a Texican, you bet I am.
For an interesting read about what became of the Mexican Army after the Battle of San Jacinto, read the book "Sea of Mud".
It's a look at the history based on archeological findings of the retreat back to Mexico by the Mexican Army.
What many don't know is Santa Anne did pull a dumb move similar to Custer's.
Santa Anna left 4000 of his troops and his heavy artillery in what is now Brazoria County and took only 2000 with him to San Jacinto.
After his capture, had Santa Anne's Generals disobeyed his command to not attempt his rescue and start the retreat, the Mexican Army could have easily defeated the Texas Army with a counter attack.
Through a "devine intervention", some of the worst rain and flooding in the area, the Mexican Army was prevented from doing anything due to the swampy river bottoms they tried to cross.
Hince the title of the book..."Sea of Mud".
Recieved a land grant from Mexico through Stephen F Austin in the Red River area.
So first they were Mexican citizens, then became citizens of the Republic of Texas, and the finally citizens of The Great State of Texas.
Proud to be a Texican, you bet I am.
For an interesting read about what became of the Mexican Army after the Battle of San Jacinto, read the book "Sea of Mud".
It's a look at the history based on archeological findings of the retreat back to Mexico by the Mexican Army.
What many don't know is Santa Anne did pull a dumb move similar to Custer's.
Santa Anna left 4000 of his troops and his heavy artillery in what is now Brazoria County and took only 2000 with him to San Jacinto.
After his capture, had Santa Anne's Generals disobeyed his command to not attempt his rescue and start the retreat, the Mexican Army could have easily defeated the Texas Army with a counter attack.
Through a "devine intervention", some of the worst rain and flooding in the area, the Mexican Army was prevented from doing anything due to the swampy river bottoms they tried to cross.
Hince the title of the book..."Sea of Mud".
mohavesam
Hawkeye
Minor correction: Mexico never had citizenship until 1917. Mexico has Nationals and citizenship now, its Citizenship defined and granted by the federal govt as a person "making an honest (law-abiding) living", and at least 18 years old. Quite a difference.
Actually, I don't think Texas after 1836 had its own citizens either, although they recognised US Citizens as such, before statehood. Time to go reread my history books. Mexico never recognized Texas' independence until US statehood in 1845.
Otherwise great history in your family. Impressive your traceable family goes back that far.
Actually, I don't think Texas after 1836 had its own citizens either, although they recognised US Citizens as such, before statehood. Time to go reread my history books. Mexico never recognized Texas' independence until US statehood in 1845.
Otherwise great history in your family. Impressive your traceable family goes back that far.
When you visit the Alamo today you see only a small portion of what was there during the battle. Some of what was part of the mission is now a paved street. Nonetheless, it is still hallowed ground.
mohavesam said:
My Mom has been researching genealogy for well over 40 years, researching not only our family but many other families.
She has tracked both her side and my Dad's side of the families back to when the families originated in Europe.
Her side tracks back to King Charlemagne.
The family name appears on census and land grant records dating from the period in what was Mexico, but is now Texas.
I'll check with her on the "citizen designations".
As far as the OP's original question, more men at the Alamo would, perhaps, only delayed the outcome.
Santa Anna had somewhere around 4000 more troops already in Texas, a few days away.
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