what do you think about cleaning cases using this method

[flyerdoc]

I recently started reloading and am doing it on the KISS philolsophy. Using a Lee Breech Handpress, I am not anxious to invest is the various media mixers and tumblers, takes up too much space...

As a dentist with a lot of older equipment in the basement, I found a small ultrasonic that was put into retirement when we purchased a larger unit. My thought was to use it with a solution of 70% vinegar/30% distilled water. Then let the cases air dry. Final touch would be to hit the cases with a bit of hand rubbing with either Mother's Metal Polish or plain old 00 steel wool.

I probably would not be doing more than 100 rounds at a sitting. What do you think?

Thanks, any comments, suggestions, criticisms welcome.

 

[Mobuck]

I need my cases to be CLEAN--the shiny is secondary. I don't think it's a good idea to use acid(vinegar) w/o plenty of rinsing.

 

[Rook]

It won't hurt to give it a try.

I experiment occasionally with different types of media in my tumbler. I just tried using some 40/70 ground glass sandblasting material on my last batch of brass. It did fairly well but corncob is better. As long as it's clean it doesn't have to be shiny unless that's just what you want which there's nothing wrong with that either.

 

[rattlegun]

With the "right solution" hand polishing the cases will not be needed. I don't use an ultrasonic but the mix you suggest I don't hear mentioned but I'm no chemist.

 

[dougader]

Try citric acid, found in the canning section of the grocery store, in Lemi-Shine dish washing liquid, etc. I get mine from a wine making store by the pound. Hot water, a couple teaspoons of CA in a 1/2 gallon Snapple plasctic jug (or Ocean Spray or whatever) and the cases are clean in 3-5 minutes.

I polish mine, after they dry, in my tumbler for 20 minutes but it's really not necessary.

I decap the primers first and it even cleans out the primer pockets a little. There are other threads here about this method, and multiple pages on the castboolit website as well.

 

[6gun]

ultrasonic is a great way to clean cases but Do Not use metal polishes to polish cases polishes can cause cases to crack when fired.

 

[NikA]

Vinegar is also a bad idea for cleaning brass since acetic acid preferentially removes zinc, weakening the case. I have heard citric acid will work. I bought a quart of Lyman cleaning solution to use in my ultrasonic cleaner. I use a shot glass full in ~2L water to clean hundreds of cases at a time in batches. Works long after the water is too dirty to see the cases in. I rinse in clean cold water and spread them on a towel for a week to dry.

 

[Snake45]

I just read a brief article--I think it was in the current issue of Handloader (available at Walmart) on using various solutions in an ultrasonic cleaner. Some worked better than others. You might want to find and read that piece.

 

[flyerdoc]

Well, just cleaned some cases this morning, used tap water, a bit of lemon juice conc., a few drops of Dawn dish soap and put it all in the ultrasound for 10 minutes, rinsed and voila, damned cleaned cases! Didn't take long. I should mention that I did de-prime them first so that the primer pocket would get cleaned. There is some marking on the cases but not too bad at all, I may hit them with a little 00 steel wool just to see how shiny I can get them, but really not necessary. I will try to get some photos and post the results.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

 

[Chief 101]

I have an old ultrasound from a Dentist office and been using about the same recipe as you...hot water and hot rinse is good. In my first 50 years reloading I built my first tumbler only to toss it after a few uses and did no cleaning whatsoever...didn't change a thing, cosmetics. Looks better to have shiny brass, and it gets the lube off easier...go ultrasound...instead of the concentrate I squeeze a lime into the hot water mix and a small amount of dish soap...

 

[Rook]

Do Not use metal polishes to polish cases polishes can cause cases to crack when fired.

I don't know where that old wives tale got started but it's not true and also the one about Brasso it doesn't hurt the cases either. I tumble with both. I use Brasso with a little bit of liquid car wax in my corncob media.

I once did a test. I left some .50 AE brass in a container with a lot of Brasso and liquid car wax in corncob media. I was going to leave it for one year but I forgot about it and didn't open the container for over 2 years when I was moving. I'm still using that brass and it didn't split or anything else.

 

[mikld]

Ammonia will degrade brass and weaken it. If your brass polish contains ammonia (many do) then your brass is prolly compromised (mebbe not noticeable to the nekkid eye, but chemically weakened). I just tumble/clean my brass in a rotary with corn cob blast media so I have no need to "polish" my cases....

 

[rattlegun]

Do Not use metal polishes to polish cases polishes can cause cases to crack when fired.

I don't know where that old wives tale got started but it's not true and also the one about Brasso it doesn't hurt the cases either. I tumble with both. I use Brasso with a little bit of liquid car wax in my corncob media.

I once did a test. I left some .50 AE brass in a container with a lot of Brasso and liquid car wax in corncob media. I was going to leave it for one year but I forgot about it and didn't open the container for over 2 years when I was moving. I'm still using that brass and it didn't split or anything else.

+1
I've used BRASSO for years and it does no harm, yet another internet wives tale.

 

[Rook]

Ammonia will degrade brass and weaken it. If your brass polish contains ammonia (many do) then your brass is prolly compromised (mebbe not noticeable to the nekkid eye, but chemically weakened). I just tumble/clean my brass in a rotary with corn cob blast media so I have no need to "polish" my cases....

Show me some results of your findings. I did my testing and I know from years of experience Brasso does nothing to brass casings.

The Navy's ships would have their brass parts falling apart if it were so.

 

[6gun]

Well, just cleaned some cases this morning, used tap water, a bit of lemon juice conc., a few drops of Dawn dish soap and put it all in the ultrasound for 10 minutes, rinsed and voila, damned cleaned cases! Didn't take long. I should mention that I did de-prime them first so that the primer pocket would get cleaned. There is some marking on the cases but not too bad at all, I may hit them with a little 00 steel wool just to see how shiny I can get them, but really not necessary. I will try to get some photos and post the results.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Sounds like you have the right idea, I use different mixtures in my ultrasonic cleaner, I always just use tap water and always use some Dawn dish soap, I usually add white vinegar, and some times citrus acid always exploring different recipes and they all work some better than others.

After ultrasonic cleaning I toss them in my tumbler to polish them, tumbling is not necessary but I like to do it seems like brass takes longer to tarnish when polished in my climate.

 

[opos]

Been using "soup" since an old article in the National Rifleman in the 60's or even before..no tumblers or ultrasound back then...we used vinegar..hot water...soap flakes (no liquid soap then) and a pinch of salt....stirred in a rubber bucket (nothing steel) with a wooden spoon for about 15-20 minutes....then rinsed really well...sort of dried them off and let them sun dry for a day or so....decapped first so the pockets got clean....I did this for years...then did some reading...Citric Acid powder instead of Vinegar will passivate the brass (it makes the surface "neutral" so it won't discolor or tarnish)...I now use a couple of spoonfulls of Citric Acid..hot water...a small squirt of Dawn or other dish soap and no salt...I put it into a plastic 5# folgers coffee can and let it sit for about 1/2 hour with some agitation or stirring (wooden spoon)....it might go an hour but no problem as when it's done "working" it just stops...I rinse a couple of times in hot water and blot it with a towel and let it air dry...some use the oven...i don't as I'm in no hurry...brass is super clean...if I want a little more shine I put the dry brass into my tumbler with fine lizard bedding (walnut) and a cap of new finish car polish and give it a couple of hours...doesn't shoot any better but sure looks purdy....I do think one thing....using the new finish car polish leaves just the slightest bit of slippery feel to the brass and I think it's easier on Carbide (no lube) dies than brass that has had everything washed off and it's left with no "slickness" at all...just a personal prefernce.

 

[dougader]

I've got a butt load of 1x fired 223 Remington, LC 5.56, and 30-06 cases that split when I fire them. Cleaned with crushed walnut media and BR-f'in- Brasso.

Don't tell me that ammonia-dosed, utter crap doesn't ruin cases over time. Dump that crap, clean with citric acid, and - if you want - polish with an ammonia free polish like Berry's, Dillon, or Nu Finish car polish.

 

[Rook]

Don't tell me that ammonia-dosed, utter crap doesn't ruin cases over time.

BS! I've let them set in Brasso for over 2 years as a test and that was .50 cal casings and there is not any cases that take more punishment than them when their fired. And not one of those casings has split.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Don't tell me that ammonia-dosed, utter crap doesn't ruin cases over time.

BS! I've let them set in Brasso for over 2 years as a test and that was .50 cal casings and there is not any cases that take more punishment than them when their fired. And not one of those casings has split.

In WWI they proved that storing ammo too close to the horses degraded the brass because of the ammonia in the horse urine. If Brasso has ammonia in it, it will degrade brass casings. Perhaps a look at the MSDS for Brasso is in order.

http://msds.flexoproducts.com:8000/MSDS%20for%20Distributors/BRASSO%20METAL%20POLISH.pdf

It says there is Ammoniun Hydroxide 1% - 5% in it. Ammonium Hydroxide is simply ammonia in water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_hydroxide

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Vinegar is also a bad idea for cleaning brass since acetic acid preferentially removes zinc, weakening the case. I have heard citric acid will work. I bought a quart of Lyman cleaning solution to use in my ultrasonic cleaner. I use a shot glass full in ~2L water to clean hundreds of cases at a time in batches. Works long after the water is too dirty to see the cases in. I rinse in clean cold water and spread them on a towel for a week to dry.

I did more research on vinegar and I found that 'true' it will remove zinc from the brass if it is not neutralized.
http://ultrasoniccleaningaustralia.com/tag/can-brass-cartridge-cases-be-cleaned-with-vinegar/
...so no more vinegar for me even though it puts a nice shine on the cases. Now I am down to dawn and lemon juice (citric acid) for a ten minute wash/rinse and dry before tumbling with case cleaner.

 

[NikA]

Jimbo, that's funny, because I did some further research last night and was able to convince myself that limited exposure to weak acetic acid doesn't matter. YES, it does leach zinc from the brass, so you shouldn't be leaving it sit for days, but it doesn't appear to have much of an effect around room temperature over the dissolved oxygen and other chemicals already in the water.
Here's a pretty comprehensive study:
http://www.iapws.jp/Proceedings/Symposium11/643Petrova.pdf
Summary: ammonia is definitely not good, which we knew. It causes erosion and stress corrosion cracking. Vinegar increases erosion rates at elevated temperature, and the effect is worst when present in an ammoniated solution.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

Going back to Brasso the brand for a moment, I was doing some surfing to catch up on the topic concerning cleaning all kinds of brass (not just cartridges) as to what might be true, what would more likely be heard at a meeting of elderly wives. Numerous conversations talk about Brasso being "reformulated" and not worth a tinker's da(r)n for cleaning brass like the old stuff. I gather the "old" came in a metal can, "new" comes in a plastic bottle.

Does anyone know if the ammonia's been removed, or at least cut way back, in the "new" formulation?

Rick C

 

[NikA]

Rick,
Reading up on this, they removed some of the solvents to comply with US VOC regulations. Looks like they may have added ammonia as a replacement. There is 5-10% ammonia in the new formula.
UK MSDS (supposedly old formula): https://www.futures-supplies.co.uk/downloads/007.092S_Reckitt_Benckiser_Brasso_.pdf
US MSDS: http://www.rbnainfo.com/MSDS//US/BRASSO%20Metal%20Polish%20EN%20GHS.pdf
Maybe this explains why so many here swear they've never had a problem, while others indicate different results.

ETA: Found the old US (2005) MSDS (https://www.conncoll.edu/media/website-media/offices/ehs/envhealthdocs/Brasso_-Polish_-MSDS.pdf), which also indicates high VOC content and a smaller ammonia content. So maybe there is just MORE ammonia in the new version. Like 2 to 5 times as much.

ETA II:
Old (2010) UK MSDS: http://www.needlers.co.uk/media/mconnect_uploadfiles/b/0/b0074_safety_data_sheet.pdf
Looks like the UK formulation changed also, but to remove ammonia instead of VOCs. Ammonia content was much less in this version as well, <1%.
Australian MSDS: http://sealanes.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Brasso-issued-091030.pdf
Pretty terse, but comparable ammonia content to old US version at <5%. This matches old UK version except with more ammonia. Could be a result of limited information/high exposure limits.
Canadian MSDS: https://www.eway.ca/msds/UID258277-EN_122012.pdf
1-5% ammonia. Comparable to US formulation otherwise.

 

[dougader]

Don't tell me that ammonia-dosed, utter crap doesn't ruin cases over time.

BS! I've let them set in Brasso for over 2 years as a test and that was .50 cal casings and there is not any cases that take more punishment than them when their fired. And not one of those casings has split.

Try 10 years jackass.

 

[Rook]

Don't tell me that ammonia-dosed, utter crap doesn't ruin cases over time.

BS! I've let them set in Brasso for over 2 years as a test and that was .50 cal casings and there is not any cases that take more punishment than them when their fired. And not one of those casings has split.

Try 10 years jackass.

Another computer commando. Burrrrr I'm scared.

 

[NikA]

.50 BMG cases have pretty thick walls, and this is a surface embrittlement effect. I wonder whether this is the appropriate test case. Additionally, you don't say whether you container was sealed (oxygen availability plays a role), and the cycle of stressing then exposure to ammonia that would correspond best to repeated firing and cleaning will likely cause accelerated crack growth leading to case failure. Your single test therefore doesn't really tell us anything, unless you actually have data you aren't sharing.

The name calling is stupid, but there is real evidence for this. The comment about the naval brass could have a lot to do with differences in composition and processing: AFAIK, most long-use naval brass is of a different composition for corrosion resistance, and a lot of it is cast instead of drawn, resulting in a different stress distribution.

 

[mikld]

Rook, I'm sure your chemical engineering degree will trump my info but I just found five, non-shooting/reloading sources of info on chemical compatibility (I've even read the Army stored ammo away from horse sh*$ because of ammonia effecting the cases...).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass Scroll down to "Seasonal Cracking".
http://www.habonim.com/pdf/engineering/CORROSION_TABLE.pdf. Compatability ratings "C" at best , mostly "Ds".
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-corrosion-resistance-d_491.html compatibility for bronze (close to brass) "3" not usable.
http://rjglobalwika.com/pages/chemicalcompatibility.pdf compatability ratings all "Ds".
http://www.proboat.com/2012/07/beware-the-brass/

Plus every reloading forum I've visited have examples. I don't think a bit of
Brasso will corrode your brass cases so they fall apart in your hand, but what about that the small bit that gets embedded in a case neck interior or in the extractor groove that sits for 4 weeks? I'm just defending my position, not trying to convert anyone...

 

[Rook]

The name calling is stupid, but there is real evidence for this.

You need to learn to read. I didn't call anyone anything. I said BS! Your keyboard commando is the one calling names when he called me a jackass!

And I don't need a chemical degree to know what works and what don't work. I've been reloading since 1962 and I load a hell of a lot more than just .50AE brass that's been cleaned in Brasso. I really don't care what you people clean your brass in I'm just here saying that the BS about Brasso is a wives tale spread by a bunch of people that don't have a clue.

 

[NikA]

I was referring to the name calling on both sides. But you win. I'm sure you've never experienced a case failure that could be traced to ammonia exposure, and have all the data to back it up, including evaluations of the failure surface, analysis of the brass composition in the area of failure, and so on and so forth. I'm also sure that you have experiments with control groups to compare case life between cases that were and were not cleaned with ammoniated cleaners. Your 54 years of experience certainly trumps the science that's been done on this issue. Maybe it's just that physics and chemistry work differently in the room where you clean your brass.

For the rest of you that prefer a data driven approach: I have an advanced degree in metallurgical engineering that I don't like to mention because of this sort of ignorant defensiveness. I will gladly provide you with numerous studies on brass failure related to the presence of various compounds, as I have gently tried to do in this thread, so that you can draw your own conclusions. In my opinion, you should not be using ammoniated cleaners on drawn cartridge brass due to the possibility of stress-corrosion cracking. This may not result in catastrophic case failure but will almost certainly reduce the life of your brass. Per my prior research and comments, both citric acid and acetic acid (vinegar) should be fine at room temperature in low concentrations.

 

[flyerdoc]

Gentlemen, I realize that there are strong feelings on both sides of the Brasso debate. Lets just respect various opinions take them for what we feel they are worth and move on. I never intended this topic to raise anyone's blood pressure.

FWIW, I have decided to skip any sort of polish and simply use as is, or hit with a little steel wool. But, that's just me.

I find the entire reloading process fascinating, a lot of choices of equipment, supplies, powder, charges etc. Most importantly, I find I take more time with every round I send downrange. Almost like sending your kids off to school, just at a much greater speed!

This keeps up I just may have to get me a chrony...