Value of a KSP-221 w/box!

[Terry T]

I guess the old adage: "I didn't pay too much, I bought too soon" has finally played out for me on my KSP-221!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=335306119

$935 plus shipping! :shock:
Way to go "weaselmeatgravy"!
Mine is only about 420 (by ser. no.) later.

Terry T

 

[Timbo22]

Yes, congratulations "weaselmeatgravy". I have a question though. Was that particular revolver valued at that price because of its early serial number (570 prefix), cardboard box, etc. or because of its configuration (.22 LR and 2 1/4" barrel)?
I have a KSP-221 but it dates from much later (572 prefix) and came in a plastic box. I really, really like it but an offer of $935 would make me think real hard. Mine is NOT unshot. I use it as a trainer for sight placement, trigger control, etc. and then switch to my other SP to finish the shooting session with some 38 specials.

 

[Terry T]

"Timbo22",
Is your KSP-221 a long frame or a short frame? (1 47/64" or 1 43/64" as measured at bottom on right side of the cylinder frame window). There is only a 1/16" difference in frame length between long and short frame and is not easily discernible to the eye unless one is holding an example of each side by side.

These early 570- guns are short frame although the short frame appears to have been made along side the long frame at least to about 572-63XXX as I have one in .38 special in that ser. no. range with a short frame.
At this time, I am not aware of any KSP-221 with a long frame.

I believe the value in this sale was the complete package plus the as new (ASNIB) condition.
Terry T

 

[Timbo22]

Terry T,
I'm almost sure that it is a short frame although I haven't taken out a my calipers to measure. The cylinder opening appears to be slightly smaller compared to my SP101 in 357 Magnum. Additionally, the box is marked KSP-221 and not KSP-221X which should be case if it were the long frame. All my later long frame SP101s in 357 Magnum, 32 H&R and 327 Magnum have model numbers that end in X.
Short and long frames may have both left the factory together for a short time, with short frames being used up for 38s, 9mms and 22s with the long frame being used for 357s, but that is a guess on my part. Only 18,300 serial numbers seperate my KSP-221 (572-654XX) from my earliest long frame (572-837XX) a 357 Magnum DAO (KSP-321XL, Double Action Only, with bobbed hammer).
Thanks for the reply and info,
Tim

 

[Terry T]

"Timbo22",
According to Chad, the earliest known long frame is ser. no. 570-73284, nearly 200,000 earlier than your KSP-221 and my short frame KSP-821, a French contract with the lanyard ring.

It's my contention that the long and short frames were made side by side for at least 200,000 guns! :shock:

I do not subscribe to the idea that the short frames were 'left over inventory'. It would have been a huge investment in inventory. We know that Bill Ruger was very tight with his resources. I think a better explanation is the small amount of steel savings in the short frames was significant over many guns and particularly in police service contract guns like the French Contract. Every penny counts in government contracts where low bid is the name of the game.
His lost wax casting process would enable him to make the two frame sizes side by side with only a minimal extra effort to ensure the longer frames were used for the .357 mag. guns. My guess is that when the short frame molds wore out, they were not replaced.
Just my two cent's worth of speculation.
Terry T

 

[weaselmeatgravy]

I don't think there's enough extra steel in a big pile of longer frame SP's to make it worth the overhead of inventorying two separate parts, even if they were otherwise identical to the center fire frames. Just as it proved not to be cost effective to continue cataloging standard and heavy barrels in the -Six series DA's and eventually the heavy barrel was all they made.

But in fact, the .22 SP frame is different from the center fire frame due to the rear sight configuration.

Regarding the one I just sold, the buyer already has one just like it but his problem is that he has TWO sons who like it so much they both want it :lol:

The 2nd place bidder has bought from me before and his motivation for bidding as high as he did was the box with the KSP221 label.

 

[Terry T]

I don't really have a good reason beyond mere speculation as to why we are still finding short frames with serial numbers more than 200,000 higher than when the long frames were first introduced.
We find them in 9mm and .38 spl. as well as .22 LR. My .38spl is the fixed sight frame, not the adj. sight used for the .22 LR. We've found no long frame 9mm.

This whole thing is like archeology, trying to reconstruct a civilization from a few artifacts. Some days it just seems like the pieces don't fit together. Ruger knows what decisions were made and why but they're not telling "for competition reasons".

I've said it before - value is "a knowledgeable buyer and a knowledgeable seller, neither one taking advantage of the other". With two sons clamoring for a single KSP-221, a slight case might be made for "Weaselmeatgravy" taking advantage of a pressured buyer! :shock:

Still, a world wide auction comes pretty close to a very open market transaction!
I really was hoping to get my SP-101 collection finished before the prices got out of hand - Oh, Well.
Terry T

 

[weaselmeatgravy]

a slight case might be made for "Weaselmeatgravy" taking advantage of a pressured buyer!

The seller does not set the price in a no-minimum, no-reserve auction.

And I knew nothing of the buyer's situation until the post-auction email exchange.

 

[Terry T]

"Weaselmeatgravy",
Of course!
I'm just suggesting that, unknown to you, (if you can give me some license) the seller was desperate to have peace in his family and therefore was willing to pay what ever it took to obtain a nice KSP-221.

This is only in the context of trying to define 'value'. I totally agree that a well advertised, well distributed, no-minimum, no-reserve auction is probably one of the best if not the best indicators of value.

By the way, in another life I was a trained, certified real estate appraiser with several years experience. Same basic principles are in play when one is trying to figure value for other things.

Bottom line: value of a ANIB W/box KSP-221 is into the neighborhood of $950 (in today's (April 2013) dollars)! Bit of a surprise to me.
Seems like gun values have taken a significant jump in the last few months. Either that or the dollar has taken a significant drop when measured against real goods (or some of both).
Terry T

 

[Timbo22]

Just to wrap things up, I would like to say "thank you" to both Weaselmeatgravy and Terry T for the tutorial on SP101 production details. I learn a lot from these threads and try to put that knowledge into use in being a smarter collector.
Tim

 

[Uncle Howie]

The seller does not set the price in a no-minimum, no-reserve auction.

A REAL auction, IMHO. Throw caution to the wind, and let the chips fall where they may...

WMG, I like your style!

(Even if I might not have the intestinal fortitude to do the same. 8))

 

[bedrockfred]

may i ask, what can the seller of a auction do when two people want one item for more than others not bidding think a item is worth? everything in this world is only worth what You are willing to pay! So to the winner of this item Sold, he got His moneys Worth!___bedrockfred

 

[Terry T]

It may be a bit abstract but an example might be a seller putting a bottle of water up for auction when two folks (with money) are dying of thirst. This seller is 'taking advantage' in this value concept : "a knowledgeable buyer and a knowledgeable seller, neither one taking advantage of the other".
Those who are not thirsty may feel that the water is over priced.

Just say'n - an auction may or may not be the best indicator of value. One needs to know the whole story. :shock:
Terry T

 

[bedrockfred]

i feel the winner paid to much! but it has nothing to do with the seller. how do you end your auctions when bidders over bid for a item that others think the price is too much? should the sell lower his price to the winning bidder? if the winner feels the price was to high, he would not be the winner. The winner won, and the seller sold, two people Happy! No problems!___bedrockfred

 

[Terry T]

I would agree, in this case, the seller had no idea that one of the buyers was 'desperate' for one of these.
The question remains, what is the true value?
Terry T

 

[bedrockfred]

my 4" was 526.00 in 08 my 2" was 400.00 6months ago, both unfired but used market. both with box and shipped with 4". i say buyer paid too much! his choice, it does not make the seller wrong in any way.__bedrockfred

 

[Terry T]

We've probably beat this to death. There is no question that the used gun market has been all over the board in the last 6 months with more than a little panic buying.
In my opinion (for what ever that's worth ) the market will settle down in the next 6 to 9 months, barring any major anti gun legislation. I also believe that it will settle higher than just before the panic started but lower than some of the peak sale prices.
Just my $0.02 worth. Time will tell.
Terry T

 

[I_Like_Pie]

Holy Cow...I treat mine like a cheap .22

If I knew they were going for near $1000 I wouldn't shoot the snot out of it.
I have shot it so much that I don't even notice that it came from the factory with a front blade so short it is 2 foot high at 25 feet.

Are they really going for $700+ these days!?!?
It is nice, but not that nice.