I have read many threads on the dreaded turn ring and how many hate them. to me if I see a revolver with a prominent turn ring that is a shooter that knows that pistol inside and out and will most likely out shoot most. i don't mind them, to me its a badge of honor.
turn rings / hate them or a badge of honor
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contender
Ruger Guru
Well, SOME guns can get a turn ring from actual shooting,,, but many of them from dry-firing, or in the case of an OM,,, mis-handling it.
Turn rings on Old Model Ruger single-actions are almost always the result of improper handling.
A properly-handled Old Model can be fired thousands of rounds and carried many, many miles without developing a turn ring.
On the other hand, many other revolvers of various makes may develop turn rings as a matter of normal operation, depending on their design. These are merely indication of use.
:)
A properly-handled Old Model can be fired thousands of rounds and carried many, many miles without developing a turn ring.
On the other hand, many other revolvers of various makes may develop turn rings as a matter of normal operation, depending on their design. These are merely indication of use.
:)
They are an almost-unavoidable occurance on New Model Ruger single-actions, a result of a change in the action design. They can be modified to preclude this, however.
schloss
Single-Sixer
I only own new models. I do dry fire them, but consider it inevitable, and have decided to not let it bother me. They developed turn rings very fast.
I've often wondered if there is a way to avoid it. I don't see how dry firing is any different from actual shooting, in terms of the turn ring.
I've often wondered if there is a way to avoid it. I don't see how dry firing is any different from actual shooting, in terms of the turn ring.
rammerjammer
Blackhawk
All my Ruger revolvers have turn lines except for my LCR. They are just part of heavily using your revolver and don't bother me a bit.
mohavesam
Hawkeye
Ruger's design simply produces a turn ring almost all of the time.
Some folks get lucky with hand-worked timing examples, but I've yet to see/read of a technique which prevents a ring on Rugers consistently.
(I do have a blued Python and a blued Detective special that have seen any many years of firing and still do not show any ring through the finish.)
Some folks get lucky with hand-worked timing examples, but I've yet to see/read of a technique which prevents a ring on Rugers consistently.
(I do have a blued Python and a blued Detective special that have seen any many years of firing and still do not show any ring through the finish.)
There are modifications that can be made to the bolt plunger on the hammer, and/or modifications that can be made to the bolt itself to correct the timing of the bolt drop onto the cylinder surface . . . on New Models, of course.
Not required on correct Old Models, which merely require proper handling.
:)
Not required on correct Old Models, which merely require proper handling.
:)
Hondo44
Hawkeye
I don't mind the cyl ring at all but I do mind an excessively rough cyl stop bolt (many are on new guns) from gouging a groove into the cyl.
So I simply polish the bolt on all revolvers when I first get them. Takes one minute with a Dremel tool and goes a long way towards mitigating the ring. After that, I never think about the ring again.
If the ring really bothers you, listen to Ale-8(1) about the simple modification that will eliminate the ring in new models from normal cocking, if you prefer. However, recognize w/o tedious handling of new models, modified guns can still cause a ring.
Yes, even if the hammer plunger is modified you can cause a ring if you drop the hammer w/o cocking all the way back 1st (a SA no-no!) and when you close the loading gate w/o a cyl notch being directly above the cyl bolt; as soon as you cock the hammer or turn the cyl into place to lock it, you scribe a ring just like on an old model.
That's the reason on unmodified guns that the line goes all the way around the cylinder. Because the cyl bolt only scribes a line starting 1/2 way between the notches in normal cocking and firing. The rest of the line is caused as stated above.
As you can see it can be futile trying to avoid the line on NM Rugers.
So I simply polish the bolt on all revolvers when I first get them. Takes one minute with a Dremel tool and goes a long way towards mitigating the ring. After that, I never think about the ring again.
If the ring really bothers you, listen to Ale-8(1) about the simple modification that will eliminate the ring in new models from normal cocking, if you prefer. However, recognize w/o tedious handling of new models, modified guns can still cause a ring.
Yes, even if the hammer plunger is modified you can cause a ring if you drop the hammer w/o cocking all the way back 1st (a SA no-no!) and when you close the loading gate w/o a cyl notch being directly above the cyl bolt; as soon as you cock the hammer or turn the cyl into place to lock it, you scribe a ring just like on an old model.
That's the reason on unmodified guns that the line goes all the way around the cylinder. Because the cyl bolt only scribes a line starting 1/2 way between the notches in normal cocking and firing. The rest of the line is caused as stated above.
As you can see it can be futile trying to avoid the line on NM Rugers.
Well, I believe that a modified New Model, properly handled, would avoid most turn lines, but I'm not sure how many folks will actually go to the trouble. I do know that some folks seem happy with modified ones and are careful to follow the proper precedures that avoid turn lines.
It's just sad that Ruger doesn't seem to care enough about it to make the relatively minor changes in details that would allow them to ship a "ring-free" product. I'd guess it might also (maybe) involve a little more care at assembly involving (gasp) a little fitting, and we all know thst would affect the price.
Just an unfortunate situation. And in any case, it all comes back to proper handling, whether OM or modified NM.
JMHO
It's just sad that Ruger doesn't seem to care enough about it to make the relatively minor changes in details that would allow them to ship a "ring-free" product. I'd guess it might also (maybe) involve a little more care at assembly involving (gasp) a little fitting, and we all know thst would affect the price.
Just an unfortunate situation. And in any case, it all comes back to proper handling, whether OM or modified NM.
JMHO
Ale-8(1) said:
The master pistolsmiths don't seem to mess with it on the NM's either :?
CraigC
Hawkeye
As Ale-8 has said, it's a fact of life on some guns like New Models and DA's. On a traditional single action like the Ruger Old Model, Colt SAA and replicas, it's a result of mishandling. Most of these guns are properly timed and will never ring the cylinder as long as you don't drop the hammer from half cock.
Hondo44
Hawkeye
Yep, have ring-less Colts and USFAs to prove it. But I don't have any ring-less OM Rugers only because I never bought one new.
CraigC
Hawkeye
I have a ringless OM......but it's been refinished. :wink:
farley
Single-Sixer
They don't bother me at all. Neither do burn rings on the front of my stainless cylinders. Never understood people who obsessed over these things. They're made to shoot and that's what I do with them.
5of7
Hunter
Ale-8(1) said:
Your point, and the use of the term 'properly handled' is valid only if the owner of the revolver wishes to avoid the turn ring.
Otherwise, terms like 'mishandling,' 'improper handling,' etc are terms that apply to guns that are pointed in the wrong direction (at me) and other dangerous acts.
Bottom line: the owner of the gun gets to decide what is proper handling in regards to turn rings and other things cosmetic.
IMO....8)
Farley opines....
The powder residue on the front of the cylinder is just another sign that the gun has been used. I always, when cleaning, brush it off with a brass brush so that it can't build up and let it go at that.....just another irrelevant by-product of shooting a revolver. 8)
WESHOOT2
Hunter
I am more concerned with my ears ringing :shock:
mohavesam
Hawkeye
Sooo... It's like hearing a car salesman talk. Forgive me for not understanding "proper handling" but I am still not reading the details of "proper handing which avoids a turn line on any SA Ruger - old model or NM. I will certainly put it to the test when I see it. (I've heard a couple folks tell me their method but given the "sharpie test" none has worked consistently for me yet).
Any takers? Anyone care to detail this secret handshake?
Any takers? Anyone care to detail this secret handshake?
WESHOOT2
Hunter
I am a "car salesman"........
contender
Ruger Guru
Ok,, lets clarify the "improper handling" issue.
On an OLD MODEL Ruger SA,, (the 3 screw version, without the safety transfer bar system,) a turn ring can USUALLY be avoided IF the person handling it knows how to avoid the turn ring.
An OM has to go to half cock to allow the rotation of the cylinder for loading or unloading.
If you do NOT go to FULL COCK after you have been at half cock, you will cause the turn ring to start appearing. Do this often enough, (such as playing with the gun while unloaded, or constantly lowering the hammer by holding it, pulling the trigger & lowering the hammer from the half cock position a lot,) you will get a turn ring.
So if we want our terminology to be totally correct, "improper handling" should be "improper mechanical operation while loading, unloading, dry-firing, checking for clear, or any other operation where we are not actually shooting."
Personally most of us will choose to keep on using the term, "improper handling" when describing the lowering of the hammer from the half cock position.
I will use the term "unsafe gun handling" when I see someone violating a safety rule.
So, an owner can decide if they want a turn ring by simply improperly operating the gun mechanically.
On the Ruger NEW MODELS,, due to the re-designed internal mechanical workings, a turn ring will happen most of the time unless you have the gun slightly modified. (All that was covered in other posts.)
Bottom line; OM Rugers work differently than the NM Rugers.
How we handle the OM's will determine if we get a turn ring or not.
How we keep our NM's will determine if they get a turn ring or not.
As for the burn marks on the face of a cylinder. Yes, some folks prefer a clean cylinder, others never bother, and some clean it enough to where a tight chamber to barrel gap doesn't get residue to prevent operation.
On an OLD MODEL Ruger SA,, (the 3 screw version, without the safety transfer bar system,) a turn ring can USUALLY be avoided IF the person handling it knows how to avoid the turn ring.
An OM has to go to half cock to allow the rotation of the cylinder for loading or unloading.
If you do NOT go to FULL COCK after you have been at half cock, you will cause the turn ring to start appearing. Do this often enough, (such as playing with the gun while unloaded, or constantly lowering the hammer by holding it, pulling the trigger & lowering the hammer from the half cock position a lot,) you will get a turn ring.
So if we want our terminology to be totally correct, "improper handling" should be "improper mechanical operation while loading, unloading, dry-firing, checking for clear, or any other operation where we are not actually shooting."
Personally most of us will choose to keep on using the term, "improper handling" when describing the lowering of the hammer from the half cock position.
I will use the term "unsafe gun handling" when I see someone violating a safety rule.
So, an owner can decide if they want a turn ring by simply improperly operating the gun mechanically.
On the Ruger NEW MODELS,, due to the re-designed internal mechanical workings, a turn ring will happen most of the time unless you have the gun slightly modified. (All that was covered in other posts.)
Bottom line; OM Rugers work differently than the NM Rugers.
How we handle the OM's will determine if we get a turn ring or not.
How we keep our NM's will determine if they get a turn ring or not.
As for the burn marks on the face of a cylinder. Yes, some folks prefer a clean cylinder, others never bother, and some clean it enough to where a tight chamber to barrel gap doesn't get residue to prevent operation.
mohavesam
Hawkeye
Contender, that's pretty much what I've heard - "go to full cock after loading/turning the cylinder" on an OM is in the manual and it sometimes works to keep the cylinder stop loose until the lock-up.
Sometimes, with SOME revolvers.
I say Ruger's design simply puts timing into a mas-production mode, where the additional fitting and timing work needed to have the stop "loose" against the cylinder until the carry slot aligns is just not worth the manufacturing time. Neither is polishing the stop contact surface, as lots of their guns have very sharp edges and even burrs which will score through the bluing the first trip around the clock. This is why many Ruger SAs show a ring even fresh from the factory. Again, some are better than others, and I've examined more than one on the counter before choosing a new SA.
As I said, the essentially hand-built Colt DAs I own still show stop contact only within the carry slot (the lead slot before the stop notch). My Rugers (and I have more than a couple) just don't have that attention.
No "proper handling" technique is seen for NM that doesn't involve gunsmithing.
Sometimes, with SOME revolvers.
I say Ruger's design simply puts timing into a mas-production mode, where the additional fitting and timing work needed to have the stop "loose" against the cylinder until the carry slot aligns is just not worth the manufacturing time. Neither is polishing the stop contact surface, as lots of their guns have very sharp edges and even burrs which will score through the bluing the first trip around the clock. This is why many Ruger SAs show a ring even fresh from the factory. Again, some are better than others, and I've examined more than one on the counter before choosing a new SA.
As I said, the essentially hand-built Colt DAs I own still show stop contact only within the carry slot (the lead slot before the stop notch). My Rugers (and I have more than a couple) just don't have that attention.
No "proper handling" technique is seen for NM that doesn't involve gunsmithing.
CraigC
Hawkeye
And what happens when you're used to not giving a damn and handle the sixgun of someone who does? What if that someone is a firearms vendor at a big show like the now-defunct USFA or Colt? Stop by and ask them what is "proper" and what ain't. USFA had to start removing the lockwork of their guns before a show because of all the "improper" handling that would ensue. Sorry but doing it wrong for 50yrs doesn't make it right. That's what we call willful ignorance.5of7 said:
Yes because we just keep them in a safe and wipe them down with a diaper every once in a while. BS. The turn line on traditional single actions is not a sign of use. You can shoot the piss out of one and carry it every day and as long as it's properly handled.shoot-n-iron said:
Condescension is not helpful.
Driftwood Johnson
Blackhawk
Howdy
To carry the discussion just a bit farther, the reason you get a ring with a Colt Single Action Army, or an old Three Screw Ruger is because the hammer has to go to full cock and then all the way down in order to reset the bolt. Both guns have different mechanisms, but they share the same characteristic that if the hammer is lowered from half cock, the bolt will not reset, so it remains up pressing against the cylinder about halfway between the locking notches. Any subsequent rotation of the cylinder after that will cause the bolt to rub against the cylinder, which causes the ring. Bringing the hammer all the way back locks the bolt in the locking notch on the cylinder, so that when the hammer is lowered the cylinder will not move and the bolt will not rub.
I don't mince words. If somebody does not know how to properly handle an older style single action revolver, I tell them, particularly if it is one of mine. Call it mishandling or improper handling or anything you want, I will instruct you before handing you one of my Colts or Three Screws.
I picked up this Three Screw Blackhawk last year, and clearly somebody did not know how to handle it properly.
This one, on the other hand, has been properly handled for its entire life, over fifty years before I bought it. It really is not very difficult to do.
As far as New Models are concerned, the bolt is SUPPOSED to rise early. That is the way Ruger designed them. Rising early is a safety feature, to make sure the bolt does not skip over the locking notch. An early rising bolt will ALWAYS form a partial ring around the cylinder. I bought this Blackhawk in 1975, and it clearly shows the kind of ring that is typical with a New Model. Notice the ring is only from halfway between each locking notch to the next notch. I would not dream of altering the lockwork to avoid the silly ring.
Now................Double Action revolvers are a completely different type of horse. Generally speaking, the bolt is going to be up when you open the cylinder. So unless you are very careful and rotate the cylinder just far enough to engage the bolt with one of the locking notches as you close the gun, you are going to get a ring. Frankly, it is not worth the effort, unless you intend to sell the gun as unfired.
I buy old Smiths all the time. Some of them are really old. I couldn't care less if they have a ring around the cylinder, it is to be expected.
I also don't give a hoot about carbon rings on the front of the cylinder. To those who do, I always say, once you have enough revolvers you will stop worrying about carbon rings on the front of the cylinder.
To carry the discussion just a bit farther, the reason you get a ring with a Colt Single Action Army, or an old Three Screw Ruger is because the hammer has to go to full cock and then all the way down in order to reset the bolt. Both guns have different mechanisms, but they share the same characteristic that if the hammer is lowered from half cock, the bolt will not reset, so it remains up pressing against the cylinder about halfway between the locking notches. Any subsequent rotation of the cylinder after that will cause the bolt to rub against the cylinder, which causes the ring. Bringing the hammer all the way back locks the bolt in the locking notch on the cylinder, so that when the hammer is lowered the cylinder will not move and the bolt will not rub.
I don't mince words. If somebody does not know how to properly handle an older style single action revolver, I tell them, particularly if it is one of mine. Call it mishandling or improper handling or anything you want, I will instruct you before handing you one of my Colts or Three Screws.
I picked up this Three Screw Blackhawk last year, and clearly somebody did not know how to handle it properly.
This one, on the other hand, has been properly handled for its entire life, over fifty years before I bought it. It really is not very difficult to do.
As far as New Models are concerned, the bolt is SUPPOSED to rise early. That is the way Ruger designed them. Rising early is a safety feature, to make sure the bolt does not skip over the locking notch. An early rising bolt will ALWAYS form a partial ring around the cylinder. I bought this Blackhawk in 1975, and it clearly shows the kind of ring that is typical with a New Model. Notice the ring is only from halfway between each locking notch to the next notch. I would not dream of altering the lockwork to avoid the silly ring.
Now................Double Action revolvers are a completely different type of horse. Generally speaking, the bolt is going to be up when you open the cylinder. So unless you are very careful and rotate the cylinder just far enough to engage the bolt with one of the locking notches as you close the gun, you are going to get a ring. Frankly, it is not worth the effort, unless you intend to sell the gun as unfired.
I buy old Smiths all the time. Some of them are really old. I couldn't care less if they have a ring around the cylinder, it is to be expected.
I also don't give a hoot about carbon rings on the front of the cylinder. To those who do, I always say, once you have enough revolvers you will stop worrying about carbon rings on the front of the cylinder.
flatgate
Hawkeye
To each his own. I'm a serious collector of Ruger Single-Action Revolvers. The vast majority of my revolvers are "safe queens" and are NOT handled by anyone except me. What little handling that does occur does NOT "ring the cylinders" since I go through great pains to keep these guns in "Factory Original" condition the best I can. I'm also a shooter of single action revolvers and I do indeed participate in "ringless" gun handling. My "New Model" shooters are modified in such a way that carefull handling does NOT leave a ringed cylinder. I enjoy going through the motions simply because I can.
:D
flatgate
:D
flatgate
5of7
Hunter
CraigC said:
Once again, you are missing the point of whose gun is involved.
If it is YOUR GUN and someone handles it in a way that might damage the finish, that is one thing, but if it is MY GUN then I determine what is proper and what is not.
It is not a case of ignorance, it is a case of not crediting a turn ring to be sufficiently important to warrant consideration.
As to vendors and people who DO CARE about things like turn rings, the onus is on THEM to determine whether or not the person who handles THEIR GUN knows the rules of the road.....at least the rules according to the OWNER OF THE GUN....clear? 8)
Hondo44
Hawkeye
rob-c,
Well as you can see your thread has degenerated as usually occurs when this subject is brought up and the in-fighting begins over minutia.
Bottom line: your opinion of the cyl line being a badge of honor is as valid as anyone else's opinion.
The line on both old and new models can be completely avoided for those that want to (described in my original post, #11), or completely ignored by those who consider it a badge of honor or just don't mind it.
I didn't use terms like proper handling or miss-handled since that's in the "eye of the operator" and again, just opinion. Except of course for the written manufacturer's instruction in the manual, that's not opinion. That rest being obvious w/o having to say it.
Well as you can see your thread has degenerated as usually occurs when this subject is brought up and the in-fighting begins over minutia.
Bottom line: your opinion of the cyl line being a badge of honor is as valid as anyone else's opinion.
The line on both old and new models can be completely avoided for those that want to (described in my original post, #11), or completely ignored by those who consider it a badge of honor or just don't mind it.
I didn't use terms like proper handling or miss-handled since that's in the "eye of the operator" and again, just opinion. Except of course for the written manufacturer's instruction in the manual, that's not opinion. That rest being obvious w/o having to say it.
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Not to muddy the situation further but, I would consider it to be improper gun handling to cock the hammer over a loaded chamber if I weren't planning to shoot. It would cause a slight chance of a negligent discharge when lowering the hammer.
Now I learn that it is considered to be proper handling of a single action to cock the hammer fully then lower it (when loaded). So can I assume that this is part of the reason to only load 5?
For the record turn rings don't bother me, but I do prefer stainless guns that don't show the ring as much. Ed
Now I learn that it is considered to be proper handling of a single action to cock the hammer fully then lower it (when loaded). So can I assume that this is part of the reason to only load 5?
For the record turn rings don't bother me, but I do prefer stainless guns that don't show the ring as much. Ed
Hondo44
Hawkeye
eveled said:
Not really, no. Loading 5 is for safe carry in a SA without transfer bar safety.
With transfer bar safety and finger off the trigger once the hammer is released, you can drop the hammer on a live round without discharge. And they should all be tested that way when you 1st get one.
There's situations where a SA hammer must be lowered on a loaded chamber like if something or someone gets in between you and the target or when hunting and can't take the shot, etc.
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