Thumb cocking SA's

[CraigC]

We had a conversation here a while back about cocking a single action without shifting your grip and came to the conclusion that it 'could' be due to some freakishly long thumbs. Got into a similar discussion on THR and I decided to gear up and take some pictures. I wanted to do a video but at this point in time, that would be too much trouble. I think this is pretty illustrative. My hands are not overly large, I normally wear a size 9 or XL glove. I still don't think my thumbs are unusually long.

Demonstration using a USFA Rodeo II .38Spl, here goes.

Normal shooting position using the pinky-under hold:

Grasping the hammer spur with the thumb, no shift in the grip:

Drawing the hammer back:

At half cock:

At full cock with zero shift in my grip, I'll fold my thumb back down like the first pic and be ready to fire:

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

6'2", 34" sleeve, XL glove size, right handed here. 3 NM BHs. 2 with Pachmayr Presentation grips, one with a Hogue MonoGrip.

Of my BHs wearing the Presentations. on has a stock hammer and one has a SBH hammer. With both, I can cock the hammer without changing my grip, but only when I "roll" my thumb off the hammer towards the left (towards my palm) near the end of the hammer's rearward travel. If I keep my thumb pad on the hammer spur, then right before the end of the pulling storke, I need to loosen my grip slightly.

With the MonoGrip one, I can't reach the hammer while maintaining grip.

 

[CraigC]

With the MonoGrip one, I can't reach the hammer while maintaining grip.

I can understand that. The Hogue fills in a lot behind the triggerguard and places the grip much higher in the hand than a traditional grip.

 

[Wyandot Jim]

Craig,
Depends on how fast you are trying to do it.
Most of the Guys shooting one handed in CAS will NOT do pinkey under. When I do two handed pinky under, one handed pinky on the frame. You want to come up higher on the frame so your thumb can give the hammer more of a side slapping motion. To easy for your thumb to slip off when it is just the tip on the hammer. Look at your thumb in last pic. Ya want to start in that same position. It is very hard not to reposition your hand as the gun rocks in the hand. As you are cocking the side/palm of your hand tends to relax a bit from the grip. One of the reasons a lot of others and I have SB hammers.
Anyway the way os that is the way a bunch of other shooters and I do it.
Bottom line whatever feels right for you.
Jim

 

[CraigC]

In 25yrs, with two dozen guns and working them fast, I've never had a problem with my thumb slipping off. I can fire five rounds, reload and fire five more in 17-18seconds so I'm no stranger to running these guns fast.

I don't really care for the Super hammer at all. For me, it DOES cause an issue with slippage. I much prefer a standard hammer, unless it's on a Bisley.

I also grip it the same, whether I use two hands or one.

Shooting position, I have adopted a technique of pressing the weak thumb against the recoil shield when shooting. This was offered by a fellow sixgunner who lives with these guns every day and is a very impressive single action shooter.

The hammer comes back:

Ready to reassume the firing position:

I never shoot with the thumb folded back over the strong hand. I always return it to the firing position shown in the first pic. Unless I'm slip-hammering or otherwise don't have time.

 

[Wyandot Jim]

We had a conversation here a while back about cocking a single action without shifting your grip and came to the conclusion that it 'could' be due to some freakishly long thumbs. Got into a similar discussion on THR and I decided to gear up and take some pictures. I wanted to do a video but at this point in time, that would be too much trouble. I think this is pretty illustrative. My hands are not overly large, I normally wear a size 9 or XL glove. I still don't think my thumbs are unusually long.

Demonstration using a USFA Rodeo II .38Spl, here goes.

Normal shooting position using the pinky-under hold:

Grasping the hammer spur with the thumb, no shift in the grip:

Drawing the hammer back:

At half cock:

At full cock with zero shift in my grip, I'll fold my thumb back down like the first pic and be ready to fire:

I never shoot with the thumb folded back over the strong hand. I always return it to the firing position shown in the first pic. Unless I'm slip-hammering or otherwise don't have time.

Yep I do two handed the same. Except I do not put my thumb forward because like you said I never have time :wink: Why do that. Keep it back by the hammer so you can grab it after it falls.
Just my way.
Don't know about reloading 5 on the clock. We just don't do that.
I can draw two and shoot 10 rounds in around 5-6 sec. on a good day
Jim

 

[J Miller]

I've been shooting single actions for almost 40 years. Big ones and small ones, Colts, Ubertis and Rugers. I've never had the least bit of trouble thumb cocking them. Weather I use the pinky under or high grip it don't matter.

Joe

 

[CraigC]

I guess I should've stipulated that the thumb against the recoil shield is for slow, deliberate fire. The more I thought about it, the more I realized that I never do that when I'm working it fast.

I never really reloaded on the clock. I just got in the habit of doing it quickly every time I shoot. I didn't time it until I got into a "SA for self defense" discussion, just out of curiosity's sake. It was then that I realized that a DA really has little or no advantage in reloading speed if you don't have speedloaders. Because I grab five rounds at a time in my left hand and simply drop them into the loading port as I turn the cylinder with my right hand. With a DA, you can only grab one or two at a time and you have to deliberately insert the cartridges into the chambers one or two at a time.

 

[Wyandot Jim]

I guess I should've stipulated that the thumb against the recoil shield is for slow, deliberate fire. The more I thought about it, the more I realized that I never do that when I'm working it fast.

I never really reloaded on the clock. I just got in the habit of doing it quickly every time I shoot. I didn't time it until I got into a "SA for self defense" discussion, just out of curiosity's sake. It was then that I realized that a DA really has little or no advantage in reloading speed if you don't have speedloaders. Because I grab five rounds at a time in my left hand and simply drop them into the loading port as I turn the cylinder with my right hand. With a DA, you can only grab one or two at a time and you have to deliberately insert the cartridges into the chambers one or two at a time.

Yep agree 100% I always loaded from the belt when I was LEO. They do come out of a DA a whole lot faster. But like you said ya still go to put them back in :wink:
Besides 6 bullets should be enough. :roll:

 

[Wyandot Jim]

I've been shooting single actions for almost 40 years. Big ones and small ones, Colts, Ubertis and Rugers. I've never had the least bit of trouble thumb cocking them. Weather I use the pinky under or high grip it don't matter.

Joe

Yep we have a one handed shooter we call Monkey thumbs. Has REAL long thumbs and can shoot one handed so fast that it's just not fair.
Jim Just call me short thumbs.

 

[ajw65]

Fire 5, reload, and fire 5 more in 17 or 18 seconds. That is impressive, to me. I can shoot them fastbut the reload would kick my butt.

 

[caryc]

I was thinking about that subject once. I though about a hollow on the finger side for the fingers. So I made a pair of test grips. I made the hollow on the right grip since I shoot a revolver left handed.

This felt good but when I held the gun in my right hand it also felt good with my palm going into the hollow. So, I put a hollow on the left grip also.

This is the best thing I've ever felt that keeps the hand in position. Cocking and decocking ten times and the hand was still in the same position.

You may have seen these before. This is a set that I made for a customer. He has 5 or 6 sets of them now.

 

[Silent Sam]

I do essentially the same thing. I always cock with the strong hand thumb. Shooting two-handed my weak hand thumb is against the recoil shield. I never cross my thumbs. I hold a bit lower than what is shown in pictures. I index my strong hand middle finger in the grip screw hole, pinky under. All my SA's are Rugers with smooth grips a bit fuller than factory and standard hammers.

 

[CraigC]

Looks good Cary but your Colt-style grips on the old XR3's are really doing it for me!!! Actually, when I have some made for the Rodeo II pictured above as well as my 12/22, I will be sending along the measurements from your grips.

 

[Wyandot Jim]

I do essentially the same thing. I always cock with the strong hand thumb. Shooting two-handed my weak hand thumb is against the recoil shield. I never cross my thumbs. I hold a bit lower than what is shown in pictures. I index my strong hand middle finger in the grip screw hole, pinky under. All my SA's are Rugers with smooth grips a bit fuller than factory and standard hammers.

Ya might want to try cocking with your weak hand thumb. That way your firing had grip stays put. Aaaaaaaaaaaaa whole lot faster and not as akward :wink: Craig's method is right on
Jim

 

[gasmandave]

I read in and older copy of "American Rifeman" that "Gunsite" offered a SA Defensive course and they recommend that the off hand cock the hammer so that the grip is maintained. They also say it's quicker that way. Just my $.02

 

[Wyandot Jim]

I read in and older copy of "American Rifeman" that "Gunsite" offered a SA Defensive course and they recommend that the off hand cock the hammer so that the grip is maintained. They also say it's quicker that way. Just my $.02

That is also the way the shooters on Top Shot do it also. Not that that means anything :wink:

Jim who cocks with off hand thumb.

 

[Mark Hargrove]

When possible, it has always been my preference to manipulate the hammer with my off thumb - particularly on guns with a quarter and half cock notch. Partly for speed, but very much because it is a more certain method, far less likely to drop the hammer prematurely and mess up the half cock notch.

 

[CraigC]

I've had very good results with your thumb-against-the-recoil-shield method, Mark.

 

[Mark Hargrove]

Ha. I was wondering if that was "me".

 

[CraigC]

Yep, just couldn't remember what username you were using over here, didn't wanna post your full name on the interweb without making sure. Somebody else got "flatlander".

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Wow!

Great photos.

I too have been shooting single action revolvers for over 40 years. Always Duelist style (one handed). Never had a hammer slip forward on me yet. (knock wood). First one was a Navy Arms 44 cal brass framed 'Navy' (yeah, I know that all Navies were actually 36 cal.

Rugers, Colts, Ubertis, Remingtons. I always keep my pinky under the grip and never have any trouble reaching the hammer. Frankly, I never understand why Ruger changed the hammer style on the New Vaquero. I have a couple of the early ones with the high hammer spur just like a SAA. I much prefer it to the low ones.

The only single action revolver I have trouble reaching the hammer with is my S&W New Model #3. The grip is long and the hammer spur is short and curves up.

By the way, notice the gap that exists between the rear of the trigger guard and the knuckle of your middle finger in your photos. I usually have about 1/4" of gap there. That's what keeps the trigger guard from whacking your knuckle in recoil. I actually grip low enough on the pistol to maintain that 1/4" gap. Works for me to prevent 'knuckle whacking' and I can still reach the hammer.

 

[Silent Sam]

I do essentially the same thing. I always cock with the strong hand thumb. Shooting two-handed my weak hand thumb is against the recoil shield. I never cross my thumbs. I hold a bit lower than what is shown in pictures. I index my strong hand middle finger in the grip screw hole, pinky under. All my SA's are Rugers with smooth grips a bit fuller than factory and standard hammers.

Ya might want to try cocking with your weak hand thumb. That way your firing had grip stays put. Aaaaaaaaaaaaa whole lot faster and not as akward :wink: Craig's method is right on
Jim

My firing hand grip does 'stay put', as much as I want it to. Gun rolls up under recoil and re-indexes in the heel of my palm when I recock along with my pinky, and the pad of my middle finger stays on the screw hole. Not awkward at all. Having my thumbs crossed is what would be awkward for me. I don't try to stop the gun rolling up under recoil. My pinky under and thumb against the recoil shield control the amount of roll so to speak. I do prefer shooting SA revolvers one-handed though. My strong hand always does the same thing shooting one or two handed, and my support hand is just that. I don't play in any cowboy games so raw speed hasn't really been a concern although I don't consider myself 'slow'. Compared to competitors who work at speed, I'm sure I am. I have a consistent grip that works for me. Is your strong hand grip different than when you shoot single handed?

Part of it may be that my first pistols were 1911s and that is what I learned to shoot with. Took me while to learn to let the gun roll. I also have double jointed thumbs so when my support hand thumb is against the recoil shield it is curved backwards a bit more than a 'normal' thumb probably would be. This leaves plenty of room for my strong hand thumb to rest. I am also a formidable thumb wrestler. :wink:

Interesting to hear how others shoot, but I'm not changing. :twisted:

 

[JimMarch1]

I use an SBH hammer on my NewVaq357. The stock grip panels are modified to "round bottom" for a pinkie-under hold. This setup puts the tip of the hammer right where it should be - at the joint of my thumb.

In the second pic you can see my thumb just start to curl over the top, at a fraction before the hammer actually starts moving.

If I had smaller hands I'd be using a Bisley hammer to get the same effect.

Oddly, I was able to compare the feel of some genuine 1st Gen Colt SAAs including one with a black powder frame. The hammer tips hit my thumb joint at exactly the same position as my modded NewVaq. Post-WW2 Colts had a higher hammer which is what the NewVaq's standard hammer emulates...and I believe the vast majority of the Italian and other SAA clones are based on the post-war Colts, not the pre-war.

By strong-side-thumbing I can use the same motion one-handed or two. The off-hand-cocking system is possibly a hair faster with light ammo, but I shoot full-power 357 and now that I have the gas-ejection-of-empties system working, I *have* to use 357s for reliable ejection.

 

[caryc]

If you've got an enraged grizzly coming at you I think you'll be using two hands no matter what. You'll figure out how to cock that thing right quick.

 

[JimMarch1]

In an emergency, muscle memory matters.

 

[caryc]

In an emergency, muscle memory matters.

So does caliber.

 

[JimMarch1]

>>So does caliber.<<

Not as much as muscle memory when said memory leads to a fast, accurate shot.

You can stop a charging Griz with a single 357Magnum to the brainpan, a lot faster than you can wing him with a 500S&W.

 

[caryc]

>>So does caliber.<<

Not as much as muscle memory when said memory leads to a fast, accurate shot.

You can stop a charging Griz with a single 357Magnum to the brainpan, a lot faster than you can wing him with a 500S&W.

Well, your shouldn't be in grizzly country with a gun you can't handle anyway. If you're going to go nuts and start pumping lead all over the place then stay out of grizzly country.

Besides, I wouldn't want to bet my life on the .357 to the brain pan.

 

[JimMarch1]

And I wouldn't want to be figuring out how to cock my gun properly in any sort of emergency against man or beast. That's one of those issues that needs to be sorted out way, way ahead of time.