The Lee Factory Crimp Die

[Cheesewhiz]

This is not to take away from veeman's post at all. It's just that that thread got me thinking of some of actual reasons that people have bought them and some of the mixed reviews that you can find on the interwilderness.

I purchased my first one not to solve some issue, several on this forum and others gave it some good marks so I thought I'd try it out. My first was for 9mm (big surprise), after looking it over and actually reading the instructions, I kind of liked it.
I like them more now as I get what it can do, if all things are right with your other processes, it does a fine job of making a taper crimp (for my uses) and lets me run my progressive press with a little less concern about every station point on that press.
I know that, like I said, if everything else is right, my crimps will be fine.
I do run mine (all of them) a little different than some may. I use the taper crimp ring in my seating die to just slightly crimp the bell and let the FCD finish the job. It works well this way as it spreads the forces involved across the ram plate, maybe it helps with any difflection as my rounds OAL seem to maintain a very consistent tolerance that I think is very impressive. I'm really not sure but I'd like to think so. :lol:

Now, I'm a pretty particular guy and somewhat a perfectionist but I have to say I'm quite pleased.

I am also not a Lee fan by any means, I don't hate Lee and much of this is probably from a prejudice but I only own those FCD's and a Lee set of dies for .41AE. That's it, I'm not a fan at all of their presses as I have found them less than what I want but I give Lee credit for getting people in the game and if someone else likes their stuff, good for them. That's not a snide remark, I am happy for that person.. People should be happy with what they get in life.

Now for the negative things I have heard, not all of them just the reasons behind them.

I think many buy the FCD to solve an issue they haven't been able to figure out on their own or even with help. My conclusion goes back to my first points, everything else has to be right. If your belling is overdone, the FCD won't fix it and may chew up brass. If your sizing is not proper, that die can't resize the case with a bullet in the neck. Your sizing die is what creates neck tension for the bullet hold, the FCD really can't fix that. So, if you do not have neck tension, whether it is because of sizing or because of over belling, that die can't fix it.

I also think many just hate anything with a Lee name on it. I've seen it here and elsewhere, just a fact.

...and the last are those that take everything they hear on the internet as gospel and just run with it, who needs facts?
I once was on a forum after running my first FCD for a long enough time to say it's fine and the local self proclaimed reloading guru went off on me for just using a piece of junk that is impossible to get to work right. This twit ran off everything he had read on the interweb about the FCD, of course none of it was first hand knowledge. I'm not a member there anymore, I quit, I don't like closedmindedness without reason.

So that's it, anyone else want to chime in with their thoughts feel free.

 

[Chuck 100 yd]

My experiences and conclusions about Lee are pretty much a mirror of yours Cheese.

I also own a bunch of Lee two cavity bullet molds. Those molds can cast some pretty good bullets even if the molds themselves are of what I would call " just good enough for beginner quality" I often want to experiment with a gun/ bullet combo and just do not want to spend the money for a quality mold untill I am sure that I will be happy with the combo.

 

[mike7mm08]

I am a big fan of the FCD. My reasoning is I see no way you can get optimal crimping and seating in one step. I want any adjustments I make to effect only one thing. For big bore revolver cartridges the secondary sizing is nice as well. Especially like the ability to secondary size pistol cartridges for use in rifles.

I also run FCD for all my rifle calibers as well. Probable not needed but for rounds that get unloaded and loaded numerous times during a hunting season it can only help keeping the bullet where it should be. Also in cold weather a good crimp will help with consistent powder ignition.

I think the dislike for them is people think they are a problem solver. I think the only thing they let you cheat a bit on is case length. As long as your length is in a general range you will get a decent crimp without problems. No way you could seat and crimp in one step with varying case lengths without problems cropping up.

Funny you mention 9mm. It is the only round I ever hoped the FCD would be a problem solver for. I could not get a batch of brass to hold a bullet. I knew it was not the real job of the FCD to fix it but I tried. No luck. Had to run the bell of the case mouth right on the very edge of crushing cases to get any kind of neck tension. Crushed more than few cases while seating. Even then bullets would slip slightly on some of the rounds in a random sample. The FCD did get them to stick though at that point. This was just one batch of winchester brass. Never had a problem again.

Wonder if 9mm brass can be problematic and has a narrow window of working it will tolerate. Have a friend who only will carry factory ammo in his glock. More than once he was shown me a new box of ammo that you can easily push the bullets in with your thumb.

 

[Rick Courtright]

I am a big fan of the FCD. My reasoning is I see no way you can get optimal crimping and seating in one step. I want any adjustments I make to effect only one thing.

Hi,

I agree with Mike on the "one thing at a time" mentality. No matter what kinds of equipment we use, there are inconsistencies "built into" the system, thru tolerance stacking, wear, sometimes even technique where just a change in operator can produce satisfactory/unsatisfactory results, all else being the same. And, if one finds a video with one of those linear machines used by many factories, it's evident they use several more stations than we do, to produce the same result. Kinda looks to me like they apply the "one thing at a time" mentality, too. Since they make a lot more ammo than I have or ever will, it seems worthwhile to me to study their methods!

Anyway, that aside, my intro to the Lee FCD was with a rifle cartridge, the .303 British. My rifle had a headspace problem, as is common with the old Enfields, and I had a variety of "learning experiences" to go thru with both the rifle and my loading techniques before I could get my ammo the way I wanted it. One problem involved bullet migration in the magazine due to what a lot of folks call inadequate neck tension. I'm not sure I'm onboard with all the "conventional wisdom" on that subject, as .312" bullets seated in necks sized to .308" were moving about. After examining a variety of factory rounds closely, all of which do have a crimp IME, I got the FCD and carefully adjusted it until it was "just right." End of problem in that case, so I guess it was a problem solver that time.

From there, I had a never ending headache with a particular lot of a particular brand of brass in the .357 Mag, using the combined seater/crimper die. That lot would grow so badly, with the lightest target loads, it would take trimming EVERY time they were loaded to get consistent good results with that method. So I trimmed 'em all up one last time, and tried the FCD on them, and the results were rather pleasing. I got several more loads out of them without any more loose bullets or crushed cases. So there is a bit of tolerance on different case lengths just as the factory claims. That's a bit, not a lot!

So today, I use the FCD on all my rifle and handgun ammo, and have been pleased with the results. For those who aren't bound up in the "I ONLY use THIS brand of dies and everything else is junk" mentality, I suggest you give the FCD die a try. It won't cost you much, so if you like it, keep it; if not, sell it!

Rick C

 

[mikld]

So that's it, anyone else want to chime in with their thoughts feel free.

That's why we post our opinions, just like you posting your derogatory/snide comments (sounds like the only "ego inflation" here is from attempting to criticize other's posts, showing your "superiority"). It's much more polite to answer a question rather than just direct someone to another site/search engine.

My opinion, from experience with 2 handgun FCDs, is they are a worthless "shortcut" to good reloading. FCDs just cover up problems better addresses elsewhere. They do not give a superior crimp, and if one chooses to seat and crimp in one operation, an FCD has no advantage over a simple seat/crimp die. Actually, I have no problems with any die anyone chooses to use, my objection is new reloaders are told to use an FCD to cover up a problem rather then fixing the problem.

I have three FCDs for rifle cartridges that I use often. So, no Lee hater here....

 

[mike7mm08]

Did not read your other thread. As for crimping and seating at the same time. I have done it. Everything needs to be the same to get good results. If your cases are varying lengths you will have different amounts of the case being crimped or at the very least the flare removed as you suggest. How can you work a different amount of material and the same results. You cannot I have tried.

 

[mikld]

Lee gets tons of free advertising for their FCD from forum threads like this. Some think it's the best thing to come along since smokeless powder and some think they are just a bit less than worthless. Personally, I have no use for them, but if one's mind is put at ease from using an FCD, great, then use one. This is one item that has given "Lee Haters" a free hand, or field day to criticize one more Lee product. 95% of reloading tools are personal choice and there will be fans of every piece of equipment, every tool, and every method imaginable, and just as many detractors of the same equipment, tools, and methods.
As long as one can produce good, safe ammo, go for it...

 

[mr surveyor]

Lee gets tons of free advertising for their FCD from forum threads like this. Some think it's the best thing to come along since smokeless powder and some think they are just a bit less than worthless. Personally, I have no use for them, but if one's mind is put at ease from using an FCD, great, then use one. This is one item that has given "Lee Haters" a free hand, or field day to criticize one more Lee product. 95% of reloading tools are personal choice and there will be fans of every piece of equipment, every tool, and every method imaginable, and just as many detractors of the same equipment, tools, and methods.
As long as one can produce good, safe ammo, go for it...

good answer

jd

 

[Bucks Owin]

Just an aside, but I sometimes wonder if there are those who don't realize that dies can be ADJUSTED for best results. Running a die down until it hits the shellholder and calling it good is rarely optimal... :shock:

Just two centavos...

 

[Cheesewhiz]

Not to keep agreeing with Bucks but I find people are more likely to over do things such as length of motion or pressure than find a happy medium.

....and that goes with settings on almost any production machine, either at work or as a hobby like reloading

 

[Lost Sheep]

mikld, I do not think it impolite to post these links. They are chock full of information and would serve the OP and others curious about the Lee FCD well.

I started these four threads because I wanted to clear the air on the controversies that surround the Lee FCDs without the vitriol that often accompany such discussions. I think they did that very well.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509934
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=691050
http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=168362
http://rugerforum.net/reloading/65863-lee-fcd-pistol-not-rifle-virtue-vice.html#post814465

Also, you are right to mention the handgun FCD separately from the rifle FCD. The FCD for straight-walled cases is a completely different design than the FCD for bottlenecked cartridges.

Cheezewhiz, in the original post, stated "Your sizing die is what creates neck tension for the bullet hold, the FCD really can't fix that." True. But the FCD, in certain circumstances, can mess up good tension. Particularly with lead bullets (which are less elastic than the brass gripping them), thus if the brass in the post-sizing provided by the Lee pistol FCD springs back more than the bullet, tension is reduced. This happens less with jacketed bullets, but the principal applies across the board.

Note that the Lee FCD is not necessary if all you want to do is perform seating and crimping in two separate steps. A combo die can perform just seating by backing the die body out and adjusting the seating stem accordingly. A second combo die (or re-using a single combo die) can then crimp with the seating stem backed out (or removed) so no further movement of the bullet is caused.

Lee's FCD (Factory Crimp Die) performs two functions. Crimping and post-sizing. The two operations are independent of one another and cometimes work at cross-purposes. With lead bullets, sometimes the post-sizing reduces the grip the case has on the bullet. The grip the case has on the bullet is important for three reasons (whether that grip is due to neck tension or crimp).

1) It keeps the bullet from being knocked deeper into the case during handling and very important, during feeding. This is most significant in autoloaders

2) It keeps the bullet from being pulled out of the case during handling, and very important, during recoil of its brother rounds. This is most significant in revolvers.

3) It keeps the bullet from moving out of the case until a threshold of pressure has been reached. This is most significant with slow powders, but important with all powders.

As I said before, in taper-crimped cartridges as well as roll-crimped cartridges, the bullet tension (the grip the case has on the bullet) is provided by friction more than by (roll) crimp. If you post-size a case onto a lead bullet, the case springs back more than the lead does, reducing bullet tension. This is less problematic with jacketed bullets than with lead, but can occur with either.

If your dies are adjusted correctly, the Lee FCD will NOT post-size your loaded cartridges. You will be able to tell if it is by carefully feeling the resistance as you run the cartridge into and out of the die.

The main reason for the existence of a crimp die that operates separate from the (usual) seat/crimp combination die is to simplify installing and adjusting those dies and to prevent the case mouth from digging into the sides of bullet as it is being seated. (This can happen with a strong crimp - mainly roll crimp - on a bullet while it is still being pushed deeper into the case by the seating plug. This is virtually unavoidable with the combo die, but if it is moderate presents no problem.)



Not necessary 99% of the time, but convenient.

Lee Precision's thoughts on the matter can be found in these threads:

One thread contains a lively discussion of the FCD and the function of the post-sizing carbide ring in the FCD. The phrase "9mm" is in the thread title, but don't let that dissuade you. It contains responses direct from Lee Precision, too. Read the whole thing. It is worth it.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465091

this thread contains a poll

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465603

Lost Sheep

 

[jeffnles1]

I use the FCD in reloading 32-20. With the thin wall cases like this, the FCD makes reloading much smoother with fewer trashed case necks. The FCD is a tool. Not every job requires a hammer or a wrench, but when you need a hammer or a wrench, it's good to have one in the toolbox. Right tool for the right job.

 

[andyo5]

I bought Lee crimping dies for .357 and 45LC calibers, because my Dillon crimping die would not form a roll crimp.
I mark the rotational positions on the die to get both taper and roll crimps. Makes it easy to change from one back to the other. I have had nothing but good results from these two Lee crimping dies.

 

[mikld]

mikld, I do not think it impolite to post these links. They are chock full of information and would serve the OP and others curious about the Lee FCD well.

My post said it was more polite to answer questions than just post a link, not that just posting a link was impolite. I still think that. If one has a link to post, it is "friendlier" (and more informative) to give an explanation of what is linked...

As for links to FCD info, google would prolly give 17 pages of hits on this "controversial" subject...

 

[Lost Sheep]

mikld, I do not think it impolite to post these links. They are chock full of information and would serve the OP and others curious about the Lee FCD well.

My post said it was more polite to answer questions than just post a link, not that just posting a link was impolite. I still think that. If one has a link to post, it is "friendlier" (and more informative) to give an explanation of what is linked...

As for links to FCD info, google would prolly give 17 pages of hits on this "controversial" subject...

Thanks for the clarification, Mikld.

I was bothered by the amount of "heat" the Lee FCD (as opposed to other crimp-only dies from other makers) generates. So, I sought to gather together the opposing lines of thought in those threads-without the rancor. I think everything said in those 17 pages you cite got covered pretty well, particularly in the thread on RugerForum.net, especially by Iowegan. But almost everyone on all four threads had constructive information to share.

Lost Sheep