"Stand and Die"

[wunbe]

For those of you not very familiar with the military aspects of the Korean War and want to get better versed, the book The Coldest Winter can be a pretty good start. ( A forewarning though, the author's coverage of background political developments is heavily skewed to the left- -- including denials of Communist subversion and treason going on here.)

For me the most chilling aspect of the war came in the early phase when the North Koreans came close to running us out of the country. At the high water mark of their progress, only a small perimeter around the port of Pusan was in US hands and numerically superior North Koreans were pressing on all sides. US commanders had to buy time with the lives of their men. Their efforts to to turn the tide deserve way more respect than currently accorded.

Of the many battles in that siege one in particular struck me hard. An engineer unit w/o previous combat experience and no combat experienced officers was ordered into a gap in the line around the Nek Dong River and told in no uncertain terms to "stand and die". They sustained and drove off multiple mass attacks over several days with huge losses of their own but held the position until Marines came in to support them.

Such things should not be allowed to slip from memory.

wunbe

 

[DeletedMember275]

Indeed. Right now I sit on the Pusan Perimeter, about 3/4 mile from Hill 303 where 41 American POWs were murdered by the Norks. I'll never forget!

 

[Colonialgirl]

Indeed. Right now I sit on the Pusan Perimeter, about 3/4 mile from Hill 303 where 41 American POWs were murdered by the Norks. I'll never forget!

I visited the site where "Task Force Smith" made the FIRST American Contact with the Norks. Having been stationed there for 15 months and seeing what the country looked like with the rice paddies and then the hills further North; I have tremendous respect for our armed forces in the war. What's sad is that Truman fired MacArthur and those that took over were NOT as competent.

 

[blackhawknj]

Ridgway was our last really great general, Walton Walker was close behind. The Pusan Perimeter was the hardest fought battle in our history IMHO, it could have gone either way.

 

[SAJohn]

Don't forget Chesty Puller. To this day he is still a legend in the Marine Corps.

Say what you want about MacArthur, his Inchon landing saved South Korea. I suspect Truman OKed it hoping it would fail.

Trivia: The CIA told both Truman and MacArthur that China would stay out of the war and it was Truman who first ordered MacArthur to attack beyond the 38th parallel.

 

[Merle1948]

For those of you not very familiar with the military aspects of the Korean War and want to get better versed, the book The Coldest Winter can be a pretty good start. ( A forewarning though, the author's coverage of background political developments is heavily skewed to the left- -- including denials of Communist subversion and treason going on here.)

For me the most chilling aspect of the war came in the early phase when the North Koreans came close to running us out of the country. At the high water mark of their progress, only a small perimeter around the port of Pusan was in US hands and numerically superior North Koreans were pressing on all sides. US commanders had to buy time with the lives of their men. Their efforts to to turn the tide deserve way more respect than currently accorded.

Of the many battles in that siege one in particular struck me hard. An engineer unit w/o previous combat experience and no combat experienced officers was ordered into a gap in the line around the Nek Dong River and told in no uncertain terms to "stand and die". They sustained and drove off multiple mass attacks over several days with huge losses of their own but held the position until Marines came in to support them.

Such things should not be allowed to slip from memory.

wunbe

No they should not - one more reason this is called the forgotten war..... :(

 

[blackhawknj]

The Chinese made almost no use of radio during their buildup to the intervention, hence we figured no radio traffic, no military activity.

 

[blume357]

They also all walked in at night... no transport by trucks.

 

[wunbe]

Sorry but I have precious little respect for McArthur in terms of his Korean War record. Inchon was his only saving grace.

Otherwise ---

As Commander of the Pacific forces he not only allowed troops stationed in Japan to become untrained, undisciplined, and poorly armed but even grandiosly called for deeper cuts in general military preparedness than the Democrats then wanted.

He commanded from the Dai Ichi building in Tokyo insulated by a phalanx of hand-picked yes-men puppets wholly w/o ground feel for the weather/terrain conditions and enemy capabilities and intentions. His minions regularly derided the advice of commanders in country while sucking up to his preconceptions. So they sent troops into Korea clothed for a victory parade, leaving what winter gear they had back in Japan.

He and his coterie blindly ignored evidence of Chinese involvement way past the time when they were killing GIs. They ordered GIs already under fire from Chinese units not to engage them as they were only there to protect NORK hydro plants!

He was shamefully past it and should have been replaced long before Truman finally acted. Way too many GIs died due to his incompetence.

wunbe

 

[wunbe]

Enigma,

Thanks for what you do. And here's hoping it all goes well with the NORKs but it is a big mistake to let our readiness sag -- again.

wunbe

 

[Paul B]

Indeed. Right now I sit on the Pusan Perimeter, about 3/4 mile from Hill 303 where 41 American POWs were murdered by the Norks. I'll never forget!

I visited the site where "Task Force Smith" made the FIRST American Contact with the Norks. Having been stationed there for 15 months and seeing what the country looked like with the rice paddies and then the hills further North; I have tremendous respect for our armed forces in the war. What's sad is that Truman fired MacArthur and those that took over were NOT as competent.

Yeah me too CG. I got the same feeling standing there as I did when I first saw the Alamo.

A not so pleasant story. I was in weather and when the norks first came though, the CO of the weather station as Seoul felt as they were not combat trained he surrendered the entire weather station crew. The nork commander had them taken to a hanger and had them hung as war criminals. My CO felt the same way and said he would surrender if they came across the 38th. Sure was glad he finished his tour before anything happened. Thing were a bit edgy for a while when Kennedy was shot. Spent some time on the perimeter with an M-2 carbine and a 30 round magazine. I kind of liked it over there and wasn't all that happy when my tour came to an end.
Paul B.

 

[Colonialgirl]

The thing too was that they KNEW the NORKS/Chinese were stocking supplies NORTH of the YALU river but our air force was NOT allowed to attack those supplies.
BUT then I've read that the same thing happened in Vietnam where certain North Viet areas were "off limits" to bombing and THAT is where the supplies were stored.
Same thing in WW2; Patton was READY to roll into Berlin and Ike told to let the Russians take it.

 

[blackhawknj]

Truman and his SecDef Louis Johnson were responsible for the sorry state of our military-using the Defense budget as a cash cow to pay for social programs. In the summer of 1950 75% of the tanks stateside were not running, e.g. The LSTs used at Inchon were "borrowed" from the Japanese who were using them as fishing vessels. And we were overconfident.

 

[DeletedMember275]

I think that there was plenty of blame to go around for our country's lack of preparedness for the Korean War, and for the debacle that followed. Dugout Dug was definitely out of touch with real world conditions in Korea, but he had exhibited the same lack of perception during WWII. He simply couldn't understand why progress was so slow in New Guinea - until he left his HQ in Australia and flew over for a first-hand look. There he saw soldiers wading through knee-deep mud, with their boots and uniforms literally rotting off of them during the monsoon. During Korea, MacArthur's staff refused to believe first-hand reports of captured Chinese soldiers in northern North Korea because they hadn't seen them personally. Problem was, they weren't about to leave Tokyo to find out for themselves. IMHO, MacArthur should have been relieved much earlier - or urged to retire, rather than be sacked. Ridgway did a much better job of actively and aggressively commanding UN forces in Korea. He brought a real hurt on communist forces. Given the authority and resources, he probably could have ended the war, rather than settled for a cease-fire.

The problem is that Korea is in a strategic location, and has year round, deep-water ports. It seems that everyone except the US realized that more than a century ago, and has been scrambling for dominance here since then. Ever hear of the Russo-Japanese War? Guess what they were primarily fighting over? Korea. We never should have let the Russians enter and occupy the north at the end of WWII. We also should have never publicly stated that Korea was outside of our sphere of influence, and we didn't really care who ruled here. Our government made the same mistake with Kuwait 40 years later, and look where that's got us.

The US Army currently has no combat mission in Korea. There is less than a full division here - a Heavy Brigade Combat Team, an Aviation Brigade, and a Fires Brigade (Artillery). The rest of the Army's footprint here is support elements. Essentially, we are here because of treaty obligations, and little else. Some would say that we are here to die in a fine, professional manner when war starts, to give justification for an American response. No simple solutions, unfortunately.

 

[blackhawknj]

If the "Great Successor" thinks he can take on the ROKs, he's in for a big surprise. In 1950 the ROK was not much more than a constabulary, a militia armed with Japanese surplus. That was then, this is now.

 

[wunbe]

"In 1950 the ROK was not much more than a constabulary, a militia armed with Japanese surplus".

Nonsense! That attitude was purveyed by McArthur's HQ and was proven dead wrong.

The NORK army (Inmun Gun?) of the early 1950s had a core of battle hardened veterans who had recently fought under the Red Chinese army against and deposed Chang's regime. They had more and better tanks supplied by Stalin than the ROKs or the US forces in country at the time of the invasion. Their tactics --night time infiltration and envelopment, and ambush of relief columns -- negated our air superiority and artillery and their intelligence on the our strengths and weaknesses were also far superior. Add to this an ability to mass forces against weak points and fanatical tenacity in battle and you will understand why they damn near ran us out of the country.

The only reasons they lost momentum were they outran their supply lines and failed to press the attack while US forces were massing in Pusan.

wunbe

 

[blackhawknj]

They also didn't understand US sea power. Mao saw the danger and even identified Inchon as a landing place.
They pressed their attacks pretty hard at Pusan.