SR9C Bullets tumbling

[Phil In Idaho]

Bought an SR9c that had not a lot of round through it. About 6 out of 10 bullets tumble.

Right, What's the ammo you're saying.

Accurate 5.2 Gr
Xtreme .357 dia 147gr
CCi Primers.

Titegroup 3.4 and 3.6
Xtreme .357 and .356 dia 147 gr
CCI Primers

Honaday Critial Defense Factory
115gr.

Fired these exact same loads from the same lot on the same range session with a Glock 19 and a Glock 34.
No issues with the Glocks.

Have shot these same loads with a friends SR9c with no tumbling.

So I am pretty confident it's not the ammo. What in the gun would cause this problem.

Thanks to all for help and Merry Christmas.

 

[kscott]

The only thing I can think of is if somehow the rifling is screwed up. How's it look? How far are you shooting that you're seeing the tumbling bullets on your targets?

 

[22/45 Fan]

You said the gun has had a lot of rounds through it before you bought it. Is the barrel badly leaded or copper fouled? I'd do a very thorough cleaning using a good copper and lead solvent before anything else.

 

[woodchuckssuck]

If the barrel is free of copper and lead fouling, contact Ruger. Maybe a new barrel is needed, and they will take care of you. Test some factory FMJ first to make sure.

pictures of the targets would help us (and Ruger) make a better decision.

 

[Phil In Idaho]

The gun HAS NOT had a lot of rounds through it. I can't recall if I'd given it a good scrub out down the barrel or I just looked. At any rate I will clean it out.

The bullets will tumble even from 7 yard distance.

I am not the original owner, will Ruger still deal with this as a warenty item?

I will also try again with some factory stuff and take photos if there is an issue.

Would the crimp or the oversize bullet make a differance?

 

[Cheesewhiz]

Would the crimp or the oversize bullet make a differance?

Yes and Yes and your Titegroup load of 3.6gr is the max for a 147gr FMJ bullet and the Extreme's you are loading are either plated or lead, so that's an issue also. Does everyone that reloads just look at a recipe and go from there as if it's a flippin' outline of suggestions?

 

[Phil In Idaho]

Yes and Yes and your Titegroup load of 3.6gr is the max for a 147gr FMJ bullet and the Extreme's you are loading are either plated or lead, so that's an issue also. Does everyone that reloads just look at a recipe and go from there as if it's a flippin' outline of suggestions?

I don't know what you're freaking over.

 

[Phil In Idaho]

The obvious question is why are you shooting .357 diameter slugs, the 9mm calls for .355?

Seems like any other approach is just speculation. Don

http://www.xtremebullets.com/plated.htm

Look at the sheet. They sell 9mm in .357 and .356

I've loaded and shot both. They tumble from the ruger and not the Glocks or XD's. I've since gone only to .356 as they seem to have a lower velocity out of the Glock presumably due to the barrel.

 

[Cheesewhiz]

Titegroup is a fast burning powder, most reloading manuals don't show a load for Titegroup or other fast powders for 9mm and a 147gr bullet.
The reason for this is fast powders have a tendency to be spikey with case/chamber pressures at close to max loads and those spikes get worse with a heavier bullet. Hodgdon lists a load for Titegroup and a jacketed 147gr bullet and the max load for that bullet is 3.6gr. That load is also based on that bullet, that bullet is .356" in diameter, not .357" in diameter. A bullet .357" in Diameter would jack up the pressure beyond the listed max for 9mm case pressure and would be dangerous. A .357" bullet is not supposed to be used in a 9mm semi-auto pistol as it could be dangerous even if the load level was lower than the max load.
I can't answer for why someone sells 9mm bullets in .357" or bigger, I do know that some people like to run 9mm bullet shapes in .38 Special revolvers and so those could be 357.-.358" in diameter in a .38 or a .357 Magnum gun. There are also revolvers made that are convertibles that have a 9mm cylinder so you can shoot 9mm in said revolver, those could also use larger diameter bullets.

...but you are shooting bullets larger in diameter than specified for a 9mm pistol and 9mm load data, with a powder at max level, with a bullet that is not jacketed, so it should be loaded at lead levels, so your powder load now is beyond max load. The bullet weight you have chosen in 9mm is not one that most would recommend or even list with a fast powder. Other than that everything just looks fine and dandy.... If you actually own a reloading manual stop using it as a coffee coaster and open it up and read it.

...and if you don't own a reloading manual, buy one, don't get your only reloading knowledge from the internet as that could get you killed.

 

[Phil In Idaho]

Thanks for the info.

Now if you would have just stoped there and not had your little snotty comment after that I would have some respect for you.
But, you're from Chicago so there you go.

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

Well, you listed Hornady Critical Defense, so factory ammo is tumbling, too?

I'd do two things:

Scrub for lead fouling. Use either a lead removing patch or copper (check with a magnet to make sure it's not copper plated steel) Chore Girl wrapped around a bore brush. Bronze wool works good, too. Don't just rely on a bore brush and solvent. Make sure you get it all out. Check those corners of the grooves.

Inspect the muzzle carefully for any dings, dents, or burrs. This would be my prime suspect, since jacketed round are tumbling.

If both of those check out OK as far as you can tell, try measuring the barrel twist. It will be tough, because the barrel is so short. You should get about 1/3 of a rotation over the length of the barrel. Now this is not likely and is a long shot. If the twist is wrong, back to Ruger. At least you know why.

Other than that, I'd send it back to Ruger for evaluation.

 

[revhigh]

Thanks for the info.

Now if you would have just stoped there and not had your little snotty comment after that I would have some respect for you.
But, you're from Chicago so there you go.

Phil ... Cheese is trying to help you. Your comment above could be equally applied to your own posts. Trust me ... Cheese has forgotten more about reloading 9MM than you'll ever know.

Better to take advice constructively than attack a well-respected member who's trying to help you out and troubleshoot an issue that you yourself brought up. The data in loading manuals are not meant to be 'interpreted'. Just because certain numbers like grain weight are the same or similar, and you happen to have some powder laying around doesn't mean that the powder/load/bullet/caliber combinations are compatible.

What you've done is pretty much just 'made up' a recipe for a certain caliber yourself, and then went and shot it. Not the best approach to reloading. I'd shoot .355 bullets out of your 9MM if I were you. You have no idea how much increased pressure there will be by using bullets that aren't compatible with the caliber, no matter what some bullet selling site says is OK.

Agreed ... Cheese's comments were not very gentle ... but neither is a blown up gun and a hospital visit. Most serious reloaders take this attitude to a problem such as yours more to impress upon the person that 'reloading is very very serious business' rather than coming down on them for being an irresponsible handloader, which in this case ... you undoubtedly were. It's not just YOU that you can potentially put in danger doing what you've done ... it's anyone else at the range with you as well.

If you want some spectacularly accurate 9MM reloading data that's caliber appropriate ... PM either myself or Cheese and I'm sure we can hook you up.

I'd guess your barrel grooves are loaded up with lead and/or the plating material, and it just needs a very good cleaning. You'll probably need to use some stainless Chore Boy to remove the lead if that's the case.

Good luck and be safe.

REV

 

[FergusonTO35]

Cheese is 100% correct. Titegroup is a very fast burning powder, meaning the load reaches peak pressure faster than others. In the 9mm powder selection can make or break the performance of a given bullet, especially lead. I would advise trying a slower powder such as Unique or Accurate #5, both of which run great in my own SR9c. I load .357 bullets in all my 9mm ammo, I see no need to buy an extra sizing die when .357 works great in my 9's and .38's. You may also want to try some 125 grain bullets, all three of my guns love the Lee .358-125-RF with 4.3 grains of Unique.

 

[Phil In Idaho]

I have been using AA#5 5.2 gr 147gr. Chrono at an avg. of 918 from my G19. I use 5.1 for the G34 and that Chronos at 923. Which is in the 135 PF range. Most folks up here that shoot IDPA/USPSA load to that PF. The cases look fine, primers look fine. I've loaded .356 and .357 dia bullets. The diff in Chrono is 20 PFS+-. In Titgroup I've used 3.3 and 3.4 gr mostly. I did use 3.6 breifly but they chrono too hot and was quickly abandoned. However the cases and primers looked fine on those too but why beat the gun up.

Shot Hornaday Critical Defense 115 gr.

No issues out of the Glocks or XD's.

Out of the Ruger all of the above tumble. So I think I can eliminate the ammo. Hence the gun. I have given her a very good cleaniong and the barrel looks perfect. I will try some factory FMJ just for the heck of it. I can borrow a buddy's SR9c that I have shot all the above loads through with no issues and swap barrels to see if that is it.

Otherwise it's a call to Ruger.

I've alwys know that someday I too would be the guy that has an issue with a gun they bought. Never had one before. I guess it's my turn. So I'll solve this one step at a time.

 

[FergusonTO35]

Titegroup is not a good powder for top end loads. As its name implies it is a target powder like Bullseye, an application it works very well for. For example, my usual .38 Special load is 5.7 grains Accurate #5 under a 158 grain lead flat point. It clocks 875 fps out of my S&W 10-5, is very accurate, and produces no leading. By contrast, a charge of Titegroup that produces similar velocity causes leading and awful accuracy.

When I get my Kel-Tec PF9 out of layaway I am going to make some loads for it and Titegroup may be a good choice due to the short barrel. I'm thinking it should be no special trick to get a 125 grain bullet up to 950 fps or so and the faster burning powder should help.

 

[revhigh]

Try Power Pistol .... best powder I've found for 9MM accuracy ... designed for 9MM and 40.

REV

 

[Cheesewhiz]

There are about three things that off the top of my head I can think of that will cause a very well made cartridge to tumble in a properly made barrel. The first has been mentioned and that is a fouled barrel, I use a fully copper scrub pad, pulled and wrapped around a barrel brush. Another is a bad crown at the end of the barrel, with some form of gouge or metal deformation that obstructs the bullet as it exits the barrel and the last is a balloned barrel from a squib followed by a fully charged load. All of these issues are easy to find, the first is easy to fix, the others, not so much.

 

[revhigh]

Yeah I thought about a bad crown as well cheese but I figured that was pretty unlikely

REV

 

[Phil In Idaho]

I'm quickly becoming a NON fan of Titegroup in heavier bullets. Funny thing is I have used Power Pistol before and found it a great powder proviced you watch the Chrono. You can stay within the chart and still be way hot. However I did like it. I have used Blue Dot also but it does not meter well for me.

I will get a mangifying glass and look at the crown. I did have a thought of swaping barrels with my buddy's gun. And danger in that? I can't imaging that a round gouing up the feed ramp doing any damage but stranger things have happened.

Funny thing is that Titegroup is a pretty popular powder up here even for the heavy bullets. However I'm finding AA#5 to be a good choice.

Thanks for all the advice folks. I will keep at it.

Merry Christmas.

 

[FergusonTO35]

Titegroup is not a good choice for heavy bullets, it builds pressure too quickly. This is why it is a good choice for light bullets and short barrels. Accurate#5 is overall still the best powder I've ever used.