Speer Reloading Manual #9
- Thread starter cbass
- Start date
Old Judge Creek
Single-Sixer
The loading data and the instructions are still valid... Although some of the powders referenced may no longer be available. I still use a Lee reloading book I acquired in the early 1960s.
Some of those bullets and loads a hard to find data for these days... And that's the value of an older reloading manual. It's a keeper!
I still use my Speer #9 manual... regularly.
Some of those bullets and loads a hard to find data for these days... And that's the value of an older reloading manual. It's a keeper!
I still use my Speer #9 manual... regularly.
mattsbox99
Hunter
New manuals are under $20 and have up to date information. Bullets, powders & primers have changed a lot over the decades.
44shootist
Single-Sixer
No it's not a good idea to use old manuals, new manuals supersede and obsolete all previous data, according to Speer, their reason being that modern bullets and powders have changed are different and that old data is no longer accurate or safe to use.
I should know after damaging a Ruger using old data from the Speer #11 and finding the data changed in the #14 which is the present manual and I failed to use the new data and went with the old and my rounds were way to hot, the new manual showed two grs. less with same powder.
So all I can say is use at your own risk and I hope your not sorry if you do like I am for being hard headed and thinking old data was OK to use when it's not.
I should know after damaging a Ruger using old data from the Speer #11 and finding the data changed in the #14 which is the present manual and I failed to use the new data and went with the old and my rounds were way to hot, the new manual showed two grs. less with same powder.
So all I can say is use at your own risk and I hope your not sorry if you do like I am for being hard headed and thinking old data was OK to use when it's not.
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Bucks Owin
Hunter
44shootist said:
"Damaging a Ruger"?!? :shock: I'd be interested in the particulars...(And it might save someone some grief! :wink: )
Back to topic, my oldest manual is a Speer from 1961 I believe (I'd have to go dig it out for the volume number) with some of my dad's old pet load recipes written in. Actually, it's kind of a hoot to read occasionally, besides containing the data should I ever own an old rifle chambered in for instance .218 Bee, .219 Donaldson Wasp, .244 H&H mag (!) or a Page "Super Pooper"... :lol:
Bucks Owin
Hunter
cbass said:
I think the "One caliber, one book" series are a lotta bang for the buck, I have several...Some data is somewhat old, but there are a lot of recipes in there and you get a good sense of what's a good start by comparing data from a dozen sources rather than one book's... :wink:
But I collect the (too expensive IMO) "official" versions too now and then in order to keep up with the newest calibers as well as the freebie "mini manuals" and supplements you find at some LGS book racks...
I use them all ... old and new. My oldest Speer is #10. Not a problem. One of the things I don't do is load on the high end where even a primer change 'could' be a problem. Nope don't go there. At any rate, having several different manuals is a good way to double check the load you want to use.
Yep me too.
Bucks Owin
Hunter
cbass said:
Self evident IMO, for new/updated data and new calibers... :wink:
DeletedMember275
Hunter
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2002
- Messages
- 2,759
Lyman, Hornady, Speer, Nosler and Sierra all publish manuals. Midway carries all of them and more.
WESHOOT2
Hunter
For overall just-handgun the Lyman Pistol & Revolver is hard to beat; use specific bullet-maker manuals if you choose their bullets.
Hornady, Sierra, Speer: All offer data for their own bullets, and all three are good.
Hodgdon offers their magazine-format "Annual Manual".
The old Speer manuals were written without benefit of pressure-testing; the data was developed on the bench.
Hornady, Sierra, Speer: All offer data for their own bullets, and all three are good.
Hodgdon offers their magazine-format "Annual Manual".
The old Speer manuals were written without benefit of pressure-testing; the data was developed on the bench.
George Tucker
Blackhawk
Speer was pressure testing in the early fifties, my wife worked there about 30 yrs, i know they pressure tested loads for Rocky Gibbs, who lived in Viola Idaho in the early fifties, George.
Old Judge Creek
Single-Sixer
44shootist said:
Sorry , I don't buy a word of this.
Maximum loads are just that - maximum. One carefully works up to them all the while being highly observant for indicators of pressure. When following proper procedure the person reloading should be aware that he's pushing the envelope long before a nice shooter is ruined.
But of course the problem MUST have been with the reloading manual.
I've been reloading since the mid 1950s and have used books older than that and NEVER ONCE have I damaged any firearm using published data... And I'm 69 years old, have all my fingers, both eyes and guns I've been reloading for since I was a teenager
I read the instructions and stay within the recommended loads. If I find a conflict between two books, I err on the conservative side.
Obviously, some folks mileage varies greatly.
Make of it what you will, but in comparing 357 magnum loads with my old favorite, Blue Dot, you see huge differences.
For example, the Speer 11 starting load with Blue Dot and 125 grain bullets (14.3 grains) is higher than the MAX load in Speer 14 (13.0 grains).
My usual load was 14.5 grains with 125 grain bullets but I worked up to 15.3 grains in a GP100. Had to back that down in a S&W 686. And my loads were worked up with standard primers. A switch to magnum primers and I immediately got flattened primers, and sticky case extraction. I can't imagine working a load up to the Speer 11 MAX of 16.3 grains.
My 140 grain load was 13.5 grains; Speer 14 says MAX should be 11.5 grains. Speer 11 says 14.5 grains for MAX.
My 158 grain load was 12.5 grains of Blue Dot. Speer 14 says 10.2 is MAX while Speer 11 says 13 grains is MAX.
You guys wanna use those old Speer 9 and 11 loads, go ahead. I say you better be very careful when the old starting load is 1.3 grains above the new MAX load.
For example, the Speer 11 starting load with Blue Dot and 125 grain bullets (14.3 grains) is higher than the MAX load in Speer 14 (13.0 grains).
My usual load was 14.5 grains with 125 grain bullets but I worked up to 15.3 grains in a GP100. Had to back that down in a S&W 686. And my loads were worked up with standard primers. A switch to magnum primers and I immediately got flattened primers, and sticky case extraction. I can't imagine working a load up to the Speer 11 MAX of 16.3 grains.
My 140 grain load was 13.5 grains; Speer 14 says MAX should be 11.5 grains. Speer 11 says 14.5 grains for MAX.
My 158 grain load was 12.5 grains of Blue Dot. Speer 14 says 10.2 is MAX while Speer 11 says 13 grains is MAX.
You guys wanna use those old Speer 9 and 11 loads, go ahead. I say you better be very careful when the old starting load is 1.3 grains above the new MAX load.
BCB
Bearcat
I still refer to my #9 manual…
I have a total of 21 different manuals from different times and all of the Hodgdon Annual Manuals…
I use the old manuals for data on powders that have been discontinued…
I recently got a 6 pound keg of AL-8 and I have part of a keg of AL-5…
The old manuals list data for it…
Got a few other older powders also and the only source of info is older manuals…
Also, I compare data for the same powder for a given cartridge I may be reloading. Average the lows and average the highs from all the manuals and then take the average of the lows and highs...
That gives a pretty good charge to work with--generally start a bit lower than the average charge of the lower + higher...
Good-luck…BCB
I have a total of 21 different manuals from different times and all of the Hodgdon Annual Manuals…
I use the old manuals for data on powders that have been discontinued…
I recently got a 6 pound keg of AL-8 and I have part of a keg of AL-5…
The old manuals list data for it…
Got a few other older powders also and the only source of info is older manuals…
Also, I compare data for the same powder for a given cartridge I may be reloading. Average the lows and average the highs from all the manuals and then take the average of the lows and highs...
That gives a pretty good charge to work with--generally start a bit lower than the average charge of the lower + higher...
Good-luck…BCB
I suppose now all the guns which shot the old load are now going to fall to pieces because of the new data
hah! If it worked then ... it should work now.... That said, this is the reason we keep saying to have more than ONE manual on hand. I have quite a few references to refer too and check each one if exploring a powder I haven't used yet in a caliber. In cases like Blue Dot that you pointed out, is to start with the lower numbers and 'work up' to where you want to be. Use some common sense... so to speak. The moral is to always check more than one reference.... Then draw your own conclusions.BCB
Bearcat
That's the reason I use the average lows/highs when I begin to work up loads using several sources...
Then compare the average of the low/high and see where it might fall with the sources...
Ain't had a problem yet...
Good-luck...BCB
Then compare the average of the low/high and see where it might fall with the sources...
Ain't had a problem yet...
Good-luck...BCB
Old Judge Creek
Single-Sixer
BCB said:
Me too.
44shootist
Single-Sixer
Old Judge Creek said:
Paul B
Hunter
44shootist said:
Have some respect for your elders. :roll: Nothing wrong with those older manuals but times have changed and the companies that do the load work ups for the manuals have gotten a bit more conservative. I've ben handloading since 1954, had a commercial custom handloading business in the mid 70's and have a pretty darn good idea on how to wotk up a sfae handload.
Regarding manuals, I have all the Sierrs since the started doing them, all the Hornady's from #1 to #8, all the Nosler manuals from #1 to #6 nd most of the Speers except #'s 1,3, and 4. I have Lyman manual from #37,38,39 43,44,45,47,48 and 49.
FWIW, the Speer maunal that is supposed to have bad data is the #8. from what I understand, they were using the C.U.P. method of measuring pressre and the copper pellets they got came with the wrong tarage table. Stuff happens.
I don't take any data in any manual as gosple. I start low and work up using case head and pressure ring measurements along with chronograph data plotted on a graph. In 58 years of handloading, I've never blown a primer and have had only one case head separation and that was with a brand new factory rifle firing brand new factory ammo. :shock: The rifle BTW was a Ruger M77 tang safety model in .35 Whelen. :shock: Simple fix, I made up brass with a false shoulder and then sized it just enough to headspace on that shoulder. No more problems. My gunsmith confirmed that the headspacing was off. I should just send it back to be fixed but the last time I sent a gun back, it took 7 months to get it back. Simpler for me to just cusomize the brass and have fun.
Paul B.
Bucks Owin
Hunter
44shootist said:
Where's the data you used to DAMAGE a Ruger....Some of us are still waiting for details....
(And I'd shoot an OJC handload any day of the week with perfect confidence. Like me, (with 45 yrs in this game) he still has all allotted digits and eyeballs... :wink: )
44shootist
Single-Sixer
Buck, look at the 357mag loads for Win 231 in speer#11 then look at the new load in #14 your see what I'm getting at real fast.
And I started with the min. load I now have a hair line cracked cylinder on my Blackhawk had I used the new data it never would have happened, this is what I'm getting at.
And I started with the min. load I now have a hair line cracked cylinder on my Blackhawk had I used the new data it never would have happened, this is what I'm getting at.
George Tucker
Blackhawk
Takes a lot to crack a cyl on a BlackHawk, been shooting Rugers since 1956, started Handloading in 1954, i only live a couple miles from Speers, my Wife worked there almost 30yrs, when i was young, Veron Speer would put some of his bullets in a paper sack, and give them to us, he knew we were short of money those days, George.
Bucks Owin
Hunter
George Tucker said:
All the oldtimers were a fine bunch it seems. I remember as a kid riding with the ol' man down to Oroville for the day as Fred Huntington would chrono a load for him...
44shootist
Single-Sixer
Also I sent 12 sample cartrages of this load were sent to Hodgdon for pressure testing at Rugers request after I sent my Blackhawk to Ruger for repairs to see what was going on.
Samples were found by Hodgdon to be loaded correctly to the old #11 but were high pressure due to changes in powders and bullets, and obsolete I was told to toss the manual and buy the current one for safe loading, and destoy any remaining cartrages I had loaded and use only modern data.
Samples were found by Hodgdon to be loaded correctly to the old #11 but were high pressure due to changes in powders and bullets, and obsolete I was told to toss the manual and buy the current one for safe loading, and destoy any remaining cartrages I had loaded and use only modern data.
