sidearm for trail running?

[GVR]

Looking for your thoughts on a handgun for multi-purpose woods carry/SD. I trail run out in the sticks and have decided it's prudent start doing so armed. Main concerns are wolf and bear, but running into a meth lab out in the National Forest isn't out of the question, either, and cougars and feral hogs have also been reported (rarely) in some of the areas I run. My wife would also potentially use the same weapon for piece of wind when she solo hikes out in the sticks (more concern for two legged predators than four in her case).

I've narrowed my options to:
1) Ruger Alaskan .44 mag
2) Ruger SP101 in .357 mag
3) Glock 20/29 10mm
4) Colt Delta Elite 10mm

The revolvers could obviously be loaded heavy for my uses and light (38/44 special) for the Mrs, but I suspect a narrower range of options is available with the 10mm.

I run with a pretty heavy camelback as it is, and the difference in weight between the lightest and heaviest of those is around a pound, so I'm not concerned about the actual weight of the weapon. I am concerned about finding a way to snugly carry it. My experience is that a couple of pounds, well secured to my body, disappears after a mile or two but a couple ounces bouncing around is annoying as hell.

I'm pretty sure I could put one of the revolvers into a simply rugged pancake and tuck it into a reachable side pocket of the camelback, don't know about the Delta. I understand there are some limitations with selecting safe holsters for Glocks due to the trigger/safety mechanism, but don't know the details.

Questions:
1) Can the Glocks use heavy handloads with the factory barrel, or do you need an aftermarket?
2) Is there a significant difference in felt recoil/follow-up shots between the Delta and the Glocks?
3) Anyone found a way to run with a Glock or 1911?

Any other suggestions/comments would be appreciated.
Thanks!

 

[RonS]

Ursus Dogsizeus or Ursus Eatatruckus?

I would not hot rod a Glock in any caliber. Most auto pistols do not like it, and modern selfloading pistol ammo (10mm, .40 ) is already pumped pretty good.

Of the guns you listed my choice would be a Glock 29 10mm. My G22 was a fine gun and while I like 1911s, a 10mm in one doesn't appeal to me as much.


These might work too, depending on $$$ and how you feel about the lock.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757773_-1_757767_757751_image

 

[Old Judge Creek]

I have a ranch in the desert. I prospect. We NEVER leave the ranch without at least a side arm.

Now, in my 67 years of 'trail running' I've been attacked by feral dog packs twice, treed by wild boar, returned to my then new truck as it was being "admired" by seven visitors from south of the border and who were most surprised when the rest of my party showed up almost immediately after I got there..., I've met a LOT of 'crazies' and a couple of years ago, three of us were threatened by a very intoxicated group of ranchers who presumed we were the cattle rustlers they were chasing (sorry to say, I am NOT making this up).

Let's not count the encounters with wild animals that I inadvertently pushed into defending their territory.

So, I started by packing a Ruger Blackhawk 357.... When I moved west, that became a 44 mag, then with the vicissitudes of old age, I moved to a S&W 44 mag Trail Boss, etc.

After the near "Oxbow Incident" I noticed that to a man, every one of my group was then packing a 1911 of some sort. And since then, I have moved to a Glock 30 SF.

My advice is to pack a piece adequate to handle your worst possible encounter - in your area. And if you live in the far west, make it at least a 40 caliber.

I've been a reloaded since the mid1950s. I reload my trail ammo, either 44 or 45 with 240 / 250 grain bullets loaded to ~875-900fps. That'll get any job I need doing in the lower 48 "done".

I don't hot rod any ammo. In my Glock I carry a standard 45 ACP 230 grain bullet.

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

Any thing you list would "work". I tend to prefer revolvers for this type of thing, over autos. I also see an advantage to having something immediately available as opposed to packed away. I agree with your heavy for calliber loading. You don't say where you are located. I think if I lived in the lower 48, my tendency would be toward the SP101 with 180 - 200 grain Hard cast would serve the majority of needs and not be so heavy to drag your pants down every few steps. Up here, I tend toward a Super Blackhawk or a Redhawk.

 

[don44]

I have a ranch in the desert. I prospect. We NEVER leave the ranch without at least a side arm.

Now, in my 67 years of 'trail running' I've been attacked by feral dog packs twice, treed by wild boar, returned to my then new truck as it was being "admired" by seven visitors from south of the border and who were most surprised when the rest of my party showed up almost immediately after I got there..., I've met a LOT of 'crazies' and a couple of years ago, three of us were threatened by a very intoxicated group of ranchers who presumed we were the cattle rustlers they were chasing (sorry to say, I am NOT making this up).

Let's not count the encounters with wild animals that I inadvertently pushed into defending their territory.

So, I started by packing a Ruger Blackhawk 357.... When I moved west, that became a 44 mag, then with the vicissitudes of old age, I moved to a S&W 44 mag Trail Boss, etc.

After the near "Oxbow Incident" I noticed that to a man, every one of my group was then packing a 1911 of some sort. And since then, I have moved to a Glock 30 SF.

My advice is to pack a piece adequate to handle your worst possible encounter - in your area. And if you live in the far west, make it at least a 40 caliber.

I've been a reloaded since the mid1950s. I reload my trail ammo, either 44 or 45 with 240 / 250 grain bullets loaded to ~875-900fps. That'll get any job I need doing in the lower 48 "done".

I don't hot rod any ammo. In my Glock I carry a standard 45 ACP 230 grain bullet.

A very good and informative post.

 

[Calthrop]

Here is something to get you started. Glock 20sf or G29 be sure not to fully load the mags because they swell. You do not need to hand load for the 10mm Auto. There are ample examples of ammo that will do the job. If you are concerned about cougars are any other cat an ambush predator. High powered ammo like you would use on feral hogs,dogs or humans just passes through them. Carry a long I mean six inch or more slim bladed knife like a Hissatsu. I saw a MK I Al Mar new for about $50.00 on Discount Cutlery.

The carry system would be on the Wilderness Products website. You can put the gun in the proper safe packer with an extra mag. If you choose you can get the fanny pack system.

The G20 weighs loaded as much as a 1911 unloaded. Do not get me wrong I carried the Colt longer than most folks have been on this planet. Today I consider the Glock 20sf to be the finest fighting handgun in the world if it has an aftermarket barrel. I bought KKM before Lone Wolf made barrels. I have have had no issues with the KKM and I have done business with Lone Wolf and will do so in the future.

Having said the above. The Glock 22 will handle 180gr and 200gr bullets. I prefer full sized service pistols because I shoot them better. Compacts[with the exception of the Ruger 3" GP-100] I find difficult to Index on the draw and maintain a good shooting grip. This includes the Glock G30.36 and 29.

Uncle Mikes makes makes a service belt suspender made for the police market. It is light weight and rugged if you want to go the utility belt route. I highly suggest you look into the Wilderness Safe Packer. k Calthrop

 

[Smokngun]

I am not sure this meets your caliber requirement, but North American Arms makes about the only gun that you could actually trail run with. I am going to recommend the Pug. I am also a trail runner and couldn't think of an easier gun to carry while running.

 

[GVR]

Thanks for the suggestions, keep 'em coming.
I'm in the lower 48, and by "heavy handloads" for the Glock I was referring to commercially available stuff from DoubleTap, Buffalo Bore, etc, as opposed to white box or green box generics.

 

[Kanook]

Since you mentioned your wife.

See what she is capable of using in a hurry and go from there.

Your walking in the woods, cat jumps on you, you get the Glock out and try to shoot said kitty while on you. Slide gets pushed out of battery from so much contact from kitty. No bang.

Same cat, You get out your Delta, drop it while trying to get it on kitty, wife grabs it, doesn't know how to work safety.

44mag and 10mm, wife shoots and the recoil is so much she can't aim rapid fire.

45lc, 44special, 357mag in a double action revolver, wife grabs, shoots you takes home kitty as new pet, enjoys the life insurance you left her.

 

[BearBio]

You don't say where you are. Makes a difference. Also define trail running. Running as in jogging? As in running a trap line? Running trails on an ATV? Assuming you will be on foot:

Bears: BIG difference between grizzly and black bears. Black bears are more likely to be predatory on humans. Been charged once and, believe me, you DO NOT have time to get a gun/spray out of a pack! A bear can cover 50 yards in 2 seconds!

Wolves: VERY unlikely to attack. Only one known attack on humans (Ignore the case in Canada==I read the autopsy and that was almost surely a black bear predatory attack) The only known attack was on a jogger==likely triggered a chase reflex (Like running from a dog).
If you have wolves, you are likely to have moose---a bigger danger in my opinion.

Feral pigs= Good question. I've seen .44s bounce off that gristle plate. Been chased to my truck once by a sow. I had a 20 yard head start and beat her by about 3 seconds over 50 yards. If they are hunted where you are at, they'll usually run from a gunshot. (I guided on pigs while in grad school)

Feral dogs: Not hard to stop but will attack in numbers (like wolves). Will need rapid shots and lots of them (I have acquaintances who have done animal control in summer camp areas.

Meth labs (and pot plantations): booby traps likely and usually one person guarding. We've run into both, while in Federal vehicles. No problem=we just backed on out, while careful not to use the radio or cell phones.

Guns: I live where moose, grizzly, and wolves are rare but possible. Black bears very common and ate a guy (scavenging, I think) about 3 years ago. Pot labs are numerous but the meth labs are more common out in the desert east of here. I personally carry a gun AND pepper spray. I carry a Ruger Vaquero with 300 gr hardcast at about 1200 fps. Wife carries a heavy loaded .41 Blackhawk. For concealed carry, I use a Colt Commander in 45.acp.

If you don't have big bears & moose to consider, I'd go with something about .357 in power.

Story: During the fire season a couple of years ago, a hotshot team in Idaho was out when when they were called out to fight a fire. A relief crew of seasonal workers was sent in to bring the horses, camping gear, etc out. They radioed seeing wolf sign "everywhere". That night (the first) they reported hearing wolves, seeing eyeshine, etc. They were told" They won't hurt you". The next day, they reported seeing wolves and hearing them that night. The third day, they radioed out for a helicopter pick-up. The helicopter brought in one old wrangler and a LE officer. The two of them emerged 3 days later with all the gear, the horses, and some great pictures of the wolves. No incidents!

The Forest Supervisor won't use guys from non-wolf areas anymore!

 

[eagle55]

You don't say where you are. Makes a difference. Also define trail running. Running as in jogging? As in running a trap line? Running trails on an ATV? Assuming you will be on foot:

Bears: BIG difference between grizzly and black bears. Black bears are more likely to be predatory on humans. Been charged once and, believe me, you DO NOT have time to get a gun/spray out of a pack! A bear can cover 50 yards in 2 seconds!

Wolves: VERY unlikely to attack. Only one known attack on humans (Ignore the case in Canada==I read the autopsy and that was almost surely a black bear predatory attack) The only known attack was on a jogger==likely triggered a chase reflex (Like running from a dog).
If you have wolves, you are likely to have moose---a bigger danger in my opinion.

Bear behavior is so interesting how it changes from place to place. It seems to me that here in SE Alaska the blackies are shy creatures but the browns are more aggressive. Also there has been a new wolf attack that happened this year out in SW Alaska where a school teacher out for a walk was found dead, killed by a wolf pack, so it can happen.

 

[GVR]

Black Bears around here, not griz. Trail running = running for exercise on trails, away from populated areas.
I know wolf attacks on humans are extremely rare, but I usually have my dog running with me, and there have been a couple dozen wolf/dog predations in the state this year. DNR also put down some wolves this year because they had lost fear of humans; as I read the description of that between the lines, it sounded like they'd been stalking children. I know of a hunter that had used deer urine on scent pads to cover his smell walking into his blind, he had a wolf follow the smell and stick it's nose under the flap of his ground blind.
Agreed, odds of a wolf attack on a human are extremely low, but I don't want to be that noteworthy exception.

 

[eagle55]

Another reason I carry my BH when I go out on the trails is the possibility of rabies in smaller predatory animals, at least here in AK. Not sure about the lower 48 if that worry applies. Years ago I once saw a arctic fox, all bloodied up come running out of nowhere and bite the guy in front of me on the heal of his boot! We were in Prudhoe Bay and getting on a bus to go to work. Fortunately his boot protected him but wonder if he would have managed to break skin it would have meant painful stomach injections No thanks!

 

[chris_]

I do not understand most of the Glock comments in this thread. Hvving owned, worked on and loaded for Glock 10's for a long time, none of what I have read here have I found to be true. Load the mags all the way up and shoot stuff as hot as you want! My personal 20 and 29 eat 180gr and 200gr bullets that are so far above posted loads that it makes me laugh. I shot them until I found the max and then lowered it, no problem. I do run aftermarket barrels because I don't like what factory barrels tend to do to brass, even the newer ones that are supposed to correct the problems. There isn't much a 200gr round moving 1200 fps out of my 29 isn't going to bring down. Glocks handle hot loads just fine. Most factory 10mm is barely 40+P but a few folks are selling hot stuff. Having said all that, I'd get a 29 or an SP101.

 

[one bullet]

Here's my two cents worth. When you are talking about your life I would sacrifice a little comfort for an adequate firearm. I can't speak to the bear part of the equation but until recently I ran at least three times a week in the woods. I always carried a Glock model 32, .357 Sig, in a blackhawk holster. I simply wore a regular leather belt around my running shorts/pants and tightened it down, not uncomfortable, but snug. I would have a slight amount of movement throughout the run but not enough to worry about. A Glock 30 or 36 are both .45's and might be a little lighter. I carry a gun everyday, all day, so I'm used to it. When running in the woods or city, my gun was never an issue to the point that I wouldn’t' carry it. Let us know what you decide

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

Eagle, Bear Bio doesn't give any credibility to wolves attacking humans even though there are long histories of it happening. It's part of the effort to humanize the wolf. As a result there are specific criteria that all but makes it impossible for a wolf attack to be actually considered a legitimate attack. Here are the criteria these people use:
requirements for documentation negate all historical records!



As with rabid wolves, the biologist can say, "There are no `documented' cases of wild healthy wolves attacking humans." In order to be "documented" these unreasonable criteria must be met:



1. The wolf has to be killed, examined and found to be healthy.



2. It must be proven that the wolf was never kept in captivity in its entire life.



3. There must be eyewitnesses to the attack.



4. The person must die from their wounds (bites are generally not considered attacks according to the biologists).



That is a "documented" attack.



Such criteria make it very difficult to document any historical account of a wolf attack on a human!



Biologists assume when a wolf attacks a human, that there must be something wrong with the wolf. It's either been in captivity or it's sick or whatever. They don't examine the evidence in an unbiased manner or use historical tests.

 

[BearBio]

Bear behavior is so interesting how it changes from place to place. It seems to me that here in SE Alaska the blackies are shy creatures but the browns are more aggressive. Also there has been a new wolf attack that happened this year out in SW Alaska where a school teacher out for a walk was found dead, killed by a wolf pack, so it can happen.

Actually, she was jogging. That was the case I was referring to. It might or might not be worth mentioning that she was short, slender and blond. Blond animals tend to stand out in a group. I once watched a very well fed African Lion (in L.A. Zoo) lazily watching people walk by until a 3 yr old blond toddler ran by==he sat up and stared at that kid until he and his parents wandered away. It was like watching a living Sidewinder missile lock on.

Bear behavior does vary from area to area. Documented predatory attacks seem to come from 2 areas: where bears know people because of frequent encounters and areas where encounters are very rare. There seem to be a lot from around Ontario and less further west. North of Fairbanks has a fair number. Browns and grizzlies tend to do more damage for two reasons: genetic background/natural selection and sheer size.

 

[Wit]

I'm a runner too, but not on a trail. I only carry a folding knife when running. I have no experience with those 2 and 4 legged animals, but I'd say Alaskan .44 mag is top of my (your) list. A 3" GP-100 in heavey .357 mag bullet is my second (since you said the weight is not a problem.) One thing to consider, revolvers are easier to shoot and control in sweating hands (from running.) Good luck....

 

[Tommy Kelly]

In my opinion you have the best gun listed on your list for both you and your wife. The 454 ruger alaskan is a great little gun. Loaded with the 454 casual it is a powerhouse then drop back to 45 colt for the wife would be a great dual purpose handgun. In a simply rugged pancake holster it is easily carried and easy accessed

 

[jpickar]

Now you went and done it!!!!!

We have had two wolf attacks here this fall in MT. Wolves do attack humans. Inspite what some posters say. BearBio name inferws he is a bear biologist. Correct me if I am wrong but I bet I'm not far off on that.

All government biologist are "trained to think a certain way" and that is generally a "propoganist" view point in the general publics view.

This is not a personal attack on you BearBio but a description of how the taxpayers view government paid biologist.

John

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

Exactly. My post indicates how the thought goes.

 

[McP]

I find it interesting that amongst the good feedback in this thread, nobody has mentioned reliability. While I prefer revolvers, single actions in particular, I do own and enjoy the autos too. I keep an FN within reach when the lights go out. But having said that, I still can't quite help but be aware of the occaisional FTE or stovepipe that can occur. I would hate like heck to be staring at a charging crazie (2 or 4 legged kind), wondering why my trigger pull wasnt followed by a bang.

The situation suggests a larger than normal amount of risk. Because of that, I'd suggest compensating with the larger dose of a sure thing, the wheel gun.

 

[eagle55]

Actually, she was jogging. That was the case I was referring to. It might or might not be worth mentioning that she was short, slender and blond. Blond animals tend to stand out in a group.

One other thing that may have set her apart, I bet she didn't have a gun either! That is all well and good, but I would rather have something to shoot back should the need arise. A couple years ago I was walking my dog on a well used trail near Juneau and met up with "Romeo" a wolf that had taken a liken to people. I tend to get a tad nervous around wild animals that have been humanified enough warrant names and well, he walked with us all the way back to the car, about 3/4 mile in all, about 20 feet off to the side of the trail in the snow. I think he was trying to get my dog to chase it or play, but I was having none of it. My dog at the time was getting pretty old. Anyway someone recently has shot poor old Romeo and the town is up in arms about it. I think any of those wolf loving people who tried to feed or interact with this thing is as equally responsible for his death as the person who pulled the trigger and who they now vilify, but they don't understand this, wolves are cuddly creatures, just like their own dogs, right??! Yikes...

:?

 

[eagle55]

All government biologist are "trained to think a certain way" and that is generally a "propoganist" view point in the general publics view.

This is not a personal attack on you BearBio but a description of how the taxpayers view government paid biologist.

John

I respectfully disagree. I will however say that biologist are human and as such not immune to the effects of dogma, political pressure, pear pressure, academic pressure etc. But to make a blanket statement that "All" biologist are anything is just that, a blanket statement. Science in itself, the method is pure. What taints it is usually political in nature.

 

[Adobe Wells]

I have set up a Springfield XD Tactical with a 460 Rowland barrel for my "trail" gun. Lots of power if needed. Or, I can use the 45 acp barrel if wanted.

 

[FORGIVEN]

I agree with McP.........wheelgun.

S&W .357 Airlite 18oz. would be one option.

 

[cas6969]

Yeah... I have a S&W 325PD that is a joy to wear because you can really forget it's there. One of the Scandium S&W is the way to go. They are quite spendy, but worth it for what you're talking about.

 

[jpickar]

eagle55

I am not talking about science. I'm talking about "government biologist".

But You are correct about me making a blanket statement about "government biologist". It is a sad fact when the majority of government biologist make the few good honest ones look bad. You are correct in that respect.

But it is sort of like being a politician or a lawyer isn't it?

John

 

[MMichaelAK]

eagle55

I am not talking about science. I'm talking about "government biologist".

But You are correct about me making a blanket statement about "government biologist". It is a sad fact when the majority of government biologist make the few good honest ones look bad. You are correct in that respect.

But it is sort of like being a politician or a lawyer isn't it?

John

jpickar, its like everything else. Not just lawyers or used car salesmen or Montanans. All it takes is one and the rest are tainted in the minds of some. Gotta take each on a case by case basis.
You dont like sheep do you?

Wheelgun in .357 magnum loaded with 180 grain hardcast or 158's depending on need.

 

[jpickar]

MMichaelAK,

Generally that is what I do is case by case, but with politicians, lawyers and Goverment biologists a general statement is a safe bet.

If you don't agree, fine no sweat off my back. I'm just speaking from experience.

By the way I haven't given my opinion on a gun. I live in Grizzly country. I carry a SP101 if I am fairly confident that I won't run into moose, grizz. But if I think the odds are that I could I carry my S&W 629, 44 mag. If I feel that an incounter is probable I take my Rem 870 with slugs and buckshot.

Double action, no problems, more powerful. I will take more power over more ammo anyday.

John