Ruger Vacquero vs US Firearms

[gak]

I agree when comparing 1200 to 1200 that my vote goes to the Colt. But as a few posters have pointed out--and Dav idson's "instant quotes" for local retailers indicates--the USFA's Colt-equivqlent (polished blue/CCH) SAs can be had for much less right now--$750 in some locales, $775 in my neck 'o. Then it becomes more interesting. Now you have a shooter and a looker/fondler for $350-400 less, and I have a hard time criticizing that choice. I didn't specifically compare the Pre War, and my guess is that its "real world" price is closer to the Colt..and while I recognize that model's appeal and would like one, if there is a choice of only one at that point, to me it's still--and has been--the Colt. Back to the RNV, the functional choice there approx $ for $ is vs the Rodeo. I have both. I got the Rodeo primarily as an antiquing project; I have the RNV as a trail/camp gun--though the shorter barreled (and bigger bored) Rodeo is taking over on the trail. Like 'em both (and the Colt) for what they are.

 

[CraigC]

If your looking for a six gun that will be handed down after a life time of use, buy the Vaquero. If you want something to put up and collect and not shoot buy a USFA

This statement makes no sense to me. There is absolutely no reason to consider a USFA a safe queen unless that's just what blows your skirt up. I buy mine to use as most folks do. The notion that only a Ruger will survive a lifetime of use is silly and a direct result of Ruger's marketing.

But I cannot see buying a USFA for $1250. When you can buy a real Colt for around $1200. Do you folks really like the USFA Clones better than a real Colt?

Yes! Let's get a few things straight first, the USFA model that is the closest equivalent to a 3rd generation Colt is their standard model and it retails for $975. Which translates to a $750-$800 street price, not $1250. Up until recently, the standard USFA SAA was a far better sixgun in every way than any 3rd generation Colt. In the last couple years Colt has made great strides in improving their product and the new guns are excellent. Though there are still distinct differences. The $1200 USFA is the premium Pre-War model that is built just as the old Colts were, only better. It features a color case hardened hammer and authentic carbona bluing that has not been commercially available since before WWII. These guns are head and shoulders above any 3rd generation Colt SAA. The "real Colt" isn't even a real Colt anymore. The 3rd generation guns are as far from the "real thing" as any replica. They just happen to have that Colt pony on the side. That might've meant something when they were the only premium SAA on the market but these days you can buy better guns for less money.

I had rather buy a Uberti for $429 and replace all the springs and have a decent tuned shooter, then pay $1250 for a USFA and put it in the safe for a keepsake.

I don't buy any guns to stick in the safe as a "keepsake". All my guns get used, no matter what they cost. If I can't use them and enjoy them, I'm wasting my money. So on that point, we are in agreement....sort of.

 

[Hobie]

I held a US Firearms the other day in Cabelas. Man is that gun sweet, it was built like a Swiss watch. Other than price, is there any way a Ruger Vacq trumps a US Firearms SA?

Price. I have both. I like both. They are a bit different in ways some see (perhaps rationalize) as better. In truth the only functional difference is price.

 

[Sugar River]

+1 Craig. You hit the nail dead square.
The standard USFA SAA is more gun for less money. Or you can get them to make about anything you want if $ is no object.

I talked at length with Donnelly at '99 SHOt in Atlanta. The most casual observer could tell that he LOVES what he's doing. Give me a quality product built by one of us, over some bastardized "name" gun from a company owned by Lord-knows-who any day of the week.

BTW, I own a Colt SAA, first year 2nd Gen. production. Whole different kettle of fish.

Pete

 

[dakota1911]

For me it would be disposable income. If I had enough money for the USFA, I would probably buy both and use the Ruger for a "truck gun" or something. Since I am on a budget, then Ruger.

 

[targetshootr]

I've got 2 Rodeos and lots of Rugers but no new Vaquero. It's hard to compare since they're made so differently. The leaf springs in SAA clones break much more often than Ruger coil springs. Otoh, I like the four-click actions of old model guns. In the end, apples and oranges to me since prices aren't all that different. USFAs are not Colt clones btw, since the cylinders are slightly wider and no major parts will interchange... that I know of.

 

[BIgMuddy]

what Craig said +1

I have a USFA 7 1/2" 38 w.c.f. that has easily had over 50k rounds through it with zero problems. Not hardly a "safe queen" now is it? This one is the most accurate fixed sight revolver I own.

I like Rugers too, but they WILL break. It amazes me how some think that the SAA style guns are so fragile.

I can't add anything that has not been said when comparing USFA's to Colts except that a Colt will most always re-sell for more $$$.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Now the question is which caliber, 45, 44 SPL or 44-40 and why?.


BTW how available is 44-40 ammo? Does anyone sell it in a self defense platform?

Howdy

I load and shoot a lot of 44-40. Mostly I load it with Black Powder, but sometimes I load it with Unique. I only shoot it in rifles, a couple of which are over 100 years old. And yes, I am a hysterically accurate history buff, which is why I like the cartridge. Besides, my 100 year old rifles were made before 44 Sp or 44 Mag was invented.

No, I am not aware of anybody loading 44-40 for a 'self defense platform'. The great majority of 44-40 today is loaded for the Cowboy Action Shooting market. In fact, the cartridge was just about dead until CAS revived it. Now it is loaded by several manufacturers, but like I said, I am not aware of anybody loading it hot. SAAMI Max pressure for 44-40 is 13,000 CUP, which is very similar to the Max SAAMI pressure of 45 Colt. It is kept purposely low because of the large number of old guns still out there that would blow up with a heavy load. The 'original model' Vaquero is the only revolver that I am aware of that could take heavy loads in 44-40 if they were available. Other than that gun, every other revolver that I am aware of that is manufactured today for 44-40 is a replica of a 19th Century revolver and will not survive heavy loads. And the New Vaquero is not chambered for 44-40, only the 'original model' Vaquero was.

P.S. Remington used to load some 'High Velocity' ammo in 44-40 but I don't see it in their current online catalog. That stuff was only for very strong rifles, like a Winchester Model 1892, it was probably not very good for revolvers.

 

[ChuckS1]

Like I said before, I have a USFA Pre-War in .45 Colt and it's one of my nicest guns. I didn't pay $1200 for mine, but even if I did, it would still be my shooter for the .45 Colt. I'm a firm believer that guns are made to be shot and don't have any that are safe queens. If I did, I certainly would be shooting my $1800 Les Baer bullseye .45 or my O/U shotguns.

I don't own any Colt SAAs, but I'd be hard pressed to think that, other than the name, the 3d generation Colt is any better than that USFA Pre-War. If Colts were that good, I'd have bought a Colt Series 80 to have converted to a custom bullseye gun; instead, I opted for a Les Baer, one of the best off-the-shelf bullseye guns out there. Same basic design as the Colt, better quality of build. Now, if I could have found a decent Colt pre-70 Series National Match, I probably would have gone for that instead and still wold have had to pay $1000 to get it competition-ready. That holds true for the USFA.

Okay, Colt fanboys, flame away!

 

[Allen207]

Are the USFA .45 colts ok to shoot the higher pressure loads through? Or should one stick with standard pressure? Also, have they had any issues with the cylinder throat diameter problems that seem to plague some of the other brands?

They sure look nice.

 

[CraigC]

Are the USFA .45 colts ok to shoot the higher pressure loads through? Or should one stick with standard pressure? Also, have they had any issues with the cylinder throat diameter problems that seem to plague some of the other brands?

They sure look nice.

Not "Ruger-only" loads. They're safe to about 21-22,000psi, as are post-war Colt's and Ruger New Vaqueros. It'll get you 1050-1100fps with standard weight cast bullets. Load data comes from Dave Scovill and Brian Pearce.

 

[Bucks Owin]

If your looking for a six gun that will be handed down after a life time of use, buy the Vaquero. If you want something to put up and collect and not shoot buy a USFA

This statement makes no sense to me. There is absolutely no reason to consider a USFA a safe queen unless that's just what blows your skirt up. I buy mine to use as most folks do. The notion that only a Ruger will survive a lifetime of use is silly and a direct result of Ruger's marketing.

Don't know that "Ruger's marketing" is what causes spring breakage in a SAA design sixgun but Ruger did eliminate the problem. I've never heard of a NM Blackhawk breaking ANYTHING. I suppose one "could" break out a hammer notch in the OM if you tried hard enough or dropped one on the hammer. (5 beans in the wheel!).....JMO, Dennis (BTW, I'm not meaning to imply that the USFA is a "safe queen", they are beautiful guns and I'd shoot the heck out of one if I had one. I WOULD look for a used "Field Grade" FA though if I had $1200 to spend. Hopefully in .500 WE! But that's just me..)

 

[DGW1949]

Are the USFA .45 colts ok to shoot the higher pressure loads through? Or should one stick with standard pressure? Also, have they had any issues with the cylinder throat diameter problems that seem to plague some of the other brands?

They sure look nice.

Ammo used in any .45-SAA should be kept real-close to the standard service-load pressure levels. Reason is, there simply aint enough cylinder strength there to allow for much else.

Far as the "They sure look real nice" goes.... so do most all SAA's.
I hear a lot about this or that gun's "superior fit and finish" (especialy when one is talking about a Colt). Thing is though.....in my mind what it comes down to is just what your last post suggest.....meaning.....is the dern thing in-spec, as far as bore size, throat size, and timing?....'cause if it aint, there aint enough "perty" in the world to sway me into buying a new gun that is so far outa whack in them areas that a bit of tinkering and/or a reamer won't fix it.

Now, it aint my place to tell the next guy how to spend his money, but for me and mine.... If "which 45LC" is the subject, and if I'm going to shoot it instead of just look at it, I'll take a Ruger or a Uberti over a Colt any day. And FWIW, that comes from my own personal experiences with having owned all three.

Can't say about the USFA though, because I've never owned one, nor had the occassion to examine/measure one closely.
It could be that they are the cat's meyow.....dunno.

DGW

 

[CraigC]

Don't know that "Ruger's marketing" is what causes spring breakage in a SAA design sixgun...

Nor do I but I do know that there is a whole generation of shooters who have never fired, let alone owned, a traditional leaf sprung single action who believe they are as fragile as eggs. Due in no small part to Ruger's marketing and the subsequent repitition as if it were fact by folks who really never bothered to found out for themselves. Goes hand in hand with the common misconception that just because it's a Ruger, it's stronger than anything else. Something we ALWAYS get into when it comes to loading the .45Colt New Vaquero over SAAMI specs. Fact is, any man-made device can malfunction and fail, from staplers to Space Shuttles. Ruger is no exception.

My latest Ruger, a stainless New Bearcat, is at Ruger as we speak awaiting scrapping. Why? A manufacturing defect. Do I hold it against Ruger? Not really. They are what they are and I accept that. For my money, when it comes to a fixed sight SAA, I'd rather spend a little more on USFA's precisely built work of art (for you Joe!) than Ruger's New Vaquero. Beauty is not only skin deep. These new USFA's are built like a fine watch and the prices reflects that. You're not just paying for a pretty face.

 

[buckeyeshooter]

I own a pair of vaqueros and they shoot fine. I have thought of purchasing a colt or USFA. My understanding is the USFA's are made on old Colt machinery? I have wondered which would be better quality as niether is readliy seen im my market. Also, would a set of colt grips fit a USFA with no or minimal alterations? I;m thinking yes, but do not know absolutely.

 

[CraigC]

My understanding is the USFA's are made on old Colt machinery?

No, they used to be in the old Colt factory but have sinced moved to a new facitility with state of the art CNC machinery. Their precision-built sixguns are second only to Freedom Arms.

There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to SAA grip interchangeability. They will almost always need at least a little bit of fitting.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Not "Ruger-only" loads. They're safe to about 21-22,000psi, as are post-war Colt's and Ruger New Vaqueros. It'll get you 1050-1100fps with standard weight cast bullets. Load data comes from Dave Scovill and Brian Pearce.

I dunno where this info is coming from, but personally I would not put any ammo through any type of conventional single action revolver (Colt SAA, USFA, Uberti, etc) that exceeds the SAAMI Max pressure for 45 Colt of 14,000 psi.

I own a pair of vaqueros and they shoot fine. I have thought of purchasing a colt or USFA. My understanding is the USFA's are made on old Colt machinery?

No, that is incorrect, although I keep hearing it repeated all the time. At one point USFA was renting space in the old Colt factory under the blue dome (which was not occupied by Colt at that time either) in Hartford, but they moved out a number of years ago into a modern facility filled with new CNC equipment. At one point they were also assembling guns from Italian made parts, but that was quite a while ago, they no longer are importing parts but make just about everything under their own roof now.

 

[CraigC]

Not "Ruger-only" loads. They're safe to about 21-22,000psi, as are post-war Colt's and Ruger New Vaqueros. It'll get you 1050-1100fps with standard weight cast bullets. Load data comes from Dave Scovill and Brian Pearce.

I dunno where this info is coming from....

Umm, the "where" is in the post you quoted.

 

[DGW1949]

Far as action strength....
Both OM and NM Ruger SA's have much wider sears/hammer notches than the various SAA's....except for the OM "safety conversion" guns, which by design, nessesitated those areas to be thinner.

The cylinder latch (AKA bolt) on the ruger is thinner than on a SAA, but due to it's design, the Ruger latch is way-less prone to failure. In fact, I've seen Ruger latches wear out, but never seen one fail.

Springs?....not so much difference there.
A well made leaf-spring will wear about as long as any other part in the guts. The key words here being "well made". Some of them aint so well made... but I've yet to break a Wolff, or S&W leaf-spring in any revolver that I own.
If leafs bothers ya though, you can also note that;
Uberti long-ago began using a coil hand spring, which is captured in the frame via small retainer screw...a feature that Ruger would have done well to utilize but did not.
There are piano-wire type bolt/tigger springs available these days for virtualy any SAA that you care to name. And coil hammer-spring conversions for some of them.

Transfer bar ingition VS a hammer mounted firing pin VS the OM Ruger system?....to me, that is a toss up. The SAA design is certainly simpler, but either of the three can break something. I guess it depends on how many rounds you want to safely carry in your gun...and if you're prone to dry-firing a 6-gun a lot, which is something that an SAA will not tolerate nearly as well as will any of the Ruger SA's.

Then there's long-term maintenance to consider. Meaning that if you shoot these things a lot, at some point you'll need spare parts to be avialable, and affordable. High-dollar guns are made up from high dollar parts. And some gun makers don't furnish OEM parts to us mere mortals.
That, and some "clones" are terrably hard to find parts for.

Some guns are easier to tinker-on (or repair) than others.
A case in point is if/when it's time to address end-shake issues. Doing a proper repair on a Ruger requires a perty-high skill level, AND access to some fairly expensive equipment. On the the other hand, it's real simple to pull the cylinder bushing out of an SAA, add a shim and reinstall it....presto.... the end-shake problem is gone.
On the other hand, I don't know of an easier 6-gun to disassemble and get back together than an OM Ruger, nor of one that needs less hand-fitting than a NM Ruger. Most any repair on either of those are well within the skill level of most folks....even me. That aint to say that "fixing" an SAA is hard, but that design does require a bit more hand-fitting than Rugers normaly do.

That's all I know about that.

DGW