I have a new 581 series Mini 30 that shoots the first round of a five shot group about 5 inches low and to the left of the next 4 rounds. The last four group in about a 3 to 4 inches. The flier usually creates an 8 to 9 inch group. I have looked for an answer to this problem with no luck. I have seen suggestions that would likely help overall accuracy, but nothing that addresses the first round flier. Any suggestions?
Ruger Mini 30 first shot flier
- Thread starter rug416t
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M'BOGO
Buckeye
Have heard that can be a general problem with autoloaders. No help, just sayin
I have heard that too M'BOGO. I have just never seen it until I got this one. I have had autos from a Reington Model 8 to a Browning Auto and a bunch in between and never have I had one that shot as bad as this one does.
I thought that Ruger had supposedly fixed the problems with accuracy on these newer rifles, but I guess I was wrong. Hope someone has a solution. It wouldn't be so bad if it was the last round in the magazine that was a flier, but the first shot being 5 or 6 inches out is a deal breaker to me.
I thought that Ruger had supposedly fixed the problems with accuracy on these newer rifles, but I guess I was wrong. Hope someone has a solution. It wouldn't be so bad if it was the last round in the magazine that was a flier, but the first shot being 5 or 6 inches out is a deal breaker to me.
M'BOGO
Buckeye
Understandable.
BTW welcome!
Never played with the self loading Ruger rifles. My understanding is the accuracy with the 7.62X39 is more a result of the ammo, overall (not just the Ruger's). What type of ammo are you using? Have you slugged the bore? Some like .308 slugs, as opposed to the .311 slugs..
BTW welcome!
Never played with the self loading Ruger rifles. My understanding is the accuracy with the 7.62X39 is more a result of the ammo, overall (not just the Ruger's). What type of ammo are you using? Have you slugged the bore? Some like .308 slugs, as opposed to the .311 slugs..
Thanks for the welcome! I've been lurking off and on for a while and I guess this Mini 30 has got me frustrated enough to pull out the keyboard. I've owned Ruger rifles since the early 70's and never really had much of any kind of problem that wasn't easily solved. It is looking like this one is going to take some work.
I'm shooting Remington ammo. Something is happening with the first round off the top of the magazine that is way different from all the others. I am going to try a different magazine to see if that makes a difference. I have been using the five shot mag the came with the rifle, but I think I will give a 20 shot mag a try and maybe not load it completely.
I found some other posts about bedding the action, cryo treating the barrel, putting buffers on the gas block, lapping the barrel, accustruts, and a ton of other stuff just to get 2 inch groups if I'm lucky. Hard to imagine that a rifle that has been around as long as the Mini's have could still be having all these problems.
I'm shooting Remington ammo. Something is happening with the first round off the top of the magazine that is way different from all the others. I am going to try a different magazine to see if that makes a difference. I have been using the five shot mag the came with the rifle, but I think I will give a 20 shot mag a try and maybe not load it completely.
I found some other posts about bedding the action, cryo treating the barrel, putting buffers on the gas block, lapping the barrel, accustruts, and a ton of other stuff just to get 2 inch groups if I'm lucky. Hard to imagine that a rifle that has been around as long as the Mini's have could still be having all these problems.
M'BOGO
Buckeye
Well, check the slug vs. the barrel size? Wish I could be a real help with this. Your's isn't the first semi-auto with the first shot flier though.
Mike Mulligan
Single-Sixer
If I recall correctly, a first shot flier from a semi-auto is sometimes attributed to the difference in the way the bolt is cycled to chamber the first round as opposed to the following rounds. The idea is that when you manually draw the bolt back and then let it forward it has a different "energy" than when operated by (in the case of a mini) the gas system and the first round is not chambered to the same degree as the following ones. Another issue could be that the first round in the full magazine is not positioned to feed well (but not bad enough to cause a failure to feed/fire). Also, it could be cold barrel vs warm barrel (which I experience in my match rifle) change of impact. You certainly have some range time/ shooting ahead to sort it out- might be a good thing! :wink:
Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
Is this the first group of the day with a cold clean barrel or is this any first shot from the magazine after a reasonable cool-down period? If you are talking about the first clean barrel shot it is not unusual. Some rifles require 1 or 2 fouling shots before they will group.
Also as a barrel heats-up some rifles will string shots, especially Rugers with a barrel band. I leave the barrel band almost loose and make sure the stock screw is tight and the receiver is snug in the stock. 8) 8)
Also as a barrel heats-up some rifles will string shots, especially Rugers with a barrel band. I leave the barrel band almost loose and make sure the stock screw is tight and the receiver is snug in the stock. 8) 8)
This is the first shot out of the magazine. Doesn't seem to matter if it is the first shot of the day or if I just put 20 through it. The first shot is going to be 5 or 6 inches (has been as far as 9) away from the closest hole in the main group which will vary in size from 2 to 4 inches.
Looks like I have a lot of work ahead of me trying different things. I guess the range time will be good and it is as good a way as any to get good brass. I do get nice tight groups with the brass.
Something is going to have to eventually give on this problem. I bought this rifle to hunt with and shooting a round or two out of the stand in the morning to get it settled in just won't cut it. Shooting gallon bean cans at 25 yards isn't what I like to do either and that is about what it is suited for now.
Thanks for the suggestions guys! If I hit on the magic cure, I'll post it, but I suspect that the problems with this rifle are going to take a host of cures that all make it a little better.
Looks like I have a lot of work ahead of me trying different things. I guess the range time will be good and it is as good a way as any to get good brass. I do get nice tight groups with the brass.
Something is going to have to eventually give on this problem. I bought this rifle to hunt with and shooting a round or two out of the stand in the morning to get it settled in just won't cut it. Shooting gallon bean cans at 25 yards isn't what I like to do either and that is about what it is suited for now.
Thanks for the suggestions guys! If I hit on the magic cure, I'll post it, but I suspect that the problems with this rifle are going to take a host of cures that all make it a little better.
I've got a Kimber that will not feed the first round from a fully loaded mag. So I leave one out and it feeds just fine.
Does your Mini group well as a single shot?
Do you put one in the pipe and then insert a loaded full mag?
If I read what you said, You have only used one mag and one brand of ammo.
Does your Mini group well as a single shot?
Do you put one in the pipe and then insert a loaded full mag?
If I read what you said, You have only used one mag and one brand of ammo.
First-off, ensure that your gun's reciever is bedded proper and that the grigger guard is providing enough clamping-force to pull the reciever down into the stock tight enough. One of the things that I've found to be problomatic with Ruger's bedding system is that the reciever legs are often too "sloppy" (fore and aft) where they sit-down into those metal sides that attach to the stock. If that is tyhe case with yours, then no amount of clamping-force by the trigger gaurd is going to prevent the reciever from moving in the stock with recoil. Only a proper bedding job will fix that.
Stuff to try for your specific problem;
Try loading one-less round than usual so's the first round "out" is coming from the "other" side of the mag than usual.
Try a different mag.
Don't start with a squeaky-clean barrel.
Often, even a true match gun is more consistant after a couple of "fouling shots".
If Ruger is still using a clamp-on handguard, pull the thing off and see what happens without it.
If all of that fails, clean the chamber and bore untill it looks brand-new, pull the guts out of the bolt, and have a gunsmith do a headspace check....preferably with a set of progressive gauges.
All the above assumes that the ammo you are using is right for the bore of your gun, that it's headspace distance is right for your gun's chamber, AND that it is capable of shooting into whatever MOA you are striving for. In my experience, various 7.62X39 factory ammo all has one or more problems as far as being "right" for this or that Mini-30.
As I recall, Remington uses a .310-.311 bullet. What is the bore size of your Ruger?.....Just sayin'.
Way back when, I did quite a bit of "development work" on a half-dozen Mini-30's. Except for consistently-bad bedding, seldom did accuracy improvements come from a single problem. Mostly it was the "little things" that added up.
Hope something here helps.
DGW
Stuff to try for your specific problem;
Try loading one-less round than usual so's the first round "out" is coming from the "other" side of the mag than usual.
Try a different mag.
Don't start with a squeaky-clean barrel.
Often, even a true match gun is more consistant after a couple of "fouling shots".
If Ruger is still using a clamp-on handguard, pull the thing off and see what happens without it.
If all of that fails, clean the chamber and bore untill it looks brand-new, pull the guts out of the bolt, and have a gunsmith do a headspace check....preferably with a set of progressive gauges.
All the above assumes that the ammo you are using is right for the bore of your gun, that it's headspace distance is right for your gun's chamber, AND that it is capable of shooting into whatever MOA you are striving for. In my experience, various 7.62X39 factory ammo all has one or more problems as far as being "right" for this or that Mini-30.
As I recall, Remington uses a .310-.311 bullet. What is the bore size of your Ruger?.....Just sayin'.
Way back when, I did quite a bit of "development work" on a half-dozen Mini-30's. Except for consistently-bad bedding, seldom did accuracy improvements come from a single problem. Mostly it was the "little things" that added up.
Hope something here helps.
DGW
MOUNTAIN WILLIAM
Blackhawk
Before you try swapping mags around try this. Buy a different brand of ammo and shoot a group using the same mag as before. Repeat the process but have a buddy shoot it this time.
Are there any differences, similarities? Your gun just may not like the ammo that you're using now.
Let us know what happens.
Are there any differences, similarities? Your gun just may not like the ammo that you're using now.
Let us know what happens.
I have tried two 5 shot mags. The first would fail to feed the last round every time. I switched mags and the second functioned fine. The rifle still threw the first round 5 to 6 inches out. I will try several different ways of loading the first round this week as well as shooting with only 4 rounds in the mag.
I have gotten fairly consistent groups with the balance of the Magazine. That makes me think that the Remington ammo is probably good in this rifle. It might not be the most accurate ammo for this rifle, but I don't think it is causing the "first shot flier". If I was getting fliers with any of the balance of the rounds in the magazine, I might suspect the ammo, but so far the only flier is the first shot. One group I shot had the one flier that was the first shot from the magazine and the balance of the rounds were nearly touching. That makes me think the rifle wants to shoot well.
I am having the action bedded this week and will see what that does. It seems to have a lot of left and right movement prior to clamping it in with the trigger guard. I will also slug the bore to check the diameter.
Again thanks for the advice! It will take me a while to get through all the things I need to try and I suspect that many will make improvements in the rifles accuracy. If I can get groups that are with in 2 to 3 inches at 100 yards, I will be good to go and I don't think that is asking to much of this rifle.
I have gotten fairly consistent groups with the balance of the Magazine. That makes me think that the Remington ammo is probably good in this rifle. It might not be the most accurate ammo for this rifle, but I don't think it is causing the "first shot flier". If I was getting fliers with any of the balance of the rounds in the magazine, I might suspect the ammo, but so far the only flier is the first shot. One group I shot had the one flier that was the first shot from the magazine and the balance of the rounds were nearly touching. That makes me think the rifle wants to shoot well.
I am having the action bedded this week and will see what that does. It seems to have a lot of left and right movement prior to clamping it in with the trigger guard. I will also slug the bore to check the diameter.
Again thanks for the advice! It will take me a while to get through all the things I need to try and I suspect that many will make improvements in the rifles accuracy. If I can get groups that are with in 2 to 3 inches at 100 yards, I will be good to go and I don't think that is asking to much of this rifle.
Tommy Kelly
Buckeye
something to check. This may sound like it's totally out in left field but My son had a 700 remington with the same problem. He had the same problem the first shot was way off then after the first shot it would group super small groups for the rest of the day. we are talking about 1/4 to 1/2" groups at 100 yds. He missed several deer with this gun and almost lost faith in the gun. Then one day he brought the gun in and handed it to me. When I took the gun I felt the barrel move in the forearm. We took the action out of the stock and found a ridge left in the barrel channel of the stock. We sanded it out and now the rifle shoots great every shot. What was happening was carrying the rifle out to shoot with it laying in the passenger seat the barrel would get on one side of the ridge and hang there after the first shot it would release then shoot fine until you layed it on the seat again then it would hang again. A simple fix that was driving us crazy until we found it.
I have tried a few things on the Mini 30 and I have seen some improvement. I put a strut on the barrel and it had no effect at all in the groups. I have glass bedded the action and shimmed the fore end of the stock to the gas block. The secondary group has dropped with the bedding from 4 to 5 inch groups to repeatable 1.25 inch to 1.5 inch groups. I can live with that!
The first shot out of the rifle is still 4 to 6 inches out of the secondary group though and that is a deal killer for me. I am going to make a new gas block bushing tomorrow with a much smaller port. I think that taking a little of the violence out of this action can only help things. I shouldn't have to walk as far to get my empties anyway.
The first shot out of the rifle is still 4 to 6 inches out of the secondary group though and that is a deal killer for me. I am going to make a new gas block bushing tomorrow with a much smaller port. I think that taking a little of the violence out of this action can only help things. I shouldn't have to walk as far to get my empties anyway.
I made the new gas block bushing and it really slowed the brass down. They are dropping a couple of feet from me and stay on the bench most of the time. The original bushing had a port that was .097 inches in diameter. I started with a .045 diameter hole and the rifle would not function at all. I opened it up to .052 and it was starting to operate but fired case wasn't clearing the action. I opened it to .062 and it works great.
That first round is still 4 to 5 inches away from the group (which is getting small with all the stuff I've done to the rifle) and it is beginning to really tic me off.
That first round is still 4 to 5 inches away from the group (which is getting small with all the stuff I've done to the rifle) and it is beginning to really tic me off.
rug416t said:
If you don't mind another suggestion;
I'd stop right there and go home. Don't clean the gun, change ammo, change magazines, or do anything different.....then return to the same range, at the same time of day as before, and re-test again.
If you do all that and still get a first round flier, I'd have to believe that it is due to a cold barrel.....and if that is the case, there aint going to be a dern thing you can do about it as long as you retain that particular barrel aside from trying various pressure-points within the barrel channel.....or go to a barrel that has a different contour.
DGW
All suggestions are appreciated and changing the barrel is not out of the question at all. I just hope I don't have to resort to that additional expense.
It throws the first round out whether the barrel is hot or cold. Never seems to vary. If it is the first shot of the day or I just put 20 rounds through it. The first round I chamber by hand is going to be a flier. It makes me think that there is something different about the way the action is locked up with a manually chambered round as opposed to a round that is automatically chambered after firing.
It throws the first round out whether the barrel is hot or cold. Never seems to vary. If it is the first shot of the day or I just put 20 rounds through it. The first round I chamber by hand is going to be a flier. It makes me think that there is something different about the way the action is locked up with a manually chambered round as opposed to a round that is automatically chambered after firing.
OK, discounting the "cold barrel" theory.....let's assume that you are right about something going on with the manual chambering of that first round.
If that is the case, the next order of business would be to find out exactly why your particular gun shows a more than normal discrepency in POI when manualy chambering a round. Me thinks that you'll find that the answer "somewhere" within your rifle's chamber-specs (which also includes the throat). Any gunsmith worth his salt can do a chamber casting for you, and do a precise headspace check. A dye-check of the rifle's lug contact aint a bad idea either.
"Something" is allowing the cartridge too much wiggle-room inside the chamber. Otherwise, there wouldn't be much difference in "how" the cartridge ended-up in there, eh?
DGW
If that is the case, the next order of business would be to find out exactly why your particular gun shows a more than normal discrepency in POI when manualy chambering a round. Me thinks that you'll find that the answer "somewhere" within your rifle's chamber-specs (which also includes the throat). Any gunsmith worth his salt can do a chamber casting for you, and do a precise headspace check. A dye-check of the rifle's lug contact aint a bad idea either.
"Something" is allowing the cartridge too much wiggle-room inside the chamber. Otherwise, there wouldn't be much difference in "how" the cartridge ended-up in there, eh?
DGW
