johnhb2
Single-Sixer
I have purchased a 1987 new model blackhawk that says .45 caliber. I read about 45 acp or 45 long colt, etc. What exactly is the cartridge this gun shoots. Is any 45 acceptable. No laughter please. Thanks, John
ruger blackhawk stupid question
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nvbirdman
Blackhawk
The 45 Blackhawks were made to chamber a 45colt and some came with an extra cylinder chambered for 45acp.
If you take the cylinder out and look down the chamber you will see a very small ridge. If the ridge is about in the middle (very unlikely) the gun is chambered for acp, If the ridge is almost all the way to the front it is chambered for 45colt.
BTW, I don't consider that a stupid question.
If you take the cylinder out and look down the chamber you will see a very small ridge. If the ridge is about in the middle (very unlikely) the gun is chambered for acp, If the ridge is almost all the way to the front it is chambered for 45colt.
BTW, I don't consider that a stupid question.
More than likely .45 Colt. Check as nvbirdman suggested to make sure as this may have been a convertible with a missing .45 Colt cylinder . Stranger things have happened! Oh, the cylinder will not accept both either ... it is one or the other 
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Rainman
Blackhawk
There are no dumb questions on this site. That's why I like it so much- lots of helpful folks willing to share information.
If you'll watch the classifieds on this forum, you'll be able to find a companion ACP cylinder should you want one. It might be a "drop-in" fit or require a minor amount of gunsmith fitting / timing to work just right.
Dan (in Union Co.)
If you'll watch the classifieds on this forum, you'll be able to find a companion ACP cylinder should you want one. It might be a "drop-in" fit or require a minor amount of gunsmith fitting / timing to work just right.
Dan (in Union Co.)
If a 45 acp cylinder can be found that could possibly just drop in or work with some gunsmithing, how is it different from the 45 colt cylinder. In other words what manufacturing difference is there that would still allow it to possibly "just drop in". Is it just adjusting the ridge position inside the cylinder. Thanks again, John
The .45 Colt is a rimmed cartridge.... it drops into the cylinder until the rim at the rear of the cartridge stops it. The .45 ACP is much shorter than the .45 Colt, and is rimless... it drops into the cylinder until the leading edge of the brass case hits the ridge in the cylinder.
Those are the chamber differences. The external dimensions of the cylinder (how it fits into trhe frame, how the pawl matches up, etc.) are the concerns for fitting a ctlinder to the revolver.
Those are the chamber differences. The external dimensions of the cylinder (how it fits into trhe frame, how the pawl matches up, etc.) are the concerns for fitting a ctlinder to the revolver.
Driftwood Johnson
Blackhawk
Howdy
Perhaps a few photos will help.
This photo is of the 45 ACP cylinder and 45 Colt cylinder that came with my Blackhawk convertible. The easiest way to tell the cylinders apart is by that circular groove running around the back of the ACP cylinder. I dunno if current Ruger 45 ACP cylinders have that groove, but they did in 1975 when I bought my Blackhawk.
Notice there is a cartridge chambered in each cylinder and also notice the cartridges below each cylinder. The longer cartridge on the right is the 45 Colt cartridge, on the left is the 45 ACP cartridge. As has been said, the 45 Colt cartridge is a rimmed cartridge. It is a very old design, first manufactured in 1873. Like most revolver cartridges of its day, it depends on its rim to seat the cartridge and prevent it from falling forward through the hole. The 45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) cartridge was developed around 1905. It is what is called a rimless cartridge. That big groove around the cartridge does not form a rim, that is an extractor groove. This cartridge was developed for semi-automatic pistols. Semi-autos usually stack the cartridges vertically in a magazine. If they have a rim, they will stack unevenly, so most, not all, semi-auto pistol cartridges have no rim, so they will stack up evenly in the magazine.
Since there is no rim, there has to be a way to seat the cartridge in the chamber so it will not fall through. Running around the inside of the chamber is a shoulder. This is actually the defining feature between the chamber and the chamber throat at the front of the cylinder. The chamber throat is the same diameter as the bullet, the rest of the chamber is slightly wider, the same diameter as the cartridge case. Remember, with most modern cartridges, the bullet is narrower than the cartridge case, because it slides inside the case. So the 45 ACP chamber is designed with a 90 degree shoulder that gives the front end of the case (the mouth) something square to butt up against. This is also the case with chambers in semi-automatic pistols. If you peek inside the chamber of the 45 Colt cylinder, the shoulder will be much further forward than in the 45 ACP cylinder because the case is so much longer. In addition, while the 45 ACP shoulder is at a right angle for the case mouth to seat against, the 45 Colt shoulder is sloped, allowing some clearance for the mouth of the case. This clearance is needed so there is not interference when the round is chambered, which could keep the round from seating fully.
Notice how the 45 ACP case sits flush with the rear of its cylinder, while the 45 Colt rim sits proud of the rear of its cylinder. If you look very carefully, the 45 ACP cylinder is about 1/16" longer than the 45 Colt cylinder. That is why the circular groove is there. The groove is a relief cut to protect the firing pin. Without the groove, the pin could be damaged if the cylinder was turned while the firing pin was pressed forward. The relief cut gives the pin some clearance.
Here is a photo of the 45 Colt cylinder in place with six rounds in the revolver. Notice how you can see the rims.
Here is the 45 APC cylinder in place in the same gun. You cannot tell looking here if there are cartridges in it or not because the cylinder is longer and completely covers the rear of the cartridges. And that much narrower space at the rear is why the firing pin needs clearance in the 45 ACP cylinder
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As to why a cylinder may not just drop in, there are tiny differences in dimensions that creep into any revolver while it is being assembled. These differences are called manufacturing tolerances. One part may be a teeny bit larger than another part. Despite all the modern equipment used to make guns like these, tiny differences do occur. Most important with revolvers is the end of the barrel does not always extend the exact same amount into the area where the cylinder sits. So one cylinder may simply not fit into the space, the barrel may extend in too far for it. There are also issues of timing that may differ from gun to gun. For these reasons, cylinders are usually fitted specifically to the gun they go into at the factory. If I were to flip those two cylinders over you would see the last three digits of this gun's serial number engraved on them. That shows they were fitted at the factory to this gun.
With an after market cylinder, sometimes you get lucky and another cylinder will drop right in and function correctly, sometimes not. If another cylinder does drop in and function properly, it is dumb luck.
Perhaps a few photos will help.
This photo is of the 45 ACP cylinder and 45 Colt cylinder that came with my Blackhawk convertible. The easiest way to tell the cylinders apart is by that circular groove running around the back of the ACP cylinder. I dunno if current Ruger 45 ACP cylinders have that groove, but they did in 1975 when I bought my Blackhawk.
Notice there is a cartridge chambered in each cylinder and also notice the cartridges below each cylinder. The longer cartridge on the right is the 45 Colt cartridge, on the left is the 45 ACP cartridge. As has been said, the 45 Colt cartridge is a rimmed cartridge. It is a very old design, first manufactured in 1873. Like most revolver cartridges of its day, it depends on its rim to seat the cartridge and prevent it from falling forward through the hole. The 45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) cartridge was developed around 1905. It is what is called a rimless cartridge. That big groove around the cartridge does not form a rim, that is an extractor groove. This cartridge was developed for semi-automatic pistols. Semi-autos usually stack the cartridges vertically in a magazine. If they have a rim, they will stack unevenly, so most, not all, semi-auto pistol cartridges have no rim, so they will stack up evenly in the magazine.
Since there is no rim, there has to be a way to seat the cartridge in the chamber so it will not fall through. Running around the inside of the chamber is a shoulder. This is actually the defining feature between the chamber and the chamber throat at the front of the cylinder. The chamber throat is the same diameter as the bullet, the rest of the chamber is slightly wider, the same diameter as the cartridge case. Remember, with most modern cartridges, the bullet is narrower than the cartridge case, because it slides inside the case. So the 45 ACP chamber is designed with a 90 degree shoulder that gives the front end of the case (the mouth) something square to butt up against. This is also the case with chambers in semi-automatic pistols. If you peek inside the chamber of the 45 Colt cylinder, the shoulder will be much further forward than in the 45 ACP cylinder because the case is so much longer. In addition, while the 45 ACP shoulder is at a right angle for the case mouth to seat against, the 45 Colt shoulder is sloped, allowing some clearance for the mouth of the case. This clearance is needed so there is not interference when the round is chambered, which could keep the round from seating fully.
Notice how the 45 ACP case sits flush with the rear of its cylinder, while the 45 Colt rim sits proud of the rear of its cylinder. If you look very carefully, the 45 ACP cylinder is about 1/16" longer than the 45 Colt cylinder. That is why the circular groove is there. The groove is a relief cut to protect the firing pin. Without the groove, the pin could be damaged if the cylinder was turned while the firing pin was pressed forward. The relief cut gives the pin some clearance.
Here is a photo of the 45 Colt cylinder in place with six rounds in the revolver. Notice how you can see the rims.
Here is the 45 APC cylinder in place in the same gun. You cannot tell looking here if there are cartridges in it or not because the cylinder is longer and completely covers the rear of the cartridges. And that much narrower space at the rear is why the firing pin needs clearance in the 45 ACP cylinder
As to why a cylinder may not just drop in, there are tiny differences in dimensions that creep into any revolver while it is being assembled. These differences are called manufacturing tolerances. One part may be a teeny bit larger than another part. Despite all the modern equipment used to make guns like these, tiny differences do occur. Most important with revolvers is the end of the barrel does not always extend the exact same amount into the area where the cylinder sits. So one cylinder may simply not fit into the space, the barrel may extend in too far for it. There are also issues of timing that may differ from gun to gun. For these reasons, cylinders are usually fitted specifically to the gun they go into at the factory. If I were to flip those two cylinders over you would see the last three digits of this gun's serial number engraved on them. That shows they were fitted at the factory to this gun.
With an after market cylinder, sometimes you get lucky and another cylinder will drop right in and function correctly, sometimes not. If another cylinder does drop in and function properly, it is dumb luck.
Stoots
Buckeye
Rainman said:
Dan is right John. Never be hesitant to ask questions around here!
Enjoy your Blackhawk!
JimMarch1
Blackhawk
Let me add one more detail .
If you have a 45LC cylinder as it appears you do, there's two other calibers that will fit and safely fire in that cylinder as-is.
One is the "Schofield" or "45 short", originally made for a particular model of breakopen S&W. Same gun seen prominently in the movie "Unforgiven" where Clint Eastwood opens a major can of whoop-a.. with it at the end. You can still buy this type of ammo, although there's no good reason to do so. Still, it'll shoot just fine.
The other is a relatively new critter, a "cowboy short" cartridge made by radically shortening 45LC cases to 45ACP length. This lets them shoot milder loads with less powder, and fit more rounds into a levergun's tube.
.If you have a 45LC cylinder as it appears you do, there's two other calibers that will fit and safely fire in that cylinder as-is.
One is the "Schofield" or "45 short", originally made for a particular model of breakopen S&W. Same gun seen prominently in the movie "Unforgiven" where Clint Eastwood opens a major can of whoop-a.. with it at the end. You can still buy this type of ammo, although there's no good reason to do so. Still, it'll shoot just fine.
The other is a relatively new critter, a "cowboy short" cartridge made by radically shortening 45LC cases to 45ACP length. This lets them shoot milder loads with less powder, and fit more rounds into a levergun's tube.
Smee781
Single-Sixer
Wow I did not know about a "cowboy short" sounds like a neat idea for my levergun. Thanks Jim, I learned something new today, what do you use to load a cowboy short load? Is it just a simple as resetting your dies or do you have to change things out? I guess acp load data will do? Sorry dont want to hijack the thread if anyone want to pass me some info and dosent want it on the thread just p.m. me. Thanks
Driftwood Johnson
Blackhawk
Howdy
Actually it is called the Cowboy 45 Special, not cowboy short.
You can buy them from my pal Adirondack Jack, their inventor.
http://www.cowboy45special.com/cowboy45brass.html
As to whether they will function in your lever rifle, probably not. Most lever rifles are Over All Length sensitive to some degree. Depending on the specific design, a lever gun will be tolerant to some extent of different length ammo, but the Cowboy 45 Special is short enough that it will not feed in most lever guns. You can install a custom carrier for a toggle link rifle like a Uberti Henry, 1866 or 1873 (not the Henry Repeating Arms Company Henry). This carrier will allow the 45 Cowboy Special to feed through those rifles, but then it will not feed 45 Colt. You pays your money you takes your choice. The 45 Cowboy Special is loaded with conventional 45 ACP dies, and a conventional 45 Colt shell holder or shell plate.
As for the 45 Schofield round, it has a slightly wider rim than the 45 Colt round. About .520 vs .512 for the 45 Colt. Most of the time it will seat fine in a 45 Colt revolver, but there can be clearance problems with some Rugers. I have two 'original model' Vaqueros that would not seat a 45 Schofield in one chamber each because of interference with the metal under the ratchet star. It was a big pain when I was shooting Schofield ammo at a CAS match one day and one of my Colts failed. I always bring along the Rugers as backups, but I had to do some filing at the lunch table to get a Schofield to drop onto that one chamber.
Here is a photo of a 45 Schofield compared to a 45 Colt. The short cartridge is the Schofield. If you look very closely you can see the Schofiled rim is a little bit wider.
Actually it is called the Cowboy 45 Special, not cowboy short.
You can buy them from my pal Adirondack Jack, their inventor.
http://www.cowboy45special.com/cowboy45brass.html
As to whether they will function in your lever rifle, probably not. Most lever rifles are Over All Length sensitive to some degree. Depending on the specific design, a lever gun will be tolerant to some extent of different length ammo, but the Cowboy 45 Special is short enough that it will not feed in most lever guns. You can install a custom carrier for a toggle link rifle like a Uberti Henry, 1866 or 1873 (not the Henry Repeating Arms Company Henry). This carrier will allow the 45 Cowboy Special to feed through those rifles, but then it will not feed 45 Colt. You pays your money you takes your choice. The 45 Cowboy Special is loaded with conventional 45 ACP dies, and a conventional 45 Colt shell holder or shell plate.
As for the 45 Schofield round, it has a slightly wider rim than the 45 Colt round. About .520 vs .512 for the 45 Colt. Most of the time it will seat fine in a 45 Colt revolver, but there can be clearance problems with some Rugers. I have two 'original model' Vaqueros that would not seat a 45 Schofield in one chamber each because of interference with the metal under the ratchet star. It was a big pain when I was shooting Schofield ammo at a CAS match one day and one of my Colts failed. I always bring along the Rugers as backups, but I had to do some filing at the lunch table to get a Schofield to drop onto that one chamber.
Here is a photo of a 45 Schofield compared to a 45 Colt. The short cartridge is the Schofield. If you look very closely you can see the Schofiled rim is a little bit wider.
UmpquaCharlie
Buckeye
Driftwood Johnson ...a tip of my hat for an individual who goes above and beyond to help the uninformed. Your pictures were perfect.
Charlie
Charlie
Meeteetse
Bearcat
If you or a friend has 45 Colt and/or 45 acp ammo, with the cylinder out of the gun, drop a 45 Colt round into the cylinder. If it is correct it will drop in properly. If it is a 45 acp cylinder the round will not go in completely.
This is well explained by the pictures from previous posts. If you drop a 45 acp round into a 45 Colt cylinder it will fall too deep and be obvious that it is wrong.
This is well explained by the pictures from previous posts. If you drop a 45 acp round into a 45 Colt cylinder it will fall too deep and be obvious that it is wrong.
Good post DJ.
Just for your info. The new models do not have the Firing pin grove in either cylinder. The Old models had them in both cylinders. Transfer bar guns don't need them.
Jim
Just for your info. The new models do not have the Firing pin grove in either cylinder. The Old models had them in both cylinders. Transfer bar guns don't need them.
Jim
Driftwood Johnson
Blackhawk
Well, that may be true today, but those cylinders are from my New Model. Notice the two pins? Of course, I bought it in 1975, so maybe things have changed since then.
Driftwood Johnson said:
Those were left over cylinders from the Old Models. That is why some of the New Models have the firing pin grove and NO GAP BETWEEN THE CYL. AND THE FRAME.
Jim
dregded this 2011 thread up looking for info on my new to me .30 cal NM BH. It has the relief cut, as I now know it is called. My gun is an early 1974 model so I am guessing it has a left over OM cylinder in it. As I understand it the new models with the transfer bar do not need the relief cut. Sound about right?? Still curious why all OM dont have or didnt need the cut to protect the firing pin?
