Real life stopping power

[GunnyGene]

Here's a real life example. Something to think about when choosing your personal carry kit.

Excerpt: (Body cam video at link) Also see the article at: http://www.policemag.com/channel/we...opping-power-myths-legends-and-realities.aspx

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...eo-shows-the-limit-of-handgun-stopping-power/

East Cleveland police responded to a call of an altercation on Sunday. When they arrived on the scene, they found a woman lying on the ground, calling for help and a man who threw his shirt at their cruiser yelling at them. As bodycam video of the incident reveals, when the suspect charged one of the officers, he was shot once in the abdomen.

But the bullet didn’t really slow him down. While the shot knocked the perp down, he bounced right back up and resumed his attack on another officer.

It eventually took three cops to hold him down and cuff him, despite the gunshot wound. News reports don’t reveal whether or not the man was under the influence or not, but that seems a good bet given how little consideration he gave to the gunshot wound.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

Why did it take three officers to restrain him? First time he got back up, one in the head would have kept him down "right now" (isn't that kinda what the doctor was hinting at?), regardless of whatever drugs he may have had floating about in his system. And I'm sure it would be ruled a good shoot... Dunno what their training policy is now (an officer involved shooting a couple of years ago makes me think it's been changed), but for many, many years the local Sheriff's Dept followed the "Two to the chest, one to the head" mantra, as I think a lot of other agencies around the country did. A scene like that is not the place to discuss whether a perp trying to assault officers can be rehabilitated later. It's the place to get things under control ASAP.

Just one taxpayer's opinion about how his dollar should be spent... ;)

Rick C

 

[bogus bill]

How many times have we read accounts of "It took three or five cops to restrain some perp? Well the deal usually is several cars of cops show up and all bail on the guy. Three cops aren't going to just stand there and shout, "Hey Joe! Put your thumb in his eye or whatever." Got to tell this one though it was over fifty years ago. I had a close friend "Bill" that was officer in a city in California. He was a big guy, about 6ft 5"s. One day he seen a pencil necked CHP officer that had a guy pulled over on the freeway going through his town. He pulled over just to back the chip up. The chip told him this is my highway your beat is down there, waving at the streets below the freeway. Bill says okay and left. As luck would have it sometime later Bill see`s the same Chip getting himself thrown around by a irate customer. Bill pulled over, walks up and says, well I see you can handle this okay and don't need any of my help. Guess I will go down to my streets!

 

[bogus bill]

I believe many years ago cops weren't so trigger happy. Back in the early 50`s we had a rough old cop in the small town near where I grew up. He also was a wrestler, also a family friend.. He pulled over a man I knew that was another family friend. I don't know what happened as I wasn't there but the old cop got a headlock on the guy I knew and pulled him out of the window of his truck! I believe each had to know the other pretty well too! The man "Walt" told me about it. Maybe drinking was involved.

 

[GunnyGene]

My point here was not about the police. It's about private citizens, especially those who are new to armed SD within the past few years, and what they ought to be taught about the effectiveness - or lack thereof - of whatever gun&ammo they have, as well as their proficiency with it. There's many people out there (whether they carry or just have a nitestand gun) that don't have clue, and they need to know the reality. That gun they own isn't a magic wand.

 

[DGW1949]

I hear ya Gunny.
Personally, I think you are wasting your time though. It's been my experience that most people just plain don't want to hear anything which doesn't fit into their pre-conceived notions...

But hey, good on you for trying.

DGW

 

[Mobuck]

I've shot enough game to know that the TV show/video hunter dude who fires a single shot and watches the critter run off is making a mistake.
Keep shooting until the target stops moving.
I don't need to watch any "body cam" video of someone getting shot to understand that bullets aren't magic and the best plan to to keep shooting until the threat stops or you run dry.

 

[GunnyGene]

I hear ya Gunny.
Personally, I think you are wasting your time though. It's been my experience that most people just plain don't want to hear anything which doesn't fit into their pre-conceived notions...

But hey, good on you for trying.

DGW

Mine also. But sometimes I get thru to one or two. Gotta do what you gotta do. :)

 

[Doc Holliday]

"While the shot knocked the perp down, he bounced right back up and resumed his attack on another officer."

He liked that one so much, give him a few more. Plenty where that came from. Probably whacked on crack, I knew what the perp would look like WAAAAAAY before I clicked the link.

 

[GunnyGene]

If you watch the video closely at high resolution/stop motion, approx 2 seconds elapsed between the time the perp launched himself at the cop and when he hit the pavement. About 1.5 sec for the cop to draw and shoot. No time to aim, etc. He barely got his gun level.

This was a perfect example of why point and shoot training for private citizens ought to be #1 priority, not standing at a bench punching holes in paper. How many gun owners do you know who practice this from wherever they conceal their gun - not counting members here?

 

[Captain America]

Not near enough information there to have a conversation about stopping power, the article said gunshot wound, that could mean the bullet grazed him. I believe this video tells a story about how shot placement is far more important than the caliber you carry.

 

[Dave P.]

For me as a private citizen the initial shot would have bought me enough time to get a whole
bunch of distance between me and the attacker ( in the same setting ).I'll run if I can before
I'd kill someone.
In my house or confined area there would have been more than one shot fired, pretty much
no doubt about it if a handgun was my only choice......now the 12 gauge with buckshot,
maybe just one.
Dave

 

[Mobuck]

"I'll run if I can before
I'd kill someone."

This OK if you're confident in your "running". Some of us may be unable to gain much distance and in fact may compromise our advantage by trying to escape. I might attempt to gain cover but outright flight might be a no-go.

 

[mistermills357]

Was he on PCP maybe? I am just musing, the drugs of today are a super variety, they ain't like the ones from the old days.
And, it does not surprise me that a man can take a bullet, and get right back up. It takes a brain shot sometimes, and that is a sad commentary on modern-day America.
The cops managed to wrestle him down though, but that was a clean knockdown shot. That bullet hit him hard, and it didn't matter; that has scary elements to it.

 

[Captain America]

...The cops managed to wrestle him down though, but that was a clean knockdown shot. That bullet hit him hard, and it didn't matter.

Not a drop of blood on the ground in the video, you would think the way he was fighting with no shirt on that there would be blood everywhere if it hit something vital...like I said earlier, from that video, this is all speculation.

 

[blume357]

Last time that happened down here I think the guy ended up being hit with various rounds from the responding officer something like 16 times....

And yes, it takes at least 3 good size trained men to subdue a person who does not want to be, especially if they are hyped up on anything including adrenaline.

 

[blackhawknj]

I think cops are much less trigger happy today, for various reasons. IIRC the spread of recreational drugs is a big reason why the 38 Special went out of fashion. And the old "two in the belly and one in the head" rule seems to be gone.

 

[GunnyGene]

...The cops managed to wrestle him down though, but that was a clean knockdown shot. That bullet hit him hard, and it didn't matter.

Not a drop of blood on the ground in the video, you would think the way he was fighting with no shirt on that there would be blood everywhere if it hit something vital...like I said earlier, from that video, this is all speculation.

Not everyone (or every animal) bleeds a lot from a pencil sized entry wound. There may be little to no signs of the wound except a small round hole, since most of the bleeding would be internal and pool inside the abdomen.

https://www.jems.com/articles/print...-care/many-elements-are-involved-pen.html?c=1

The major contributing factor in mortality from abdominal trauma is hemorrhage. Because of the large number of blood vessels and organs packed into the abdominal area, these patients are at an increased risk of significant hemorrhage even with a seemingly small wound. Blood from penetrating wounds to the abdomen can pool in the anterior abdomen, pelvis and retroperitoneum. Each can hold well over 1 L of fluid without external signs.

 

[Dan in MI]

I readily admit I haven't studied this like I should, but I remember something from ages ago about stopping an attacker by breaking bone structure.


That brings this question. Would a couple large caliber hits in the hip be a good idea? I'm thinking break the bones to make motion nearly impossible and there some good size arteries there for good measure.

 

[GunnyGene]

I readily admit I haven't studied this like I should, but I remember something from ages ago about stopping an attacker by breaking bone structure.


That brings this question. Would a couple large caliber hits in the hip be a good idea? I'm thinking break the bones to make motion nearly impossible and there some good size arteries there for good measure.

Yes. However that requires either aiming or getting lucky. You may not have either. Goes back to what I and others have said about up close and personal - shooting from retention, etc. Once that bullet enters the body there's no predicting what path it might take. If you don't practice this already, you should. :)

 

[RSIno1]

I believe many years ago cops weren't so trigger happy.

Now they are tired of getting in fights. Shooting an attacker is easier and safer since you don't know what disease you'll get from the perp when he/she starts scratching and biting. Also if 3-5 cops pile on a guy all the phone video shows is brutality. Bottom line use a .45 ACP that's what it was designed for.
Wiki: It was eventually evaluated that the .38-caliber round was significantly less effective in overall stopping-power than the .45 Colt against determined opponents in cases such as the Moro juramentado warriors, who were encountered in the Moro Rebellion. This experience, ..... decide a minimum of .45 caliber was required in a new handgun. .... tests on cadavers and animal remains in the Chicago stockyards, resulting in the finding that .45 was the most effective pistol cartridge.