So im getting the redding deluxe set for my 270 win, and when i read the lee catalog with the excellent bragging/marketing, they say their factory crimp will most assuredly improve accuracy. More consistent chamber pressures and whatnot. Conversly, my lyman manual says "crimping has a somewhat detrimental effect on accuracy." I dont know what to believe, what do you think?
Pro/Con Lee factory crimp die
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mike7mm08
Buckeye
In rifles I have not seen a noticeable difference. I am reloading freak though. I just feel better when I do everything possible that might possibly improve things. I have found with reloading consistence is the key. The LEE die is one final step to insure consistence. On heavy recoiling rifles it could possible prevent the bullets from being pushed into the case should they move in the magazine and the bullets make contact with the front of the magazine.
Now for the pistol caliber factory crimp dies I would not load with out one. Not only do they crimp but they do a secondary sizing after the bullet is seated. This ensures proper feeding.
Now for the pistol caliber factory crimp dies I would not load with out one. Not only do they crimp but they do a secondary sizing after the bullet is seated. This ensures proper feeding.
DeletedMember275
Hunter
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- Apr 17, 2002
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mike7mm08 said:
IMHO, the use of the Lee FCD with cast handgun bullets is neither needed nor desirable. It frequently swages the cast bullets to a smaller diameter, which causes leading and poor accuracy. If your brass needs a 'secondary sizing' after bullet seating, then either your technique is flawed or your equipment is in need of adjustment. I am not alone in this belief. I don't own any, and won't own any for that reason.
mike7mm08
Buckeye
I routinely use the factory crimp die with hardcast and they work just fine. Secondary sizing is not needed with my rounds as they are within acceptable range of tolerances. The factory crimp die sizes to the lower end of of tolerances. I feel better with ammo on the low end of tolerances. Dirty chamber or chamber cut on the bottom end of tolerances could cause issues with ammo on the upper end of tolerances. I load all my ammo with the mindset of it must work in the worst case scenario.
Back to the OP and the .270. I've never had the need for any factory crimp die in that caliper. I do in others.
Bottom line? Factory hype for you to buy their "factory crimp die".
Bottom line? Factory hype for you to buy their "factory crimp die".
I wouldn't think of reloading revolver magnum loads without a Lee factory roll crimp (taper crimp used for 45 acp) die. They are easy to use, inexpensive, and prevent bullet creep from recoil (45 acp for feeding and recoil).
I have my RL550 Dillon tooled up for 41 mag only member missing is a Lee roll crimp which I will hold off until I get one to finish things off. As noted it eliminates any guess work at the range.
I have also used Lee factory taper crimp to finish off 30-06, 308, and 223 bottle neck rifle cartridges which has worked very well in all cases.
Tom
I have my RL550 Dillon tooled up for 41 mag only member missing is a Lee roll crimp which I will hold off until I get one to finish things off. As noted it eliminates any guess work at the range.
I have also used Lee factory taper crimp to finish off 30-06, 308, and 223 bottle neck rifle cartridges which has worked very well in all cases.
Tom
All's cool. However, this thread is about the .270 only :wink:
.mike7mm08
Buckeye
Yep the crimp die works well. Peace of mind in rifle and for me they serve a real purpose in straight wall cases. One thing I did not mention is it is much easier to crimp in a second step. Crimping with your seating die can be done. But in my experience there is a very fine line between crimping and crushing when crimping with your seating die. With the crimp being separate you eliminate the chance of crushing a round at the shoulder. I have yet to see a crushed case with the factory crimp die.
Rick Courtright
Hawkeye
Hi,
Ok, I don't load the .270.
But I do load, and use the Lee FCD for .30-06, .30-30, .303 British and 7.62x54R. Also 9mm, .38 Spl, .357 Mag and .44 Mag.
I try to learn from those who do something more than I do, and have for a longer time. In this case, one of my "mentors" would be any ammo factory I've ever bought ammo from. Best I can recall, they ALL crimp ALL of the ammo I'm familiar with (and, yes, I realize there MAY be exceptions I haven't seen!) So I try to emulate them.
My chrono tells me I get more consistent results w/ the FCD than w/o. As for accuracy, I can't see any detrimental effects from using it. But I'm shooting "hunting" grade ammo in the rifles, and all kinds of "grades" in the handguns. I'm neither a bench rester nor bullseye shooter.
FWIW, all this is w/ MY loads in MY guns and all that...
Only downside of the FCD I can recall is that, like all of Lee's dies, it's finished in the white and needs a quick wipedown w/ a spot of oil to prevent rust.
Rick C
Ok, I don't load the .270.
But I do load, and use the Lee FCD for .30-06, .30-30, .303 British and 7.62x54R. Also 9mm, .38 Spl, .357 Mag and .44 Mag.
I try to learn from those who do something more than I do, and have for a longer time. In this case, one of my "mentors" would be any ammo factory I've ever bought ammo from. Best I can recall, they ALL crimp ALL of the ammo I'm familiar with (and, yes, I realize there MAY be exceptions I haven't seen!) So I try to emulate them.
My chrono tells me I get more consistent results w/ the FCD than w/o. As for accuracy, I can't see any detrimental effects from using it. But I'm shooting "hunting" grade ammo in the rifles, and all kinds of "grades" in the handguns. I'm neither a bench rester nor bullseye shooter.
FWIW, all this is w/ MY loads in MY guns and all that...
Only downside of the FCD I can recall is that, like all of Lee's dies, it's finished in the white and needs a quick wipedown w/ a spot of oil to prevent rust.
Rick C
M'BOGO
Buckeye
Not a .270 shooter, but many other bottle-necked rifle rounds. While there hasn't been an exhaustive comparison between cripmped Vs. uncrimped accuracy. I can say, there have been many impressive groups without trying ten combinations of components in various calibers, that the were done with Lee FCD being used.
Also had some very good results not using it.
My train of thought is on like with Ricks, factory ammo get crimped. The Lee FCD allows you to crimp on slugs that don't have a canneulure on them, not saying the crimp should make one though. It is reasonable to follow the train of thought that too much of a good thing can be bad too, and make the slugs possably fragment in ways not intended of overdone.
Like too much oil, can be a bad thing.
Also had some very good results not using it.
My train of thought is on like with Ricks, factory ammo get crimped. The Lee FCD allows you to crimp on slugs that don't have a canneulure on them, not saying the crimp should make one though. It is reasonable to follow the train of thought that too much of a good thing can be bad too, and make the slugs possably fragment in ways not intended of overdone.
Like too much oil, can be a bad thing.
I used to think that a crimp was"t needed, then on a hunting trip to south africa in 2002 I took .338 ammo that I had very carefully handloaded. The new win. brass was resized and loaded with 250 gr. noslers, not crimped because of course everyone knows it's not needed. Then bouncing around in the landrover the bullets all moved, some out, some in but not useable anymore! I finished the trip using an old reliable '06 also handloaded with noslers but crimped and had no problems. I now own and use several lee FCDs and I love them. If you ever plan to travel and hunt with the rifle CRIMP THE AMMO! As far as accuracy is concerned I've not seen any difference. GOOD LUCK.
DGW1949
Hawkeye
I'm not a .270 shooter but I've probably loaded as much 30-06 ammo as the next guy, and have shot 1000's of rounds of military ammo in the same caliber.....all of which has been crimped, except for "match" loads which aint crimped, simply because Sierra match-bullets don't have a crimp grove. And...the old '06 is the parent-case for the .270, eh?
With all that in mind, there's this;
In my experience, it aint that hard to adjust a "regular" die to achieve a proper crimp.
Correct "bullet pull" can be achieved with or without a crimp. The key is proper neck-tension for the case/bullet combo one is using. Some brass it thcker than other brass.
The accuracy of some military ammo is very-close to that of match ammo when used within the limitations of it's 150 Grn bullet. What I'm saying here is that within 200 yds or so, I've got some Danish military '06 that will consistently group 1-1/4 MOA out of my M1 Rifle and that it's only at 250yds and beyound that switching to Federal Gold Medal Match ammo makes an appreciable difference in group size.....which I attribute to it having a (superior) 168 bullet AND a more consistent primer.....not because of one being crimped and the other not.
IMNSHO, the primary reason to crimp a cartridge is to ensure correct "bullet pull". If one can achieve that without a crimp, then don't worry about crimping. If crimping makes ya feel better though, go for it. And if the LEE FCD crimper works better for you than the built-in crimper of whatever die-set you've been using, then by all means, switch.
It takes different horses to make a horse race....just sayin'.
DGW
With all that in mind, there's this;
In my experience, it aint that hard to adjust a "regular" die to achieve a proper crimp.
Correct "bullet pull" can be achieved with or without a crimp. The key is proper neck-tension for the case/bullet combo one is using. Some brass it thcker than other brass.
The accuracy of some military ammo is very-close to that of match ammo when used within the limitations of it's 150 Grn bullet. What I'm saying here is that within 200 yds or so, I've got some Danish military '06 that will consistently group 1-1/4 MOA out of my M1 Rifle and that it's only at 250yds and beyound that switching to Federal Gold Medal Match ammo makes an appreciable difference in group size.....which I attribute to it having a (superior) 168 bullet AND a more consistent primer.....not because of one being crimped and the other not.
IMNSHO, the primary reason to crimp a cartridge is to ensure correct "bullet pull". If one can achieve that without a crimp, then don't worry about crimping. If crimping makes ya feel better though, go for it. And if the LEE FCD crimper works better for you than the built-in crimper of whatever die-set you've been using, then by all means, switch.
It takes different horses to make a horse race....just sayin'.
DGW
Hylander
Blackhawk
The Lee factory crimp die is of no use for a bolt rifle in .270 or any other rifle cartridge in a bolt action.
Your Redding dies are all you need and are top shelf.
I use the Lee Crimp die for all my handgun loads.
Would not load without them.
Your Redding dies are all you need and are top shelf.
I use the Lee Crimp die for all my handgun loads.
Would not load without them.
Rainman
Blackhawk
One exception to the rifle cartridge that definately needs the FCD is my 45-70. I shoot everything from 300 gr jacketed hp to 525gr lead (457125) the original "government" bullet. They all really do well using that heavy crimp.
YMMV,
Dan
YMMV,
Dan
Hylander
Blackhawk
Rainman said:
Ah Yes, I wasn't thinking about the straight wall cartridges
gerryb158
Single-Sixer
The Lee FCD is an excellent tool that does exactly what it is intended to do. Note that some of its critics have never used one. I am only guessing but I think they have been available for maybe 15 years or so? Before that we had no choice but to use the seating die to crimp. That has worked pretty well for many decades. All hunting ammo should be crimped IMO. As an earlier comment proves; handling and transport can adversely affect the loaded rounds. If you are a single-shot bench rest shooter there's certainly no need to final crimp. If you use the FCD you know it is a good product. If you don't use it that's perfectly fine too.
Gerry
Gerry
There are as many different answers to this question as there are reloaders. If you are producing match type ammo to be used at the range, no crimp is necessary. When doing this, you will determine what works best for one rifle. If you are producing hunting ammo or ammo to be used in different weapons, Lee recommends a crimp. Crimping can produce more consistant release pressures giving more consistant results using the same ammo in different rifles.
I would recommend reading Modern Reloading by Richard Lee (the reloading manual). He goes into great detail on how to taylor ammo to a specific rifle and when one should crimp ammo. Too many variables to say yes it is better or no it is not.
I would recommend reading Modern Reloading by Richard Lee (the reloading manual). He goes into great detail on how to taylor ammo to a specific rifle and when one should crimp ammo. Too many variables to say yes it is better or no it is not.
Lost Sheep
Single-Sixer
You can use the FCD without the post-sizing (secondary sizing). Just knock the carbide sizing ring out of the die.Enigma said:
Then you get the advantage of the ease of adjusting the FCD separated from the adjusting of the seating die and problems associated with crimping a bullet while it is still being seated.
Of course, you can accomplish the same thing with a second crimp die with the seating stem removed.
Do what you like. I hear you on the desire not to size a cast lead bullet to undersized. And I hate overworking my brass.
Lost Sheep
Peter M. Eick
Bearcat
The rifle style FCD or the collet type, works reasonably well, but I would not use it on a bolt rifle round like the 270. I do use them on my 357sig and like the results.
The carbide ring style for pistols is an interesting issue. If you shoot thick brass like starline, lead bullets and use and FCD you are probably resizing your bullets and I bet your accuracy will be better if you take it out of the system. If you are using thin brass (remington), jacketed bullets and not resizing the bullet, then actually the FCD can do some good.
Hence the reason why some folks hate them, some rave them. Sit down with your brass, your bullet and your micrometer for a few minutes and you can find out if you are resizing your bullets or not. If you are probably accuracy will suffer.
The carbide ring style for pistols is an interesting issue. If you shoot thick brass like starline, lead bullets and use and FCD you are probably resizing your bullets and I bet your accuracy will be better if you take it out of the system. If you are using thin brass (remington), jacketed bullets and not resizing the bullet, then actually the FCD can do some good.
Hence the reason why some folks hate them, some rave them. Sit down with your brass, your bullet and your micrometer for a few minutes and you can find out if you are resizing your bullets or not. If you are probably accuracy will suffer.
roarin 54
Bearcat
The only time I use the Lee FCD in rifles is where they have a lot of free bore or leade, the FCD is a good substitute for seating a bullet all the way out to the lands, which is impossible for some military rifles with excessive free bore or rifles with tight magazine tolerances where over length cartridges will not feed or chamber reliably.
Donaldjr1969
Blackhawk
I use the FCD for my 45 Auto reloads. Even with the Lyman 452460s that Iron Mike Golf casts for me, it does not appear to be any resizing going on with the hardness of the alloy he uses. Granted I do not have a mic and I only use calipers. But while my loads are accurate enough, I should have them checked against a mic.
I agree totally!
The Lee factory crimp die is great for crimping but since I have followed good reloading practices, I don't need the die to resize my case AFTER I have seated the bullet!!!!!!
Check out my video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnaCMf7mO2c&list=UUjBSbEopV_-TazfsEvc8eBw&index=28&feature=plcp
Hope this helps!
bigboredad
Blackhawk
the only way to know if you will like it is to try one. Lee make them so affordable that if you don't like it you are not out a ton of money. I have used one in .45acp .40cal and .357 all only for cast bullets it has sized down exactly none of mine. I have pulled several and measured not guessed and not listned to the professional internet reloaders. The best crimp in my opinion is the redding profile I love it and its all my heavy .45colts or any .45colt gets
Lost Sheep
Single-Sixer
Most likely you are not getting sizing down of your bullets because your bullets are not oversized, your brass not overthick.bigboredad said:
If your FCD squishes your (cast lead) bullets down so they no longer fill your bore, you will get leading and/or erosion. If your bullets and bore are standard size, you get the experience you are getting.
If you do happen to have a bore that is oversized (and cast your bullets to match) Lee will sell you their FCD with the post-sizing ring appropriately sized. Just tell them what you want.
M'BOGO
Buckeye
Since the thread keeps migrating to the handgun FCD, away from the OP's question about the rifle model, which is a totally different animal. Ranch Dog Outdoors has had a run of special rifle style collet FCD's made up for the .357, .41, and .44 Mag, and the .45 Colt. With carbide ring to worry about affecting anything.
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