New Topic, sorta, .357 Data

[stevemb]

I've posted before, and on more than one web forum. With hunting seasons fast approaching, thought I'd try again. A Ruger BH only loading. I have 180 XTP's and 180gr WFN's. Have 2400 for powder. Am seating the XTP's "out", as there is plenty of room in the BH cylinder. Any one here use the 180XTP in a .357 Ruger, seated "out". Loads will NOT find there way into any other .357's, there are none others here. Etc..I have solid data for the WFN's, so, what'cha got for the XTP's ? Load would be for use on Ohio/Penn whitetails only. stevemb

 

[stevemb]

The BH is a S.S., N.M., 6 1/2" barrel. Low mileage. Was bought as a Gator gun, in Fla.. some yrs back. You are welcome to go the message route if ya don't want to post out in the open. stevemb

 

[mattsbox99]

H110 is my powder of choice for the heavies. I've loaded 2400 but it wasn't quite as accurate in my GP.

Seating the bullets further out is going to reduce pressure, and lessen the burn time so it will be dirtier. I think you're going the opposite way you really want to go by seating the bullets out further.

 

[stevemb]

Only seating out on the XTP, which has a second crimp groove, meant to be seated out, as an option, for long cylindered guns or contenders, etc.. stevemb

 

[stevemb]

This will not be a high volume load, nor for a favorite gun, so I'll not buy other powders. Got usable info ? Opinions welcome. stevemb

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I have shot that 180gr XTP (357Mag) from the second crimp grove in a Winchester rifle and in a Bisley Blackhawk. I took the Max load for the normal COL and added 10% more powder for the second groove. I have used both H-110 and Accurate #9 powders. They shot well, accurate, and it did not seem to stress anything. The brass and primers were fine. Sometime in the future I will be using a chronograph to help with load development. Hope this helps you some.

 

[stevemb]

Thanks ! I've done the same, yrs ago, with the 300gr XTP in my SBH and a RH I had at that time. But had data from a mag article to guide my way. Have never found data using 180 XTP and .357, seated out, Ruger only. stevemb

 

[Rclark]

Sounds like a fun time then to get the chronograph out and do some 'analysis'. Using the Hornady manual as your starting point and work up loads from there. What reloading is all about... explore some new territory!

 

[WESHOOT2]

Cough 14g.....

 

[stevemb]

WS2, had a couple well respected types who's names I won't drop, as they sent me info in PM's a few yrs ago, tell me 14g, using the WFN 180gr.. I've actually gone to 15gr of 2400 with the XTP's seated out. Just "felt" like more than a .357 should. Am in process of bullet pulling and this thread part of re-evaluating data. WISH I had a chrono. I don't have any magic velocity in mind I "need" to hit. I do want a clear conscious if I or B-n-Law put the front sight on a big chubby 10 pointer. I went from a Single-Six right into a SBH .44. Them 180gr XTP's in .357 look rather "cute", ya know ? Thanks all. stevemb

 

[Nowata]

Look at Loadswap.com, it has heavy, "Ruger" only loads. Be careful, some are REALLY top-end. Start low, work up(you know the drill!).

 

[stevemb]

Thanks, will check them out now. stevemb

 

[David Bradshaw]

I f I wanted to push a H180 XTP or cast 180 WFP out of the .357 Blackhawk like it meant business, I'd leave 2400 under the bench and reach for a can of 296/H110 or Hodgdon Lil'Gun. Charges in the 15-16 grain range. Lil'Gun has its place.

2400 is fine with cast 158 grain slug.

Don't know about seating the H180 XTP out----to take more powder. This is where a chronograph, and targets at 50 and 100 yards, really start talking. Seating the bullet out----to add more powder----reduces case grip on the bullet; may cause inconsistent ignition. That said, it is worth the experiment to find what works best.
David Bradshaw

 

[stevemb]

The XTP's, 180gr in .357, and 300gr in .44, have a second cannelure, made for this. I can tell you from my bullet pulling, that the remaining case tension, plus a good crimp, is PLENTY ! Lots of pounding required. Thanks guys. stevemb

 

[sailorb]

I have had great luck with Cast Precision 180 gr WFNGC and 12.5 gr of 2400 using a standard SP primer. I shoot them out of a Taurus Tracker ( I know, I hear some boos) and they give very tight groups and a velocity around 1175fps over the chrono. I have tried H110 with the same bullet and gotten less accuracy and a slower speed with a lot more flash and bang. By the way, that is with a 6.5" ported barrel. It is my standard less than brown bear, hog, two legged pervert load.

 

[David Bradshaw]

Chronograph----The missing ingredient for this strong gun .357 load development. I much prefer to target and chronograph simultaneously. It is more than conservation. There are times when you see a direct correlation between velocity and point of impact. Not always, so it is by no means an immutable rule.

A clear illustration of the correlation between velocity and POI occurs with IMR 4198 stick powder under 300 grain bullet in .45-70, when shooting through a T/C 16" barrel. (I'm being specific with details to keep this anecdote on the rails. Don't recall the powder charge.) Extreme spread measured 150 fps for five shots. Target at 50 yards. Dispersion in an 8" to 12" vertical line. The slowest shot printed highest, the fastest shot printed lowest, etc. Perfect Velocity-to-POI correlation. A slow shot has a longer "barrel time," therefore lifting the muzzle a fraction higher before bullet exit.

Without a chronograph, it would have been conjecture to make that assumption.

As to the strength of the Blackhawk .357 magnum, I have not personally tested it the way we did its steroid offspring, the .357 Maximum, but it is strong. It ranks very high on my list of .357 revolvers directly suitable for deer. It is important to select powder to safely push your 180 bullet as fast and accurately possible. Safely. The .357 is not a .44 or .45 so----besides marksmanship----bullet selection and velocity are more critical.

One can talk metallurgy. Yes, metallurgy and heat treatment are critical to great strength. But so is mass. That is why, for a given cylinder diameter, six chambers is weaker than five. Given equal materials, a .357 built on a .44 frame is much stronger than a .357 built on a .38 frame.

Brass fatigue becomes a factor at upper pressure, therefore hunting reloads should use new, once, or twice fired brass, not stuff that's been reloaded six times.

You state that your .357 case takes firm purchase of the Hornady 180 XTP when crimped in the lower cannelure. Try it that way. Bell the case the minimum amount necessary to start the bullet. Do not chamfer the case mouth. Target your loads at 50 and 100 yards. Not just 25 yds. You need to know the load is consistent, and 25 yds may not tell you that.
David Bradshaw

 

[stevemb]

Thank You David. You've hit on things I've not touched yet. Always more to learn ! A chrono has been on my wish list for a while. You can only go so far with seat-of-the-pants or web-of-the-hand type feedback. Safely, that is. stevemb

 

[David Bradshaw]

stevemb... you may get your load sorted out without a chronograph, but the proof cannot be ignored, and that is the target. I was largely ignored to death when I told various gun writers that they needed to test magnum handguns at a minimum 50 yards, then work to 100 yds., not settle on 25 yards criterion, if they wanted the respect of silhouette shooters and hunters. Even if you limit your shots at deer to 50 yards, you owe it to yourself and the deer to target at 100 yards.

Some persons think all revolvers are accurate (everyone knows that not all auto pistols are accurate). Some persons think all ammunition is accurate. False.

I understand your desire for more boiler room, seating a 180 grain bullet in the .357 mag case. Make up loads with 296/H110 and/or Hodgdon Lil'Gun, crimping in front cannelure. Then try a grain more, crimping in rear cannelure. In magnum cases revolver cases, 296/H110 (both are 296) does not like air space, certainly not a lot of air space.

I keep coming back to the chronograph for serious load development, it is a light on the path. It is possible that crimping in the rear cannelure will produce great results with a cylinder gap of .001 to .003", but cause huge gas flaring with a .010" gap. If you have an excessive cylinder gap, and you push the pressure peak forward, thgat gap will plunge you into the valley of diminishing returns. Pull out your feeler gauge. Little details like that sometimes matter.

Reloaders get in trouble very quickly when they go for top velocity with medium burn rate powders. It's like going from a walk up the hill to scaling a cliff----bad things happen fast.

Loading manuals, common sense, a target, and marksmanship are friends.
David Bradshaw

 

[WESHOOT2]

Undersung 357 'lotsa-case-room" hero: Vihtavuori N110.

 

[WESHOOT2]

Misunderstood 357 "hotties" hero: AA9.

 

[David Bradshaw]

Weshoot2... you are correct. I found in .44 mag Vihtavuori 110 not quite up to long range accuracy of 296/H110 and, in my loading, occupied a narrower rpm band.
David Bradshaw