MIM hammers are here

So what's your point? MIM isn't going away & here's why as told by a head honcho, Herb Belin, at S&W:

"I have read with much interest the many comments in this forum pertaining to MIM, MIM Parts and the use of same in a S&W product. So far I have come away with several impressions and they are "people in general don't like/trust MIM parts" and no one has said why. I will take a stab at this issue and see where it goes.

As background to our decision to use MIM in some areas of our Mfg Process, we took a long hard look at our "Life Time Service Policy". It was clear to us that any change in any of our products such as the use of MIM components had to show equivalent or better performance and durability to those components that were being replaced or the "Lifetime Service" would haunt us forever. The second consideration was to determine if the change was too radical a departure from S&W mainstream design.

For the performance and durability issues, we decided that if MIM could be used for the fabrication of revolver hammers and triggers succesfully this would truly be an "Acid Test". There is nothing more important to a revolvers feel than the all important Single Action Sear that is established between the hammer and the trigger. Mechanicaly few places in a revolver work harder than at the point where the hammer and trigger bear against each other. If these surfaces wear or loose their "edge", the "feel" is lost. Initial testing was on these two critical parts. Over time we arrived at a point where our best shooters could not tell the difference between a revolver with the old style hammer and trigger and the new MIM components. Special attention was given to their endurance when used in our very light Magnum J frames such as the early prototype 340 & 360 Sc's. None of our revolvers work their components harder than these small magnum revolvers. Throughout this testing MIM held strong and finally we determined that this change, judged on the basis of durability and feel, was a good one.

The second area of concern to S&W was our customers reaction to this departure from the traditional. Many heated, intense discussions resulted, but in the end the decision was made to move ahead with MIM.

The issue of cost was only one of the considerations in making this decision. Equally as important was the issue of part to part uniformity and the result of this of course is Revolver to Revolver consistancy. We found that revolvers that used MIM hammers and triggers required almost no fitter intervention in those areas during final assembly and final inspection and Trigger Pull Monitor rejection rates dropped markedly on finished guns. From an internal process point of view, it appeared a "Winner".

Lets shift gears for a moment and talk about the MIM process. It is unclear to me as to the reason for many of the negative feelings on the forum concerning MIM. Typically when people complain and aren't specific in the reason why, the problem is often created by a departure from the "Traditional". Perhaps that is indeed what is bothering some people when they view MIM.

The term MIM stands for Metal Injection Molding. It holds some similarities to Plastic Injection Molding and many differences as well. To start we would take a finally divided metal powder. This could be stainless or carbon steel. Today even Titanium is being used in some MIM fabrications. We would mix the metal powder and a thermoplastic binder (generally a Wax) forming a slurry of sorts when heated, inject this mix into a precision mold, and finally form what is known as a"Green Part". This part is roughly 30% larger than the finished part it will become at the end of the process. Interestingly enough, the Green Part at this stage can be snapped in two with simple finger pressure. The Green Parts are then placed in a Sintering furnace filled with dry Hydrogen gas and the temperature is brought almost to the melting point of the metal being used. Over time the "Wax" in the Green Part is evaporated, the metal fuses and the part shrinks 30% to it's final correct dimensions. At this stage of the process the MIM part has developed 98 to 99% of the density of the older wrought materials and a metalurgy that is almost identical. Dimensionally, it is finished and no machining is required. However the job is not yet done and the MIM parts are brought to our Heat Treat facility for hardening, and in the case of Hammers and Triggers, Case Hardening. Depending on the particular metal alloy that was used at the start of the process, we apply a heat treat process that is the same as would be used if the material was the older wrought style. Final hardness, case thickness and core hardness are for the most part identical to parts manufactured the older way.

Let's look for a moment at how we acheive dimensional precision when comparing these 2 processes. The old parts were each machined from either bar stock or a forging. Each cut and every resulting dimension was subject to machine variations, cutter wear, operator variations, etc. If every operation was done exactly right, each and every time and the cutter didn't let you down you would have produced a good part, but sometimes this didnt happen resulting in a rejected gun and rework, or in the worst case an unhappy customer. With MIM parts you must still machine to very high tolerances and your cutters have to be perfect and your machinist has to be highly qualified, but all of this only has to come together one time. That time is when the injection mold is made. Typically a mold for this process costs S&W between $30,000 and $50,000. Once it is perfect, every part it makes mirrors this perfection and you have in my view a wonderful manufacturing process.

Hopefully this description will help us all better understand the MIM process.
Please forgive the spelling errors and missplaced puncuation. I have no spell checker on this and the phone continues to ring!

Have a Great Weekend,
Herb

Additional Point:
Currently S&W is paying about $1.20/Lb for stainless steel barstock. Raw MIM stainless steel injectable material costs $10.00/Lb."
 
Probably because MIM parts have a well-deserved rep for crashing and burning, Boge. You can thank the Everybody And His Uncle 1911 industry for a good deal of that. I absolutely won't have it for critical parts of any 1911 I carry. I will gut them like a fish, to get rid of it.

The obvious presence of MIM also signals the end of hand-fitted mechanisms- once the hallmark of a quality revolver.
 
M'BOGO said:
Anything man made can fail. Forged or MIM.

And in Rugers case it's usually Cast vs MIM, and the official story is that the MIM parts are actually stronger than the cast.
That said, the last three Ruger revolvers I've purchased I took my time and found just the right gun on the used market, that not only saved me $ but got me a weapon produced pre-MIM.
Heck I'm old, and consider myself better than any newer-more modern-improved versions. LOL
Sal
 
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What Belin doesn't mention in that often-repeated quote is that the material may be more expensive, but S&W makes up for it in the much- reduced labor costs.
I won't get into a MIM argument, beyond saying that MIM is not used by S&W because it makes "better" parts, it's used because it makes gun production costs cheaper. :)
Denis
 
DPris said:
What Belin doesn't mention in that often-repeated quote is that the material may be more expensive, but S&W makes up for it in the much- reduced labor costs.
I won't get into a MIM argument, beyond saying that MIM is not used by S&W because it makes "better" parts, it's used because it makes gun production costs cheaper. :)
Denis

Yep, agreed. A very well written, intelligent, and logical sounding statement on the issue by Belin. But then what would anyone expect in a "Official" statement from a manufacturer? "Yea we are now using MIM parts that are inferior to the prior fully machined forged or cast parts, but we consider them GOOD ENOUGH and they'll have an acceptably low failure rate", you'll never hear that in a million years.
Have you heard some of the statements that come out of Obama's mouth ever since he came into the public arena? LOL
Sal
 
If it helps to keep them in business making more guns; then I'll learn to live with them
 
Remember the wise words of one of the founders of S&W, Daniel B. Wesson, who once stated that he MADE guns & that he did not SELL guns. He left that to the distributors. :wink:

Of course, labor costs are expensive in ANY endeavor. A gun co. is not a Wisconsin civil servants union sucking up millions in taxpayer dollars. They are in business to make money.

I'd be interested to know Ruger's wage scale. They're not union. :P :wink:
 
Yup... Time is money... Unfortunately we live in a world where people set an inordinate value for "their time"
 
Most people with a little knowledge of metallurgy consider a MIM part to be at least as strong as a cast part, to keep things in perspective for those who don't know ruger frames are castings. Now if the frames were forgings you may have a better argument.
 
Let the MIM panic begin!

I have been shooting MIM S&W's for a while now, so I'm not worried about it.

There are PLENTY of older cast part Rugers out there on the secondary market, and unlike S&W, I don't see prices going up all that much for the older ones.

The vast majority of buyers will be perfectly happy with their MIM SP101's and they will get a lifetime of service out of them. There will be those who "boycott" like the S&W debacle of the early 2000's with the MIM and IL guns, but Ruger will sell enough guns regardless.
 
Well, there are some silver linings.

Ruger has finally cleaned up the hammer spur and now it almost looks like a finished part. Guess I can sell my Swiss files on ebay now. The new cylinder stop boss is pretty tacky and the new ratchet does not impress; but I suppose these are a small price to pay for the ability to easily address Ruger's proclivity for for installing short firing pins- via the screw-out retaining plate.

So overall- not bad. Ruger's post-'85 DA revolvers weren't exactly monuments to the gunmaker's art... and at least there's no Willy Hole in the side of it.

Yet.
 
I can accept the advantages of MIM parts and the use of which is needed for companies to be competitive.

But I'll give my specific dislikes:

I have a hard time looking at casting seams on the parts and finishes looking sand blasted that do not match the rest of the gun. And hollow back triggers that remind me of my old toy cap guns!

To me the gun just loses the 'panache' that I look for in my guns. To some it's just a tool but to me it's a form of craftsmanship as well that should look like it.
 
Well, after reading this from Clements’s website about MIM parts, thanks, but no thanks;

I am currently only accepting N-frame cal. conversions. I cannot do action work on newer guns with MIM parts. If the back of the trigger has cavities cast in it, then the gun is a MIM gun and not suitable. http://www.clementscustomguns.com/smithwessonrevolvers.html

As far as I understand, once MIM part is stoned doing action job, harden surface is gone, and material bellow is softer, soft enough that Clements refuses to work on such guns.

If I am in marketing, I would be very careful what’s going in my guns. These days some accountants are so pushy with short term profit ideas, that they are totally blind for overall marketing picture. And part of it is that many of us like good, old, solid steel. See what is going on with 1911; big guys are almost all shifted to cast frames, some even cast slides. Guess what, I know a number of small companies making 1911 slides and frames from billet. Those parts are not cheap, but noted companies are growing/expanding rapidly. Obviously, must be growing market that demands such products, more and more folks are not willing to compromise on quality any more. And willing to pay more for what they want.
 
Onty,
I don't believe that's correct on the hardened surface part. :)
Denis
 
NorEaster said:
Yup... Time is money... Unfortunately we live in a world where people set an inordinate value for "their time"


I find most people put too low a value on quality.
 
MIM parts have been around for long time in other industries and in the firearm industry they been around for 20+ years. MIM parts can be very high quality... better than cast and almost as good as forged part. Due to the charateristics of the material they can not be used in some (many?) firearm applications. Depending on the part and application, they can last as long as any forged parts.

The problem with MIM parts is that the cost of inspecting (QC) each individual part is expensive so some manufacturers cut cost on the inspection... leading to occasional bad part. A bad MIM part usually break quickly i.e. if a MIM part doesn't break in the first 300 rounds then it will usually last 30,000 rounds.

Forged parts break too. I have two older Colt Government model pistols that has broken 3 slide stops and a barrel bushing between them in last 20 years.
 

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