Metal Guide Rods....

[jhearne]

Just a gauge of what everyone is thinking about metal guide rods.

I have one, it's stainless. I have another from Galloway for testing purposes.

I'm withholding any reasoning and my vote as to why I do until later on in the posting not to spoil or influence any votes.

Josh

 

[Tmyoungjr]

Personally it just looks better.

On my .40 I don't believe it adds enough weight to reasonably help with muzzle flip or the like.

The only thing making my SR40 more accurate at this point is myself and I'm certainly not doing it any favors!

 

[P90]

I have a Firedragon one in my P90. I can tell a difference in the impact of the slide, especially with heavy loads. Never had a problem of any kind with it.

 

[Lateck]

I have replaced the plastic rods on all of my SIG's that had them. I have a metal rod on my LCP and I have on order a metal on for my SR40, so far.
I wanted to vote for Both the "Looks" and "Muzzle Flip" (but can't).

I (personally) think that; That, wear item should be metal as they were not that long ago. The weight loss is minor when the companies go to plastic and I do believe that the rods take a great amount of abuse in the normal use of a firearm.
Many of the plastic rods I have replaced showed "some" signs of wear.
The rod in my LC9 shows a lot. Now, they may last a great number of years but why take a chance that they will fail. I had a friend that had a rod fail on one of his Kel-Tec's......

My 2 cents.

Lateck,

 

[roylt]

I didn't vote because I really don't know but my guess is that a metal rod would help keep everything locking up at the same point which would lead to more accuracy. Plastic one could flex.

I know a lot of people that have replaced the plastic unit in their glocks. But never really thought to ask why.

I generally shoot the gun as it left the factory. Engineers get paid a lot of money to make stuff right the first time. After market parts are sometimes made just to sell to people that like neat things and to make a profit. I have surcome to this from time to time as well.

 

[jhearne]

I didn't vote because I really don't know but my guess is that a metal rod would help keep everything locking up at the same point which would lead to more accuracy. Plastic one could flex.

I know a lot of people that have replaced the plastic unit in their glocks. But never really thought to ask why.

I generally shoot the gun as it left the factory. Engineers get paid a lot of money to make stuff right the first time. After market parts are sometimes made just to sell to people that like neat things and to make a profit. I have surcome to this from time to time as well.

How so? We talking about flexing because under recoil, there's some noticeable forces at work? Or is it flexing under load somehow?

Josh

 

[209Man]

I'm not sure. What about excessive wear, metal on metal? Maybe if there was a recoil buffer on the front. Maybe the purpose of the plastic one was to flex a little, so the other parts can move like they should? Just curious...

 

[roylt]

I didn't vote because I really don't know but my guess is that a metal rod would help keep everything locking up at the same point which would lead to more accuracy. Plastic one could flex.

I know a lot of people that have replaced the plastic unit in their glocks. But never really thought to ask why.

I generally shoot the gun as it left the factory. Engineers get paid a lot of money to make stuff right the first time. After market parts are sometimes made just to sell to people that like neat things and to make a profit. I have surcome to this from time to time as well.

How so? We talking about flexing because under recoil, there's some noticeable forces at work? Or is it flexing under load somehow?

Josh

This is all thery on my part but As the gun would recoil and then the guide rod were to push the gun back to lock it could have flexed slightly during this action and not return to the exact same spot? Now that I type it out it does sound silly because the barrel and slide should lock back "home" the same everytime.

Maybe just disregard everything I typed the first time? I am fairly new to guns.

 

[Anonymous]

I voted "They look better" because that's about the only benefit I see to them. The won't help with accuracy, and would have a very minimal effect on muzzle rise.

 

[jhearne]

I understand roylt, I don't understand the flexing either, it's why I'm posting the poll/question as to what all the hub-ub is about. The Guide Rod Spring(s) act upon 2 faces. One being the Camblock or pivot point for the Barrel/Guide Rod (depends on the gun), and then the interior of the slide. The Guide Rod simply extends through the muzzle end of the slide.

The way I'm understanding the flexing in that SS Guide Rod Review thread, is that when the LC9 cycles, the recoil causes the rod to flex some, putting the springs in a position to rub the guide rod excessively. That's how I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea anyways. What I think is happening is that when the gun cycles, the barrel/guide rod tilts back as the slide moves back. The guide spring's faces of which they act upon are no longer concentric. And that "eccentric" alignment causes the spring to rub the Guide Rod.

I know that this isn't an issue with the SR9/c/40/c, or it shouldn't be. The guide rod sits parallel to the frame and only the barrel tilts. The guide rod rests against the camblock, not just a point on the barrel like a Glock or LC9/P. I don't know that I'd call it flexing, but I can understand how this particular design affects wear against the spring(s). Until anyone can provide some proof, like some high speed video, we're all just pissing in the wind.

It doesn't effect lock-up, and therefore shouldn't effect accuracy, at all, there are bigger forces at play there. The bullet is out of the barrel by the time the slide has reacted to the round going off. Any increase in weight might be able to result in a perceived lessened recoil or muzzle flip, but we're talking about a few ounces difference really. Recoil would vary per model of gun anyways. A lot of pistol shooting is all in your head.

I voted cosmetic only.

Josh

 

[Mike J]

I'm not voting Josh because I don't really see the point. Personally I think it is just something people can do to personalize their gun. I don't really see any appreciable pay off to doing this.

 

[jhearne]

I'm not voting Josh because I don't really see the point. Personally I think it is just something people can do to personalize their gun. I don't really see any appreciable pay off to doing this.

Totally acceptable response! Different strokes for different folks. Can't edit poll, use other if you'd like.

Josh

 

[Big Stu]

I can't vote because I have no idea what the results of changing the rod would do for my SR9c.

 

[Stimo3]

I didn't vote because I really don't know but my guess is that a metal rod would help keep everything locking up at the same point which would lead to more accuracy. Plastic one could flex.

I know a lot of people that have replaced the plastic unit in their glocks. But never really thought to ask why.

I generally shoot the gun as it left the factory. Engineers get paid a lot of money to make stuff right the first time. After market parts are sometimes made just to sell to people that like neat things and to make a profit. I have surcome to this from time to time as well.

How so? We talking about flexing because under recoil, there's some noticeable forces at work? Or is it flexing under load somehow?

Josh

The LC9 guide rod flexes just from racking the slide back! If you take the slide off, leave everything on the slide in on piece, push the barrel down a tiny bit, and push forward like you would if you were racking a round in the chamber. The guide rod flexes like a mofo JUST from racking, let alone under the force of firing, which is why i had a stock guide rod sent out to a manufacturer for making a SS guide rod for the LC9 to help with recoil, muzzle flip, and te pitting i was getting in the stock guide rod after 600 rounds. ~1in. down from the tip a had noticeable peening on the plastic guide rod, getting to the point where it was starting to making me uncomfortable as i could feel it with my finger. It didnt effect the function yet, but i wasnt about to wait until it did. I now have ~600 rounds through it with the SS rod in and it looks much better and has functioned noticeably smoother.
Another thing that i think of when discussing steel guide rods is; professional shooters switching to them when allowed. If they didnt do anything, why would they switch them out to Steel when allowed in competition?
IMO if the professionals that shoot IDPA switch to SS guide rods when allowed to on full-size guns, (most do) and it makes a difference for them, i'd imagine that it would help noticeably more on these smaller guns where weight plays a bigger factor in muzzle flip, recoil, etc., especially in muzzle flip.
With the SS guide rod installed on my LC9, i've noticed my double taps at ~20yds have gotten noticeably tighter, not to mention i dont eject spent casings ~10ft now more like ~6, since the stock guide rod isnt flexing the springs have to compress a bit more, and in turn that reduces the recoil a bit, at least that's what i'm noticing in my testing of the LC9 SS guide rod. I have a test and review thread that you can check out with pictures, the pictures have ~400 rounds through the gun with the SS guide rod installed, and i plan on having ~1k rounds through it by this coming weekend (~600 now), so the manufacturer has a good idea of how they'll perform. But check out my thread on the LC9 SS guide rod test and Review if you're interested in SS guide rods for the LC9/ any gun since it also just discusses SS guide rods in general, i have a lot of information in there on them as i've been doing research since ive been testing i've written a couple noticeable differences down, but people are going to believe what they want, and if they want to believe that i'm making a profit for doing a test & review, so be it lol.
I'm going to be doing another Test & Review coming up here in the next week or two on a GREAT IWB holster for the LC9 since people have been looking for nice, comfortable holsters that don't print, are easy to conceal, and easy to get to and draw fast. The holsters are already designed and have been produced for a while, just nobody really knows about them so i plan on doing the same type of review, to get the product out there and show people how well it works, and people again can make up their own minds on weather it's a nice holster or not, but i already have 3 of them for my guns, and i swear by them, they're the best IWB holsters i've ever used/worn. Durning other months i carry my FNP-40 in one all day everyday and it's extremely comfortable! It's one of those rare holsters that makes you forget you're packing, so if it does that well for compact/full size guns, i can only imagine how itll feel with the little LC9 in it Test & Review to come ASAP!

 

[Cheesewhiz]

I'm not voting Josh because I don't really see the point. Personally I think it is just something people can do to personalize their gun. I don't really see any appreciable pay off to doing this.

I agree with this. There are several gun makers that say Do Not Install An Aftermarket Metal Guiderod, in some or all their pistols.

 

[Gunsby_Blazen]

its just a quality thing. i just prefer certain things made of metal over plastic

i also feel kind of weird saying that about a polymer framed handgun...
i dont mean it to be a contradiction but i am sure many folks on here know what i am talking about...

i like the metal one that i have....
it does look better and its more rigid (dont know if that is a good thing though)

 

[Stimo3]

Another big part is that it's proven that the stock plastic guide rods can break. Its not common, but it can happen. IMO as long as the steel one does no damage to the gun, and you obviously dont have to worry about it breaking, that alone is worth the cost. Not to mention it does look better .

 

[ConradM]

I put a SS guide rod in my Glock 34. I wanted the ability to swap out springs and I like the added weight.

 

[Stimo3]

I put a SS guide rod in my Glock 34. I wanted the ability to swap out springs and I like the added weight.

That's why i believe my double taps improved at distance so noticeably, that extra weight right on the front of a gun that weighs only ~17oz. unloaded. If you can feel the added weight on your Glock which definitely weighs more, think about the little sub compact LC9 with one. IMO that extra weight on such a small, light gun has to be what improved my double taps at distance so much, because i've changed nothing but that and my double taps have noticeably improved! I posted a picture in my review of me shooting 50 rounds at ~25yds i believe, and i only missed with 4 rounds, all the other rounds were center mass kill shots and the shots i did miss was when i was doing head shots, and even at that distance with ~20 rounds to the head or so i only missed with 2-3 (one went WAY low and JUST grazed the paper at his waist lol). I would switch rods and try 50 rounds with the stock rod in, but if i did much worse or WAY worse, people would say it's biased so im not even going to try. If i posted up an old target, i cant say at what distance i was shooting at or how much practice i had with the gun by that time so it wouldnt be fair since i have more experience with it now.
I'm going to have 1k rounds by the time the manufacturer does his inspection on it, and if all is well i'll continue to use it, which i have a pretty good feeling it will be as i have 600 through it already. I dont think PROFESSIONAL shooters in competition would switch to SS guide rods WHEN ALLOWED to if they did absolutely nothing, what would be the point? Obviously it does something for them, im noticing reduced recoil, it makes complete sense, more weight on the front of the gun, i'll go with what the pros use. I also have a letter written to Ruger asking about using a SS guide rod on the LC9 and if it's safe to use.

 

[jhearne]

Stimo3, you mention it was pitting the guide rod...the flexing was. Have any pics? I can only find the pic of the one in another thread. If it's anything like the one in this thread, seems it'd be more a deburring issue. Not the first time Ruger's had a part slip out not deburred, wouldn't be the last. Flexing, or the capacity to flex, seems to be a property of the design of that style of pistol with a steeper lock angle.

Another thing is, how many others here have the flexing issue, well, are sure that flexing is the root of the issue of wear? Have to keep in mind that this is a forum where many come to seek advice and fewer come to strictly to give it. Meaning, the sample of people here is biased to those with issues seeking advice. The majority of owners probably don't have anything wrong. We ran into this sample size issue with the original SR9 and peening barrels. Ruger made adjustments and there is no issue anymore.

While it may have alleviated your issue(s), it seems to be pretty isolated in terms of the LC9.

Competitive shooters will take every chance they can to improve their gun and technique. It's why when they can, they'll go even further than a steel guide rod and add in a counter weight of some sort. However, in a smaller gun, there is less weight to begin with and can be easier to discern a difference in the gun's center of gravity.

Josh

 

[Stimo3]

Stimo3, you mention it was pitting the guide rod...the flexing was. Have any pics? I can only find the pic of the one in another thread. If it's anything like the one in this thread, seems it'd be more a deburring issue. Not the first time Ruger's had a part slip out not deburred, wouldn't be the last. Flexing, or the capacity to flex, seems to be a property of the design of that style of pistol with a steeper lock angle.

Another thing is, how many others here have the flexing issue, well, are sure that flexing is the root of the issue of wear? Have to keep in mind that this is a forum where many come to seek advice and fewer come to strictly to give it. Meaning, the sample of people here is biased to those with issues seeking advice. The majority of owners probably don't have anything wrong. We ran into this sample size issue with the original SR9 and peening barrels. Ruger made adjustments and there is no issue anymore.

While it may have alleviated your issue(s), it seems to be pretty isolated in terms of the LC9.

Competitive shooters will take every chance they can to improve their gun and technique. It's why when they can, they'll go even further than a steel guide rod and add in a counter weight of some sort. However, in a smaller gun, there is less weight to begin with and can be easier to discern a difference in the gun's center of gravity.

Josh

First off, my stock guide rod looked NOTHING like the one in that thread, that has peening from the tip ALL the way down an inch, i have peening 1in. down and that's it. So it made an indentation 1in. down from the tip, and around the rod. The flexing i don't have any pics of it, but i'll try and post a picture or two of it flexing up from what would just be racking the slide back, let alone how much it bends when being fired.

Second, i got a response back from the rep. at Ruger. Of course he said since it's not a Ruger product iif it does any damage the warranty will be voided, and that only Ruger made parts should be used on a Ruger, so basically CYA statement for them. Other than that, he said nothing about the gun specifically being designed to have to guide rod flex, so throw that myth out the window as i specifically asked.

Third, he said as long as there's no excess wear on the hole for the slide where the guide rod passes through and it's not affecting that area, and im not getting bad peening, then it should be okay to use although it's not covered under warranty which i already knew obviously.

As for the guns center of gravity and throwing it off, the guide rod doesnt weigh 10oz. .. It DOES weigh more and noticeably helps with recoil, but it doesnt weigh enough to the point where it throws off balance whatsoever. And i'm not adding counter weights like you say some professional shooters do, so IMO just a bit more weight on the front is going to benefit you if anything, not throw the balance of the gun off. Like i said before the guide rod doesnt weigh THAT much, but a noticeable amount more than stock.

Just to add, i just purchased a Theisholster from TheisHolsters.com for my LC9, and as soon as i get it i plan on doing a review on that holster too. I've dealt with Mr. Theis before and he has GREAT customer service, he does everything himself, so i just wanted to point out that i PLACED my order this morning and paid for it in full, so lets see how long it takes for it to get here and i'll start the review on it ASAP as i know LOT of people are looking for a comfortable IWB Concealed carry holster and these are some of the best. Don't want to give to much info up here so come check out the Test & Review in a couple days!

 

[jhearne]

With it being 1" from the tip, and that it's doing it with the steel rod now too (albeit fairly minor), seems the issue wasn't the flexing, but the gun or just the vibration from shooting.

Wouldn't expect Ruger to do or say or do anything different. When asking hypotheticals, CYA statements is pretty much what you'll get from any big company.

You misread or mistook my comment about the counter-weight and center of gravity statements. Just said that pro shooters would do stuff like that, essentially agreed with your statement earlier. About the center or balance, it doesn't throw it off, just moves it forward dependent on the change in weight.

Josh

 

[axisofoil]

Well, if it 'voids the warranty', you won't be missing out on much. You know, with the part where Rugers don't come with warranties (at least none of mine did).

 

[Anonymous]

This is straight from Ruger regarding a warranty:

The Magnuson-Moss Act (Public Law 93-637) does not require any seller or manufacturer of a consumer product to give a written warranty. It does provide that if a written warranty is given, it must be designated as "limited" or as "full" and sets minimum standards for a "full" warranty. Sturm, Ruger & Company, Inc. has elected not to provide any written warranty, either "limited" or "full", rather than to attempt to comply with the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Act and the regulations issued thereunder. There are certain implied warranties under state law with respect to sales of consumer goods. As the extent and interpretation of these implied warranties varies from state to state, you should refer to your state statutes. Sturm, Ruger & Company wishes to assure its customers of its continued interest in providing service to owners of Ruger firearms.

 

[bada61265]

ive had full length guide rods on my 45`s and cant quantify any true improvements over the gi issue plug system. as far as other guns like my sr9 with a plastic plug i can see any reason to change over to metal unless its just for looks. one thing ive found benifit in and have done this to a couple auto pistols is aftermarket barrels, longer and ported. both on a 45 and a berreta 9mm made huge awsome improvements over the stock barrels. this does little to help my sr9 and simmilar guns as theres no aftermarket for such barrels . but if there were sign me up for one.

 

[Stimo3]

With it being 1" from the tip, and that it's doing it with the steel rod now too (albeit fairly minor), seems the issue wasn't the flexing, but the gun or just the vibration from shooting.

Wouldn't expect Ruger to do or say or do anything different. When asking hypotheticals, CYA statements is pretty much what you'll get from any big company.

You misread or mistook my comment about the counter-weight and center of gravity statements. Just said that pro shooters would do stuff like that, essentially agreed with your statement earlier. About the center or balance, it doesn't throw it off, just moves it forward dependent on the change in weight.

Josh

It's so minor that you can't see it unless you hold it up to the light just right, so its barely making contact with it. I honestly wouldn't even consider it pitting as you cannot feel it with your finger tip even it's so minor. I'll post pictures and try to capture it as soon as i get a couple hundred more rounds through it.

Okay i see what you're saying now, yes i misunderstood what you meant by that.

 

[aWoods]

I lot of competition shooters swap it out in their glock 34 or 35s. As mentioned before, it helps a bit with sight reset, and allows you to swap springs to match different handloads.

For a carry or SD gun, it seems less ideal, since you should be using full power loads, and will also be less willing to change the factory configuration, since it can affect reliability.

 

[insaneranger]

The only part I agree on is they look good, but that's where it ends. I had a very bad experience with a Bedair stainless guide rod for my SR9. I had well over 2,500 rounds with the factory guide rod & zero failures. After installing the stainless guide rod, I couldn't even rack the slide by hand because it was binding up so badly. This resulted in the front of my slide getting chewed up some & could have resulted in the pistol blowing up in my hands. I sent it back & got a refund, but still have a messed up looking slide because of it. Not worth the money IMO! I bought a replacement factory guide rod assembly from Ruger & my SR9 functions perfectly again.

 

[Stimo3]

The only part I agree on is they look good, but that's where it ends. I had a very bad experience with a Bedair stainless guide rod for my SR9. I had well over 2,500 rounds with the factory guide rod & zero failures. After installing the stainless guide rod, I couldn't even rack the slide by hand because it was binding up so badly. This resulted in the front of my slide getting chewed up some & could have resulted in the pistol blowing up in my hands. I sent it back & got a refund, but still have a messed up looking slide because of it. Not worth the money IMO! I bought a replacement factory guide rod assembly from Ruger & my SR9 functions perfectly again.

Just because you had a bad experience with one doesn't mean everyone else is going to; from the sound of it, it seems like either the rod was defective or there is a defect with the gun, as the guide rods work perfectly in all other SR9's that i've come across. In fact you're the first person that has said they've had a problem with one in their gun and it didn't function as advertised. One bad experience with one gun is bound to happen eventually, you just got unlucky IMO if it actually did damage to the gun, however if i ever install a new part on the gun that's not factory, no matter how much it's proven, i always watch for unnecessary wear as every gun is a little bit different. If you would hve kept a closer eye on things this would have been prevented, and if you installed the SS guide rod and notice you couldn't even rack it with your hand, you shouldn't have tried to shoot with it an should have immediately sent it back for a replacement rod/refund as it obviusly wasnt operating right. Shooting the gun when you already notice something isn't right is just asking for problems.

IMO you can't blame anyone but yourself since you admit to not even being able to barely rack a round into the camber with your hand, so obviously something was wrong, yet you fired the gun anyways with the guide rod installed like that. If it was that tight and obviously not functioning correctly you should have immediately sent it back and had him inspect it for defects/get a refund and you wouldnt have had an issue. But shooting a gun that you've installed an aftermarket part on and it doesn't function correctly afterwords should immediately be taken out no questions, not fired to "see if it works." Again, just asking for a problem like you obviously had.

 

[insaneranger]

IMO if it actually did damage to the gun, however if i ever install a new part on the gun that's not factory, no matter how much it's proven, i always watch for unnecessary wear as every gun is a little bit different. If you would hve kept a closer eye on things this would have been prevented, and if you installed the SS guide rod and notice you couldn't even rack it with your hand, you shouldn't have tried to shoot with it an should have immediately sent it back for a replacement rod/refund as it obviusly wasnt operating right. Shooting the gun when you already notice something isn't right is just asking for problems.

IMO you can't blame anyone but yourself since you admit to not even being able to barely rack a round into the camber with your hand, so obviously something was wrong, yet you fired the gun anyways with the guide rod installed like that. If it was that tight and obviously not functioning correctly you should have immediately sent it back and had him inspect it for defects/get a refund and you wouldnt have had an issue. But shooting a gun that you've installed an aftermarket part on and it doesn't function correctly afterwords should immediately be taken out no questions, not fired to "see if it works." Again, just asking for a problem like you obviously had.

Wow! You acted pretty offended that I had problems with the guide rod. Do you make them or something? Did you even read my post before you started making up facts off the top of your head? If you read the post I said I couldn't rack the slide & sent it back for a refund. I never shot the pistol! Read a post & use a few brain cells before you go on a half page rant about someting you obviously don't know anything about. Sounds like you're one of those guys that just tries to start trouble on someone elses post! Now take a Midol & chill out. :shock: