Long barrel #1-.45-70

[Major T]

I have a desire for a long barrel .45-70. There are several Lyman cased sets floating around on the auction sites. As I recall, the older Ruger rifles were hit or miss on accuracy. I rigged a 77 in .270 for my hunting partner B-I-L a bunch of years ago and lucked into a winner. Others I have had-not so good. My question: Take a chance on a Lyman (28") or buy a nicely figured used #1 and have it re barreled by one of the better makers??? Your opinions solicited. Thanks jt

PS: The Lyman case and accessories are nice, but not essential for this project. I have a .40-65 Shiloh-too heavy and case capacity seriously challenged for black. Could re chamber to .40-82 or re barrel. Have an old roller that could be re barreled for black only. Have had two 1885s. They were just not quite it.

 

[VladTepes]

Mate has a 458RCBS - that works very well for black powder.

Using smokeless loads the recoil is.... lively !

 

[picketpin]

It's SELDOM the barrel, wherher it is a Douglas, Wilson or a Ruger barrel.

There are many reasons that the best #1 will never shoot as well as a seriously good bolt gun. Type of action and where the camming forces go, 1 piece versus 2 piece stocks and other design feature make it that way..

My experience is that #1s are individual and contrary beasts and each is an entity unto itself.

I have lots of duplicates especially in 22-250, 6mm and 257 Roberts.

Of the 22-250s 2 are early Douglas Match Grade barrels, non prefix and early 130 prefix. Two of them are post 1975-1976 and have Wilson barrels. Number 5 is a 133 serial numbered gun with a Ruger barrrel. Those 5 are all "B" configuration.

Of the five all shoot sub MOA. No two shoot the same load including powder, primer, bullet and even sometimes case, best. Three shoot the same load WELL.

Some have Hicks Acccurizers and some don't and fore arm pressure varies from rifle to rifle.

For me the fun is that most take time and load work and rifle tweaking to shoot it's very best.

Of the three most accurate #1s I own the single most accurate is a 22BR in "B" configuration that was made by simply punching a factory 218 Bee. That barrel was made by Wilson. The second most accurate is a semi custom 257 Roberts made in 1970 as soon as I knew what the "V" profile barrel was going to be. That barrel was built and installed by Shilen and is 28 3/8 inches long. The third most accurate is a factory 2PPC "V" that "probably" has a Ruger barrel based on time frame and serial number. All shoot shoot sub .500 groups on a regular basis with the load each prefers.

So three barrels from three manufacturers so it isn't the barrel.

Out of the 50 or so #1s I own there are rifles with barrels from Douglas, Shilen, Hart, Krieger, Lllija, Wilson and Ruger. Yet the single most accurate is a factory Wilson barrel that was simply rechambered from 218 Bee to 22BR. That would argue against spending a whole lot on a barrel. I know I did early on when I bought into all the hype about Wilson barrels. However over time it became pretty obvious that the barrel quality/price was seldom the issue when it came to accuracy, especially with all the other variables present in a #1..

The only time I buy an after market/custom barrel for a #1 any more is if the cartridge I want to play with can't be made by simply rechambering a factory barrel, regardless of maker.

If you are worried about the Wilson barrels the "problem" as reported took place in 1974 when Ruger first shifted to from making a few thousand #1s each year to 7000+ . The Lyman Centenials were made in 1978 well after the Wilson barrels issues.

Nearly all of the Wilson barrels that didn't shoot well had a lot more to do with long throats than any defect in quality or bore tolerance. Early 7x57s were particularly guilty. My first year 7x57 "A" is the least accurate #1 I own. Mostly that's because I don't want to shoot 175 grain round nosed bullets and anything lighter is so short that it has to take a heck of a jump to get to the lands.

I'm not a big bore shooter and don't own a #1 in 45-70 but the youngest brother, like you wanted a long barreled 45-70. He bought and uses a Lyman Grade 2. Seems to shoot fine.

As to the rifles themselves, I personally would opt for the Lyman over a standard 45-70 "S," rebarrled. You will have at least the same if not more in a donor rifle, a custom barrel and the smithing to installed it. Once you are done you'll have for what you want but as you know, if you ever sell, it's just another used 45-70 and would NOT bring any more than any other used 45-70 #1. You would never recover the cost of building the rifle.

On the other hand for about the same money you could buy a Lyman Grade 2 and use it and in the end as long as you didn't abuse it and kept the case and accutraments intact it'll probably shoot as well AND hold it's value better, even if fired.

There are few rifles in the Lyman configuration, maybe 35-40 that were unmarked, probably overruns BUT they tend to bring more than the marked rifles,

the best

Ross

 

[roofinspector]

I think I would just rebarrel with one of the big name blanks. That way you know what you are getting. One can specify parameters of the blank, as well as the chambering criterias. A lot of smiths consider putting on a takeoff barrel the same labor as starting with a blank.

If one shoots a lot, one can develop an appreication for the interior qualities of the aftermarket barrel blank.

 

[Jason at Lipsey's]

Major T,

There might be something coming out in the near future that will work for you.

 

[Major T]

Gentlemen. I appreciate all your comments. Jason, Thank you for the heads up. I can wait a few months.

Ross, a special thank you for the detailed evaluation based on a a lot of experience. I think your writing style gives your identification away. If you are whom I think you are, I have been a long time admirer! If not, you still do a great job and deserve accolades. I think the kickers are that my past #1s were all female (not a bad thing) and they all required different treatment, which you fully described. In retrospect, I agree that it may have been other than barrels. Also, resale. I likely do not have more than several good years left and resale will be important to me (or my heirs, which ever the case may be.)

Again, many thanks. Jack

 

[picketpin]

Jack: You are welcome and thanks.

I can appreciate the age/time thing. From the 70s on I didn't think twice about buying custom/after market barrels and doing, okay, having somebody do, whatever I wanted.

It was lots of fun and I got exactly what I wanted and I didn't normally sell anything once it came home so resale wasn't an issue.

Over the years as I got more #1s and way more time shooting and reloading them I sort of figured out that for all practical purposes a new take off barrel from the factory would work for most of the semi customs/wild cats, but not all. Then I'm fine with buying an aftermarket barrel and having the work done to get exactly what I want.

As I get older I've learned a bit more. In the last 3 years I've spent well over $3000 having the smith re-install the factory barrels on early/collectable #1s that I used for donor rifles especially non prefix and early 70s guns. I pulled apart a first year, 1970 22-250 "V" and used it for a donor.. Heck, I even used a 300 Win Mag "V" as a donor. The one saving grace is that I'm such a pack rat/hoarder that I've held onto the factory original barrels. The above figure does NOT include rounding up 9-10 #1s or #1/#3 actions to put the modified barrels onto. I tend to use common caliber/configuration #1s from the 80s and 90s as donors now. Of course I also know a Hell of lot more about #1s than I did in the 70s and 80s In some cases I simply put the correct barrel, either original or replacemnt factory barrel back on a rifle and put the wildcated/custom barrel under the bench. The 225 "B" shot just fine but in the large scheme of things was a silly thing to make.

Like I said, I no longer use/buy after market/custom barrels for projects unless it's simply the ONLY way to get what I want.

Roof and I ALWAYS disagree on this one. He has an advantage that most of us don't in that he can and does, do his own work.

A $250-$400 barrel blank is usually less than half of the total cost of getting the barrel on and the rifle ready to shoot.

My wifes swears her greatest fear is I'll fall over dead and leave her with all these guns to deal with. I keep telling her not to worry, she'll go first. She is starting to lose her sense of humor as time goes on and we age and is rapidly starting to think that this is NOT a especially "cute" response.

If I were in your shoes, Ii'd buy the Lyman or wait for Lipsey to do, whatever they are planning. By the way Jason, thanks.

Ross

 

[roofinspector]

Yeah, Ross is as wordy as me. I reckon we both have an appreciation for the no.1, abeit different viewpoints.

If one goes directly to the barrel makers, one will pay the retail price. There are ways around such, but some cannot be convienced that Walmart sells the same goods as the high dollar stores.......cheaper. Money is not a big deal, just the idea of overpaying on my part I reckon.

I can do my own work, just like many others. Learned on my own over the years of hard knocks in such a hobby. Working the various disciplines as I need them; so one day I will be able to do it all.

Working on a takeoff barrel now, (what was I thinkin?). Nothing is square, true. Barrel is out of time for the sights, the chamber is egg shaped, threading is chattered, bore looks like the Grand Canyon bottom, just the typical barrel I reckon. I was advised against doing the rework, but wanted to branch out..................never again, this one has me back over; only premium blanks are going on the lathe from now on.

The takeoff barrels that I have will serve other uses.

Everyone does their own thing, or has it done for them; hopefully the new rifle will do one good whatever it is or was.

 

[CLAYPOOL]

I purchased my first # 1 in 1978 a 22-250 that the orginal owner had not been able to make shoot good enought for him. I had it for a few years with Target blocks on it and finally had a local man remove the blocks and he machined a set of Weaver mounts custom fit to the barrel. Mr. Taylor keep the blocks and was very upset that he had made a small scratch on the blocks while using his lathe. More setting around with a steady strem of rifles in + out of the picture. Still have it with a much bettwer scope on it now. With a slightly Hotter load of H 380 will start to put them inside of a 1 inch aiming block. Very nice wood and its a "V". Serial number...130-01149. Could some of the more knowledged on this board date this for me and what ever else they can tell me. Thanks in advance...CLAYPOOL

 

[picketpin]

Claypool: I'd be willing to bet that it's either 1970 or 1971 based on the serial number. You can call Ruger and the girls in Records can tell you what and when it shipped.

My guess is it has the first checkering pattern, scope blocks originally set for a long, externally adjustable scope like a Unertl, Lyman or Redfield and a 3 screw (adjustable) trigger. As an added plus it in all likelyhood has a Douglas Match Grade barrel. ;-)

If you continue to tinker and find the load your rifle likes, you should be able to find a load that SHOOTS.

The non prefix 1967-1969 and the early prefix 130-0000 up through somewhere between 130-06xxx - 130-08xxx had Douglas barrels.

Ruger didn't switch to Wilson barrels till late 1972, early 1973. The "V" #1 was first produced in 1970 in 22-250. The following year, 1971, they added the 25-06.

Ruger will/can giveyou the exact date it shipped if you ask.

the best

Ross

 

[DavidMc116]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=240023446

 

[mike-c]

Greetings All,

I came very close to buying a stainless 45-70 number one, but the weight was too light. I then considered the 458 magnum, but the cost of the brass, dies, and it is no longer made. Do not want the Lott, for the same reason.

Yes, I could make up a heavy barrel model for myself, but the nearest gunsmith is a 100 miles away. There are no easy or cheap alternatives, unless Lipsey comes out with a heavy barrel for a 45-70 number one. In stainless with sights please, and I would not mind paying an extra hundred or two, for a good heavy 45-70. I am not looking for a collector, but would like a shooter. :oops:

Mike 8)

 

[captainkirk]

Greetings All,

I came very close to buying a stainless 45-70 number one, but the weight was too light. I then considered the 458 magnum, but the cost of the brass, dies, and it is no longer made. Do not want the Lott, for the same reason.

Yes, I could make up a heavy barrel model for myself, but the nearest gunsmith is a 100 miles away. There are no easy or cheap alternatives, unless Lipsey comes out with a heavy barrel for a 45-70 number one. In stainless with sights please, and I would not mind paying an extra hundred or two, for a good heavy 45-70. I am not looking for a collector, but would like a shooter. :oops:

Mike 8)

I guess I just don't see the logic of the 458 brass and dies being too expensive. How many cases do you need? I have had my 458 #1 for many years now and the 100 cases I started with are nowhere near being worn out. The dies cost the same as any other die. Even though the rifle is no longer catalogued, that does not mean they are not easy to find or cannot be acquired at relatively low prices. The 458 is not one of the most desired calibers for this rifle and many have been sold in near-new condition with a partial box of factory loads...

I bought mine because I could not afford the Lyman model. I spent $489 shipped for mine when the Lymans were around twice that. If you have the money up front, I'd say go for one of the Lyman models and enjoy it for what it is. I doubt you will want for accuracy from that model and you could re-sell it for what you paid for it.

captainkirk

PS if you are not in a hurry, it sounds like it may be worthwhile to wait for what Lipsey's may have soon.

 

[Major T]

captain kirk, you are right about one thing for sure (perhaps others!) Folks like to buy .458s Not many shoot them more than a few times.

Kind of like one of my hands. He won a .45 colt derringer as a door prize at a meeting. He showed it to me. I ask him if he would like a lifetime supply of ammo for it. Now the guy likes all kinds of free stuff, so the answer was yes. I opened my ammo closet and gave him three rounds. His quizzical look prompted me to say that he would shoot it once, load two and never shoot it again. He was gone about 20 minutes and came back to report that I had it pegged correctly.

Ross, you are correct about the mess you leave if there are a lot of guns involved. My favorite cousin's airplane fell out of the sky a few years ago. His heirs asked me to dispose of his property. Expensive farm equipment sold like hotcakes. Even the salvage of the plane was easy to sell after NTSB finished their work. About seventy or so guns were involved. You can't find a buyer for a matched pair of ivory/engraved single action Colts just anywhere. I just about gave away an engraved/gold inlayed #1. The really neat stuff sold fairly quickly. Run of the mill Colt's SAAs, 73s, M1-D, Brownings, and other Winchesters, Remingtons, Rugers, Smiths, and etc. went fairly well. Thank goodness he had dumped most of the commeratives at the Vegas show a little earlier. I think we still have a few high end engraved pieces after several years. If and when the economy improves, we are going to give them another shot.

Good day to all, Jack

 

[CLAYPOOL]

Thanks for your help Picket Pin.

 

[DavidMc116]

Major T,

There might be something coming out in the near future that will work for you.

QUICK! All 12 of you collecters holding onto a 1H in 45-70 better dump them fast, before they're just another run of the mill #1. PM me for a quick rescue!

 

[SHOOTER]

Whats the difference in barrel diameter and weight between the #1Lyman, #1S 45/70 , and the new 26inch barrel 45/70? I love the barrel on a 1H...is there a way to get a 1H barrel diameter barrel made for a Ruger#1 and then installed?