LCP SD ammo question

[Peckerwood]

I've put about 150 rounds through my LCP but not any self defense ammo. Recently picked up a box of Gold Dot for carry but was wondering after seeing a youtube video where a guy recommends not carrying a full mag of hollow points because they are more likely to jam. Is this a valid concern?

 

[Cholo]

It hasn't been a problem with mine and GD's are what I use.

 

[Vecco]

Is this a valid concern?

No ..

 

[Strange]

Carried full mag +1 JHP's never had an issue on range....

 

[mpd563]

Ammo preference can vary from gun to gun. You should always try any new ammo through your gun to ensure proper functioning. Try your gun with full magazines of your selected sd load as much as you can afford to shoot of it. (I know sd loads are quite pricey) If it works 100% then it should be just fine to carry it with a full magazine full. I've been carring my LCP with a full magazine of Hornady CD's and never had any kind of issue.

 

[bigtheno]

I was reading and have had several people mention to carry FMJ instead of JHP in a 380acp for penetration purposes, especially in the winter for heavy clothes penetration. Thoughts?

 

[Yawn]

I have heard that too... I am loaded with FMJ's through the winter. The rational makes perfect sense for those of us in colder winter climates.

 

[dacaur]

I was reading and have had several people mention to carry FMJ instead of JHP in a 380acp for penetration purposes, especially in the winter for heavy clothes penetration. Thoughts?

This is wisdom from a time long past, bullet technology has changed. HP's of years ago could gum up and get clogged with cloth and not expand well when shot through layers of clothing. These days though, a good quality HP like gold dot or hornady wont have that problem. Really, most of the "off the shelf" HP's sold as SD rounds today wont have an issue, its the "cheap" hollowpoints, such as those sold in gun show reloads you have to watch out for. I wouldn't worry about using anything marketed as SD ammo from a major MFG. Personally though, I figure police probably use what works right? In my neck of the woods, the police use speer gold dots, even in the winter, so thats what I use...

 

[ACM73]

dacaur,

with a more powerful cartridge I would agree, but with the limited penetration of the 380 I think this is a valid concern. Even the buffalo bore webpage mentions using bullets other than hollow points in a 380 to increase penetration.

 

[dacaur]

My comment was only on the t-shirt vs heavy clothing debate, Not that you can get acceptable penetration from a .380 HP... I mean, we all know that a .380 isnt really the "best" choice for self defence right? When you look at the tests, your average .380 HP only penetrates about 6-8", even without factoring in obsticals. It simply doesn't have the penetration that the FBI recommends. The problem was never that the heavy clothing would "stop" the bullet, there is no way a leather jacket worn over a flannel shirt or even 4 layers of denim is going to just "stop" a bullet traveling 1000fps.. the problem is that when passing through heavy clothing, the bullet doesn't expand reliably. Many modern bullets have pretty well solved this problem (hornady FTX, for one), not all of them for sure, but there are good .380 HP choices to penetrate heavy clothing. my point is just that with the right bullets, heavy clothing doesn't really have an affect on penetration. All I am saying is, if you are comfortable carrying a .380 in t-shirt weather, you should be just as comfortable carrying it in heavy clothing weather. If you are not happy with 6-8 inches of penetration, then dont use HP bullets in a .380, regardless of the weather outside. Using a FMJ will give you plenty of penetration 20+ inches, but unless you hit a vital, thats all its going to do, penetrate and keep on going. Personally, I would take my chances with 6-8 inches of expanding penetration...

That said, I do carry 9mm gold dots, not .380, but only because when It came time to buy my CCW, my final choice was between the LCP and Kel-tec PF9, and the PF9 felt better in my hand than the ruger, so thats what I got... I would have been just as comfortable carrying .380, after having done a much of research on it while searching for my CCW....
IF you are going to carry hollow points in a .380, just make sure they are bonded hollowpoints to prevent problems with core-jacket separations and you will be fine.

 

[Yawn]

This is wisdom from a time long past,

How do you know this? Can you site studies corraborating your statements?

 

[boomer1]

My elsiepea is still teething, I have put 100 Federal rounds downrange with her. I plan on putting at least another 200 rounds, 100@ Rem and Fiocchi, downrange before I think about SD rounds. I will say that I have Rem GS and Hornady CD rounds in mind when I feel that the pistol is ready for CCW.

boomer 8)


Moulon Labe

 

[dacaur]

This is wisdom from a time long past,

How do you know this? Can you site studies corraborating your statements?

No, i dont have any studies off hand, but its pretty common knowledge that jacket-core separation before the advent of bonded bullets used to be a much bigger problem than it is today. generally, which you get a jacket-core separation, the lead core acts pretty much like a non HP from that point on, so the wisdom used to be that in certain situations, such as winter when people wear heavy clothing, you might as well just use FMJ bullets, because they will have more mass than a HP, and more mass means more damage. Thats the whole reason for the invention of bonded bullets. If it weren't a problem, we wouldn't have a need for bonded bullets and such... With the bullets of yesteryear, it was common after passing through a barrier such as heavy clothing or glass for the jacket to separate and penetrate only a few inches, while the core would continue on, but unexpanded or expanded very little. Obviously its still going to do damage, just not as much as am expanded hollowpoint. It is also going to penetrate further than a proper HP that didn't experience the core-jacket failure. If thats whats going to happen every time, some would say it might be better to have a FMJ bullet rather than a HP, because the FMJ is going to have more mass. "Traditional" HP bullets use a swagged lead core lubed up and pressed into a copper jacket. When It passes through a barrier, there is a good chance the lead core can come out of the jacket. With today's bonded bullets, you dont have that problem, as the lead core is mechanically or chemically "bonded" to the copper jacket to prevent separation.

A FMJ bullet WILL penetrate further than a HP bullet, by a lot. We are talking 6-8 inches for a HP out of a .380, vs 20+ inches for a FMJ... (The advantage of a HP in ANY caliber isnt penetration, its the larger wound channel, a FMJ of any caliber will penetrate further than a HP, but will do less damage on its way through) Now, think about the thickness of a human body.... when your FMJ bullet comes out the other side, its still going fast enough to do some damage to someone else. With a core-jacket separation of a HP bullet, you get the same overpenetration problem, the jacket stops within a few inches, while the core continues on through the target.... Thats the whole reason bonded bullets were invented, to keep the jacket and core together so that you (hopefully) dont have the overpenetration issues...

 

[Yawn]

A FMJ bullet WILL penetrate further than a HP bullet, by a lot. We are talking 6-8 inches for a HP out of a .380, vs 20+ inches for a FMJ... (The advantage of a HP in ANY caliber isnt penetration, its the larger wound channel, a FMJ of any caliber will penetrate further than a HP, but will do less damage on its way through)

But how much of that 6 - 8 inches is taken away if the assailant is wearing a heavy parka or thick leather jacket?

 

[dacaur]

A FMJ bullet WILL penetrate further than a HP bullet, by a lot. We are talking 6-8 inches for a HP out of a .380, vs 20+ inches for a FMJ... (The advantage of a HP in ANY caliber isnt penetration, its the larger wound channel, a FMJ of any caliber will penetrate further than a HP, but will do less damage on its way through)

But how much of that 6 - 8 inches is taken away if the assailant is wearing a heavy parka or thick leather jacket?

Thats the whole point people dont understand,
you dont LOSE penetration through heavy clothing,
you GAIN it, .... The bullet expands less, so penetrates further....
here are some tests done by gold dot and winchester.
Sorry the pics are so big, I tried making them smaller,
but then you cant read it...

 

[yogiboobooranger]

After 200 rounds of breakin with FMJ, I tore the LCP down and gave it a fluff and buff, polishing the feed ramp with mother's and a cloth by hand while watching a movie. I had only one FTF during the first 200 rounds anyway but I wished to insure the feeding of JHP ammo. I then purchased Gold Dot SD ammo, and shot 100 rounds of it through the LCP and had no issues what so ever. Now to insure feeding issues are not present while CCW this firearm, I load each magazine with alternating FMJ and HP ammo. I have the chamber loaded with Gold Dot JHP and then the next round to feed after firing is the FMJ, and then another JHP, and so on and so on. I learned this concept while serving as a Police Officer, with the thought being that clothing and barrier issues will change. JHP ammo may not penetrate glass or various wood barriers, whereas the full metal jacket just might! And your feeding issues for the first two shots are non existant for the most part. This of course is just my TWO CENTS, but this method has not failed me with any of my semi autos.

 

[dacaur]

I have the chamber loaded with Gold Dot JHP and then the next round to feed after firing is the FMJ, and then another JHP, and so on and so on. I learned this concept while serving as a Police Officer, with the thought being that clothing and barrier issues will change. JHP ammo may not penetrate glass or various wood barriers, whereas the full metal jacket just might!

Your logic is faulty here. The problem is NOT that a JHP "might not penetrate" through glass or other barriers, the problem is that it may not EXPAND after penetrating those barriers, acting more like a FMJ round at that point, though with less mass than a FMJ round would have, due to core-jacket separation or simply less starting mass due to the HP cavity (Of course, with modern bullets, both are much less of a problem...
)... The one exception where you definitely would get LESS penetration after going through auto glass, but thats only a problem on the first shot anyway, so by your theory, your FIRST round should be a FMJ, THEN a HP....

Personally, Ill just make them all HP's so I dont have to worry about overpenetration in the event there IS no barrier between me and the bad guy. Plus, I want every trigger pull to be exactly the same, and having different recoil for each round just seems a bad idea to me when I am running on instinct...

 

[yogiboobooranger]

Actually my logic is not wrong..I am loaded for a perp confrontation FTF, first and foremost. Secondly, Jacketed hollow point ammo in lower calibers tend to fragment when going thru glass or other barriers (go here if you want to see proof:http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm ). Now we are dealing with a very low powered caliber when talking .380. So as I said, learning from Police and FBI training of the past, I always load alternate rounds. Incidentally both of the rounds are very similar in bullet grain weight so there is very little difference in recoil.
Besides. the LCP is only a BUG for me, always in a pocket or ankle carried. My preferred sidearm is my 1911 .45ACP. But I also may carry my Glock 23, or my Ruger SR9C. And just so you know, I load these the same way. Again just only my way and I am in no way trying to persuade anyone to follow suit. Good luck to all!

 

[Bigboreshooter]

your average .380 HP only penetrates about 6-8", even without factoring in obsticals.

Hornady's website shows closer to 11" of penetration for the 380 Critical Defense load after passing through heavy clothing.

 

[dacaur]

your average .380 HP only penetrates about 6-8", even without factoring in obsticals.

Hornady's website shows closer to 11" of penetration for the 380 Critical Defense load after passing through heavy clothing.

Yea thats after penetrating heavy clothing... like I said, most barriers make a HP bullet penetrate MORE, becuase they make it expand LESS. A test in bare gelatin or light clothing will show 6-8" of penetration..... The more a bullet expands, the less it penitrates. I notice I did word that wrong in that particular post....