Ivory Grips - Factory and ???

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we were told by a grip maker that it depended on the volume of grips being made, if only a set or two at a time, no need to "mark or number" them to keep "set" together...have seen them BOTH ways from Ruger, again must have been a different vendor at the time, now all these later, with all the "fake" having been made, and passed around, there are far MORE sets of ivory , and even stags , than Ruger ever sold in all those years.......
the pair pictured above, do indeed have the "dished" out area where those marks would be found, and yes obviously, still another 'point' that any gifted individual with time, and $$$$ dreams in their heart, could "fake", as I will always say, "if they look TOO good, ,caveat emptor baby"... 8)
especially when you are about to pay the big bucks or stupid money.......all the ones we ever came across except for ONE pair that we let the late Bob C purchase, all came on guns with NO extra charge for the grips............hhhmmm ( and Laura has turned down LOTS of $$$ for any of hers.....) :roll:
 

tommygun

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Gary still don't have the picture posting thing worked out. They really don't look any different than they did. The one broken in 2 pieces is now a single grip panel. I was under the impression that the cracks would be less noticeable. Not true! When I got them back I inquired with another grip maker and he agreed that there is no way to cosmetically improve them. The medallion and escutcheon holes were "enlarged" a bit to relieve the pressure that had caused them to crack. You can't tell. Unfortunately the medallions then had to be epoxied in place. So I know have a serviceable pair of factory ivory stags :)
 

chet15

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One bit of information that I haven't really shared with anybody because the "factory stag/ivory" question can be pretty toxic at times.
The big question I always had is that the very first invoice for the first six pair of ivory that were ordered (from J.L. Galef) cost Ruger $11 a pair. I don't remember where I saw a pic of the invoice now, but it was published and the invoice says something to the effect of "with installed medallions". These grips were used to put on the six "A" through "F" letter prototype Single-Sixes so the guns could get out to gun writers for review, because the black checkered hard rubber panels were not yet available. I will note that every pair seen on these letter prototypes do have the medallions in identical positions. The grips appear identical in all the pictures.
My nagging question was...if this invoice says "with installed medallions", do the other stag/ ivory invoices from the other 3 makers say the same? Or why don't any/all of those invoices say something about installed medallions (rightfully, another step) before being sent to Ruger, if indeed they were installed by the makers? (Three different companies after J.L. Galef).
By far the overwhelming opinion (not mine) is that each of the manufacturers "must" have installed the medallions. This helps to substantiate in everybody's mind the reason for the wide range of locations that the medallions can be found on stag and ivory that today are considered factory, again by a majority of owners and collectors.
But the question burned...do any of those other stag and ivory invoices say "with installed medallions"?
I finally got an answer from JD a few years ago who said, no...none of the later invoices say "with installed medallions".
So then I brought up the thought with him that there was a very good possibility then that Ruger must have been the one who installed the medallions...to which he replied...maybe Ruger did some....maybe the makers did some...we'll never know. Yes...we will never know, but it is still a burning question, eh? Why don't any of the other three makers invoices say "with installed medallions" when it was probably Ruger's specific instructions that J.L. Galef make those first six pair "with medallions" as noted on the invoice?
Excepting the invoices that are known to have been destroyed, there are 72 other invoices to Ruger for stag and ivory grips in JD's addendum that do not mention Ruger's specific instructions to install medallions.

JD also said that breakage at the factory was not a big deal for stag or ivory because there was plenty of margin in the markup...that their losses could easily be paid for. I can't quite see how this could be a true statement, and maybe JD was just speaking off the cuff, but it is published in his most recent book that Ruger was charged $8.25 for each pair ivory from Superior Pearl and Horn. After that, they purchased pairs of ivory XR3 from American Gun Handle and Novelty Co., for $8.10 a pair.
Ruger paid $4.25 a pair from Superior Pearl and Horn for pairs of stag. The book doesn't say if this price got any better from the other three stag grip suppliers that Ruger later used.
OK...on page 319 of the same book there is a copy of the August 1, 1955 Jobbers Sheet which lists the Jobber price for ivory at $9 and stag at $5 (Retail was $16.50 and $8.50 respectively, and the dealer price was $12.50 and $6.45 respectively).
This makes a grand best profit on Ruger's end of 90 cents (!!) a pair for every pair of ivory they shipped to Jobbers and 75 cents for every pair of stag shipped out. Break a pair of ivory and you need to sell nine more pair of ivory to break even. That's not my idea of "plenty of profit". Even if Ruger sold ivory direct to the customer, they would have made a maximum of $8.40 profit on ivory. Break one pair and you have to sell another pair to break even.
So then...JD's addendum to his book states that of the first fifty pair of ivory received from Superior Pearl and horn, 21 pair were returned four months later. Of the first 50 pair of stag received from Superior Pearl and Horn, 35 pair had been returned nearly five months later.
Why would they have been returned? Grips out of spec somehow? I would think that Ruger would have sent a blueprint of some sort to the grip maker, or even a grip frame, so the grip maker could at least get the shape of the grip right, to fit the grip frame, after all...why would you cut them out incorrectly when these grips are only going to fit the XR3 frame? Get them wrong and the maker starts losing all of that lovely profit. Whatever the problem though...it must have been solved as there weren't any other pair of ivory returned.
Broken grips? In my opinion, something was wrong with the spec, and the critical point in any of ivory or stag would have been either fit or more likely the thickness of the panel at the medallion area, already weakened by the medallion stem. The thickness of the medallion area has to be precise. That the grip makers made them precise in the medallion area can be seen in what I consider the earliest stag grips (good dark color and nice burl) because these have a very noticeable tapered slab cut from the middle of the grip down to the medallion area. I suppose the maker could hand "grind" the slab cut down to spec but it would seem to be a lot easier if some sort of template were used, just like gun stocks are pre-shaped. Time is money, so why would you make such drastic slab cuts by hand?

Why a precise thickness at the medallion area? Not only to match up as good as possible with the rear of the cylinder frame, but also because of the medallion thickness. I believe the medallion hole drilling was done in a two step process. Drill the medallion stem hole and medallion inset, and flip it over and drill the counterbore on the backside. If the grip is too thick, you'll crack the grip when you stake the medallion. Too thin and you have the stem and or top of the medallion poking above either surface and a rotating medallion (I think stag panels could get away somewhat from having a portion of the medallion area too thin...but not the majority of it).
Don't get me wrong...rotated medallions are not a diagnostic of faked stag or ivory...it could also mean the panels have shrunk slightly.

Just some food for thought.
Chet15
 

chet15

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DougGuy...I'm not saying these grips are wrong...but just remember that one of the favorite ways of "aging" a pair of ivory panels is to soak them in tea. This was initially a favorite technique of one of the most well-known "factory ivory" makers in California.
I don't remember if it is hot water that will give them the cracks at the bottom or not (I do not recommend doing that to ivory!!), but there was also a process for making those cracks.
There are a lot of fake stag and ivory out there. If you like them, buy them...but always...buyer beware!!
Chet15
 

mohavesam

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Rugerville, AZ
...and this is why I just plain avoid stag and ivory grips...

The probability of encountering fakes on the market is so high, because the pricing potential is so drastic! Figure in the organic/polymer compounds now being produced, the advances in industrial faux materials is way ahead of detection methods.
If I had "factory originals" as you probably have here, there is practically no way to document them as genuine anyway!

I could show them to ten crusty old experts and get ten differing opinions? Even the guys selling ivory cannot guarantee they are genuine and actually have no way of proving they are or are not!!!


Show 'em, wear 'em, shoot 'em!
 

DougGuy

Single-Sixer
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chet15 said:
DougGuy...I'm not saying these grips are wrong...but just remember that one of the favorite ways of "aging" a pair of ivory panels is to soak them in tea. This was initially a favorite technique of one of the most well-known "factory ivory" makers in California.
I don't remember if it is hot water that will give them the cracks at the bottom or not (I do not recommend doing that to ivory!!), but there was also a process for making those cracks.
There are a lot of fake stag and ivory out there. If you like them, buy them...but always...buyer beware!!
Chet15

The part about these that is definitely not an aged repro, is the squashed chickens. Even the staking is correct, as is the counterbore. This is likely the strongest statement of originality. Ruger did use different vendors for ivories, and there are cryptic markings that are identified with various runs or periods of ivory shipped by the factory.

I am aware of fakes, but also consider this. When these were made, if you believe that they are originals and correct for the '53 to '58 period, there was no need to make counterfeits because the genuine articles were quite affordable and easy enough to get. So that points back to the medallions being the part that authenticates them. Not only the medallions themselves, but their placement, method of staking, and the counterbore behind them.

If you are the same Chet who initially looked over these photos a few years back, I both respect and appreciate your opinion, if you are a different Chet, then let me add that the Chet who was kind enough to look over the detailed photos mentioned quite a few of the small points of interest and stated at the time that although he is aware of fakes, he did not see anything about these that would lead him to believe that they are anything but the genuine article.

It's a shame that someone has either neglected them in an oily parts box, or artificially aged them quite some time ago, none of which appears recent enough to cast doubt on the authenticity, but even in the company of KNOWN to be genuine ivories of the same age and patina, I feel they would match the documented genuine grips, if there IS such a thing, beyond question.

I currently am the owner of these grips, but am considering offering them for sale. I know what a nice pair of white ones in good shape would be worth, and these are definitely not on the same value as such a set, on the other hand they are what they are and speculation is exactly that, speculation, which won't detract from the value that they do hold. I know what new ivory brings on GB and I would think these would hold somewhat more than what a new set would bring.
 
Joined
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Douguy, those are NOT "squashed" chicken medallions in the grips pictured above, and as for those cracks, that is from "time, age, natural shrinking" process and dirt getting in them............. :wink:

Merry Christmas
 

DougGuy

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Jul 21, 2014
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rugerguy said:
Douguy, those are NOT "squashed" chicken medallions in the grips pictured above, and as for those cracks, that is from "time, age, natural shrinking" process and dirt getting in them............. :wink:

Merry Christmas

Really? My bad, I'm not a collector or not really knowledgeable on the early Ruger production either. I have learned more from this thread about factory ivories than I could have learned from Google, so thank you for that.

Merry Christmas to you and yours as well, and the same for everyone else on this forum!
 

chet15

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DougGuy...yes I would be the same Chet you spoke of. I don't remember looking at the pictures previously, or if I did don't remember seeing the backs of them.
Just made mention of the darkness because that was initially the way to make fake ivory look "old".
I think everybody here on Rugerforum.com knows my opinion on stag and ivory grips with medallions in them.
The problem is, there are those who know how to make a fake pair look "factory", thereby increasing the sale price of the grips.
So the next collector inherits the problem, and so on.
The problem I've always had is originality, because originality should be what makes a pair of factory stag or ivory worth the fair market collector value, instead of "they look right, so lets sell them for another $1,200 more".
Today, with all the pair of stag and ivory that have traded hands from one collector to another since prices skyrocketed, there aren't very many pair that anybody can say are truly factory original without a doubt...Count the 6 pair of ivory on the letter prototype Single-Sixes, the pair of ivory that is on #100 Engraved .357 flattop...maybe a few other pair that were documented and beyond that how do you tell??
There's even two pair of ivory on a well known consecutive pair of Single-Sixes that has at least one panel that is fake...but I guarantee the owner didn't buy them as such, nor does he know what I found in the pictures that I took of then....I didn't even know it till I looked at the pics again.
Then there are the three pair of ivory I saw at a collector's table in Nebraska in the mid '80's. At the time I was just getting hyped about Ruger collecting so asked if I could take the grips off the guns to see how they were numbered on the back. Hmmm...interesting that all three pair of grips had consecutive numbers...then I noticed at least one of the panels had a post '66 medallion in it (might have been three of the panels, don't remember now). So all three pair were fakes. Those three pair are floating around out there somewhere in somebody's collection who believed up and down that they are the real deal. Who knows how many people have inherited the problem with those three pair alone?
Everybody also talks about staking on the back of the medallion. I've seen stag and ivory that have very light hits on the end of that stem...why? Because if you go to cranking on the edge around the rear of the stem you are going to break the panel. I could go on and on...but doesn't matter much because again....those who know how to make stag and ivory look factory, have done it. And today the descriptions of what "factory" should look like are all over the board...not my opinion, but the general thinking right across the board.
Chet15
 
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