How's Your M77 Shooting

[mcknight77]

A rifle that shoots a 2" group at 100 yards (essentially 2MOA) is placing all it's rounds within 1" of the point of aim. At 200 yards it will shoot a 4" group placing all of the rounds within 2" of the point of aim. At 300 yards it will shoot a 6" group, but still placing all of the rounds within 3" of the point of aim.

If you're missing deer at 300 yards with a rifle that shoots 2MOA, it ain't the rifle's fault.

JMHO.

 

[Cholo]

"The first 3 rounds I shot out of a stone cold bbl all grouped within an inch." gjw

:shock: Damn that's good for an ultra lite or any "normal" factory rifle out of the box with no tinkering. I also have a Ruger .243RL bought new in '85. With 42 grs of 4350 and a 100 gr Nosler Partition, it will shoot 1 1/2" 3 shot groups day long. It's a little on the warm side, and maybe I could shrink it a bit with more experimenting, but I'm cool the results and the 30 or so deer hit with them didn't know it wasn't a 1" rifle. I guess they didn't have time to care.

Mess with it if you want, but I doubt you'll improve it much better than the 1" 3 shot groups you're getting now. I think you have a winner big time as it is.

 

[Chukar hunter]

I have a M77 mkII LH in 30-06. I put a Nikon Buckmaster 3X9 scope on it. I sighted it in temporarily with Federal 150 grain factory loads. At 100 yds, I was getting 1 1/2" groups with three shots, two of which were right on top of each other. I sized the chamber and started reloading with 48 grains of IMR 4895, and 150 grain Sierra Pro Hunter flat base bullets. Groups shrunk to 3/4" I noticed some primer flattening(very slight) with the factory loads. I think the rifle will definately do better than I will.

 

[6mmsl]

For years I have been reading posts about accuracy with all brands of rifles, sayings like mine will shoot 1/2" groups allday if I do my part and the like.Then they post a picture of the one target they shot that day that was sub-MOA and forget the other targets that were not. Magazine writers do it to showing you the best groups that they shot ommiting the rest.

Then the posts turn on how to tune your rifle with bedding, floating,trigger work,etc so you can shrink your groups from 1" to an amazing 1/2" at a 100 yards.Then it gets even more focused that if you can't slide the dollar bill under the barrel between the stock then for some reason you will never be able to get that rifle to shoot again.

I shoot weekly and have many rounds through my 6 Ruger rifles.My groups vary weekly with the same ammo. Some weeks are good some are not but, the point is things change. Wind,weather,me,the way I hold the rifle that day,( whatever) and I used to get hung up on why. Then the next week all was back on par and I was shooting well without changing anything.

Things change don't cut,sand,glue,polish anything until you are absolutly sure you have a defect. My contention is that most modern rifles shoot well out of the box. Make sure all factory screws and torx are tight scope too and go shoot.

Ammo is a variable buy or re-load a variety and shoot till you find one that groups well. I don't excessively over-heat my barrels and yes I have a solid rest either bags or a benchrest platform.I don't rest my barrel on the bag and rest it on the stock just behind the swivel stud so it is flat and stable.

1-1 1/2" groups are normal and great at 100 yards. Anything better is a bonus then move out to 200 yards and guess what things will change again. Ammo that shoots sub-moa at 100 may not at 200 if fact it may not shoot well at all at longer distants. In my opinion 100 yards is easy to shoot MOA or close with a good rifle in any brand. All mine will do it after 20 to 40 rounds the barrel is broken in if that really is a great concern and there are arguements to that too.

At the range I shoot at we have all kinds 1st timers and benchrest pros with 1o,ooo dollar rifles and taylored handloads and they might shoot sub MOA 50% of the time more than me but who cares we are having fun. We all want to shoot well we have time and energy ,money into our sport and we want to excel but I don't think we should chop our rifles up for a 1/2" on paper.

Go shoot , have fun and if you think some modification will make you have more fun then do it but, I would not believe anyone that says that modifications are necessary and the norm to get a great shooting rifle or for that matter believe that every group they shoot is sub-moa and for some reason you do not have a real shooter until you can accomplish that.

No one does every time out hang out at the range and watch you will see.

Steve-

 

[Sig685]

Steve land, I enjoyed your post and in many ways, I agree with you and actually have made many of the points in your post right here many times. When I frequented public ranges, I rarely saw anyone shoot MOA or even 2MOA, let alone sub-moa. In fact most times, people could barely hit the paper at 100 yards. The resulting groups were more like large crowds; the shooters would put a lot of lead downrange and just pepper the target. Every once in a while, I would witness somebody actually put 3 shots inside of 2MOA and just go wild about it.

However, (you knew I was going to say that, didn't you?) I some ways I differ with you. I guess I must be the exception to your last statement, but then again I can also introduce you to many of my fellow competitors who will be happy to show you a sub half-MOA group at 100 yards, EVERY TIME we shoot.

On another thread here, I describe some of the things I have done to my M77 to make it more accurate; believe me when I write this, that M77 with my regular match handloads will pump bullets into miniature groups much smaller than MOA when I or my fellow competitors rated say Expert or higher, are driving the rifle. If all of a sudden, I can't do that with my rifle, something has gone drastically wrong.

If I cannot do that, shot after shot at 100 yards, I have no business at 300, 600 or 1000 yards and should simply return my NRA classification cards, along with the trophies and the awards I collected over the years and go back to shooting an out-of-the-box Mini-14 with surplus ammo at 50 yards and be happy when I can hit the paper 1 out of 3 times.

What I am trying to say here, it is only when you WANT to better yourself as a shooter that you will begin your journey in riflemanship. The desire to better yourself will manifest itself when you are trying to enhance your rifle system. For the vast majority of shooters here and anywhere else, they are the weakest link in their rifle system. Once your skills rise to the level where your rifle, scope, ammunition or any such combination actually becomes the barrier to the continued improvement of your rifle system, then you have to take steps to remedy the situation.

The thread here is titled "How's your M77 Shooting" I guess we can add a question mark to the question and then I will answer as follows: after the various adjustments and enhancements made to my M77 and developing a superb load for it and topping it with a proper scope, my M77 shoots incredibly well, thank you for asking. I would venture to say it is arguably the most accurate M77 on the planet and richly deserves the moniker I bestowed upon it, M77 UM (UM for Ultra Match.)

Will I take it hunting? Not on your life, it was not enhanced to do that; it is only good for one thing; F-T/R at 800/900 and 1000 yards. This M77 is unique, there are no others like it.

(Edited to remove the shooting offer. My wife 'explained' "And when are you going to have time to do that with your incessant travel and all the things that need to be done around the house." )

 

[6mmsl]

Sig685,I enjoyed your post as well and for that matter have read many of your posts and have enjoyed those too. Sig685 your knowledge,passion and intelligent constructive criticism is unmatched.

You and your fellow competitors are the exception to my sweeping generaliztion emcompassing the shooting world. You are elite athletes competing at the top of your game at the highest level. I do agree that there is an elite group that can shoot sub-moa everytime yourself included
and I thank you for the correction. I do not see it frequently and I am sure you would agree that it is the exception not the rule. As you stated only with devoted practice and modifications can you consider moving to next level,other comments you made I agree with you also,that the weakest link to a shooting system is the shooter and if you cannot shoot well at 100 yards then you should do your homework and stay put prior to moving out to a further distance.

I guess my post would adresss the other 99% of the shooting world. It always hits a nerve with me when accuracy threads arise and suggestions to improve your groups quickly move to modifications some even prior to a rifle being shot. To your point, shooters feel the need to quickly source a problem with the rifle and for some magical reason that if they apply that mod then all of sudden they will have a shooter. Beliefs that every rifle barrel has to free float or without bedding forget it ,it will never shoot.
I do have rifles with minor modifications triggers,bedding,crowns,etc. Did they shoot better than before my opinion was slightly. Shrinking a group a 1/2 moa is difficult as I am sure you would attest. Again it is not always the rifle.

In my opinion, ammunition would hold 2nd place to the shooter.I would buy or reload every combination I could and test it prior to shaving a barrel channel. This testing would continue at every distances that I was intending to shoot the rifle at as well. In my experience cartridges that shoot well at 100 yards occasionally do not at further distances.

So,back to the thread my Rugers shoot fine. I also really enjoy shooting whether it is an exceptional day or just average.I also hunt and shooting frequently only increases my confidence in the field.

My rifles are hunting rifles as I am sure most are that post on this forum. Mine shoot well for me in fact I think really well. I used to modify my rifles in hopes of shooting better but found out that practice and testing different ammunition I could achieve great results and it was easier and in some cases cheaper than modifications. I will stick to my statement that most modern rifles today(of any brand) will shoot well right out of the box. MOA is great for me at any distant and will accept that everytime and walk away smiling (for you a person shooting a target a half mile away I know you need you need more and know how to get it). As for the free lesson - I learn everytime I shoot or read an article and always work toward bettering myself-no need to check the ego.Your commitment to responding to others posts is inspiring and motivating and will have to work for now, good discussion always has a lesson attached..(Besides I have the yard chores as well).

Thank you for your offer to shoot your rifle I am sure I would be impressed and it looks beautiful no doubt it would rank with the most accurate M77"s around.

Best of luck (skill) in your next competition.

Steve.

 

[Sig685]

Steve land, what the heck is the matter with you? Did you not get the memo? You're supposed to take great offense to every word I write and call me nasty names and question my mental stability. If you're going to actually act civil and make excellent, defensible points, you are going to get ostracized by others here.

I smiled when I saw the word "athlete" applied to me and some of the guys I compete with. I think "anal rifle looney" is more apt. But I will tell you that none of these guys are special, least of all me. If someone wants to become a good shooter, that can be done.

I totally agree with you that current production rifles, with current production standard or premium ammunition, topped by current production riflescopes mounted by someone competent are extremely accurate. Right there you have three of the four major components of the rifle system and given a competent fourth, this system should be at or close to MOA, on demand at 100 yards and probably 200 yards also. This is plenty accurate for hunting as was stated above by other posters here.

The current Ruger M77 gives up nothing in potential accuracy to any other factory rifle. It can be made to shoot very well, out of the box. I totally agree with you on that. The problem comes when somebody buys the cheapest ammo possible or handloads his own without any clue and quality control and mounts the cheapest possible scope from Wal Mart in a plastic blister. You already did the math.

As I said earlier, anybody can become a really good shooter, all it takes is a desire to do so and setting some goals. Competition is the best way to get there and a Ruger M77 is not a bad way to start.

 

[Hugh]

I wouldn't be satisfied with only 1 1/2"-2 1/2" groups @ 100 yds, with a barrel that I DIDN'T let cool between shots.

I've found that lightweights, and ergo lightweight barrels, benefit from some extra "up-pressure" on the barrel bottom just to the rear of the forearm tip - easily temporarily tested via inserting a small piece of business card there, then replacing the card with something permanent if it proves out for your rifle.

.

Had to comment on your post. I've been shooting my M77 .308 since February 1973. There was a little spread to my groups. I slid a 3" x 5" card where you put the business card, groups tightened up. I trimmed the residue of the card with the little blade on my knife, and the card has been there ever since. Rifle still shoots where I think I pointed it. 4X Bushnell Banner scope.

 

[poncaguy]

you shouldn't need more than 3 shots at a deer. So, if you're shooting that good with a cold barrel, what more do you need?

 

[sarco001]

Something else to think about.
The kill area of a Whitetail deer is about eight to ten inches in diameter (the size of a paper plate), if you are able to get a two to three inch group into this area the rest is easy, dressing the deer out.
I shot as a competition shooter in the Army for eight years, admittedly, I was a pretty good shot. Two wives, four kids and thirty years later, I see my heartbeat in the scope shooting big bore rifles. Times change and so do we.
I am lucky to get that much excitement from a hobby.
Keep shootin'!

 

[Retsoff]

I have a Ruger SS MK II in 350 Rem Mag that I bought in 2005. When I first went to the range to shoot it, I used the Remington factory 200 gr ammo, as I had not started to reload for it. My 5-shot 100 yard groups averaged around 3". However, the rifle was new and not yet broken in.

Shortly after the first range visits, I began to reload. Thus far, I've tried reloads with the 220 gr Speer bullet and H322 & IMR 4320 powders. With either of these powders and the Speer bullet, I was able to easily obtain from 1" - 1.5", 5-shot 100 yard groups with no experimentation (ie, taking the specs right out of the Speer #13 Manual). Also, I have just begun to reload the Barnes 200 TSX using TAC powder and, thus far, I've managed to obtain 1.5" groups at 100 yards. Once again, this was using the specs right out of the Barnes #4 Manual.

So, I'm pleased with the performance of my Ruger, which has done quite well for deer hunting, even with its so called crappy trigger. It may not be a bench rest rifle but it was never designed to be. It is, however, entirely adequate for what and where I hunt. BTW the only modification I've done to it is to replace the factory Ruger stock with a Hogue stock. I did this before I ever fired the rifle, as I like the feel of the Hogue stocks. With the Hogue stock, the barrel is free-flaoted, which was not the case with the original Ruger stock.

 

[langenc]

""I've found that lightweights, and ergo lightweight barrels, benefit from some extra "up-pressure" on the barrel bottom just to the rear of the forearm tip - easily temporarily tested via inserting a small piece of business card there, then replacing the card with something permanent if it proves out for your rifle. ""


I just relieve some pressure on mine, 223. Shot some Tue and yesterday and it was like a shotgun. Also cleaned the barrel so we will see!!

 

[wwb]

Whether a rifle is acceptably accurate or not will depend on the intended application, and how demanding the owner is. As others have said, "minute of whitetail" accuracy will satisfy most shooters. Benchrest competition demands "one hole" accuracy, and varminters fall somewhere in between.

I have a tang safety M77 in .30-06 that will shoot a 1-1/2" group with any factory ammo I've tried, and 3/4" groups with handloads.

Several years ago, I bought a M77 Mk II in .243 for coyotes, prairie dogs, woodchucks, and other such critters. After more than a year of floating the barrel, re-introducing pressure points at various places along the forearm, torquing the screws in different sequences, bedding the action, trying handloads with a half-dozen different bullets in 1/2 grain powder steps, I finally gave up and sold it at a gunshow. The best I ever got out of it was a 4" group. I replaced it with a bull-barrel Savage M12 in .223.... bedded it in a Boyd's stock..... 5-shot groups under 1/2" are the norm..... on a windy day, just over an inch. Bowling pins at 300 yards are no sweat.

http://www.hunt101.com/showphoto.php/ph ... user/19827

 

[fyimo]

I've been lucky with my three Ruger Model 77's all with tang safety and made after 1990 in that they are good shooters . I say that based on them being great hunting rifles and not to imply that they are sub moa rifles. They shoot under 1 1/2 inches at a 100 yards and with the right reloads the 300 Win mag will go under an inch when I'm doing my part. The biggest improvement I made on them was have a trigger job done by a good gunsmith. They adjusted the triggers and in one case actually smoothed up some of the parts. A great trigger really helps shooters shoot better and that is the first thing I do when I buy a rifle.

My point is for me as a hunter they are plenty accurate and have taken lots of Deer, Elk, and Antelope over the years so they meet my needs perfectly.