Gunsmithing

[papaSR9]

I asked this on another forum and wanted to see what kind of feedback I could get here.

I was having a conversation earlier today about my next career and Gunsmithing came up. I really do not want to go back to the corporate world but find something that I enjoy and get paid for instead of working to live.

On the outset, I know that this would take a couple of years of study and apprenticeship to begin to be good at it. I do have a mechanical inclination of understanding how things are put together in order for them to work. I know that there is an entire list of things to know and be good at but how can I get started and see if this would be something I would care to pursue?

 

[woodsy]

Do you have any means of support for the present, without going back to "work"? If so, you could find a local gunsmith and ask if you could help out in their shop, as an unpaid helper, for some months. That should be enough time to look the situation over, so to speak. In the corporate world that would be called an "intern" situation.

 

[papaSR9]

I was laid off from a corporate management position with a silver parachute that ends after next month, a fair amount of savings, paid my last child support payment, no car note, moving in with my girlfriend so the only bills I have at the moment is cell phone, a couple of credit cards and basic living expenses. She would be willing to let me see how things go as I could get something part time while I do the 'free' work.'

 

[rugerguy]

getting tougher and tougher to find an 'temp" , intern or apprenticeship type 'gig', in any FULL service shops, so many of them have lots of "help" on standby, friends, buddies and wannabes........used to be the Colorado Trade school in Trinidad was the place to go to learn it ALL, but I've heard they are NOT as "comprehensive" as in the old days, you learned to build and make things from scratch way back......lots of videos and audio tapes out there, and these are mainly on a "make/model" basis would cost a fortune to get them all and learn as much as was needed, then again, many "specialize" these days anyway.............easy of you were young and join the military and get to be an armorer, I was lucky, I got to meet and work with LOTS of them back in the day, I was an apprentice in a gun shop ,had to take everything apart, clean and polish any and ALL the parts, learn to buff and polish, and spent hundreds of hours learning to use hand files and emery paper, then reblue all the parts and put them all back together again..... met armorers from ALL branches of the service and a few guys I grew up with had become "marksman"?? branch service pistol champs. Spent 3 summers at Camp Perry working on 'commercial row' back in the mid 70's. Got to go to some of the gun companies and learn to work on their guns, our shop was trying, and got, to land service/warranty repair contracts with some of them...does this make ME a "gunsmith"?? hardly......never learned heat treating, spring making, building barrels ,or even sharpen cutting tools ( bits) ,let alone how to turn on a lathe or a milling machine, and MY Dad was a tool and die maker !! BUT I CAN do it by 'eye' and by 'hand'.......and got REAL good at it..........
Good luck, and we wish you at least try, tinker, get the general books, LOTS of them out there, and again remember they are make and model specific, so you need a library..................
and at least these days with the computer, its somewhere out there, or on youtube !!!

PS even after you learn 'something' todays cost of insurance ( litigation & liability) you'll be lucky you make any money, we had three shops over the years and the ONLY folks that made the money was the accountants, the state and collecting taxes, the government and their getting all the 'withholding ' for all your employees and the insurance man :shock: 8) :roll:

Thank God I'm 'retired' and it's a 'hobby" :wink:

 

[Chuck 100 yd]

Unless you are already well versed in gunsmithing and do a specialty it is a tough business to try to earn a living at. I have known several that retired from the trade not because they could afford to retire but because they had to. For every Turnbull there are dozens of ma and pa shops that are just funeral homes for wall hangers.
Another problem to avoid is allowing your shop to become a junk yard. People bring in guns that should be scraped out,obsolete and worn out junk that no money can be made on if you do get them running again.

 

[RoninPA]

I would suggest going to a community college, technical college, trade school or whatever they call it now and take machinists and welding classes. Learning to operate a lathe and milling machine, and knowing how to weld (TIG and MIG are used alot) gives you a real good basis for doing a lot of gunsmithing jobs. The other plus to these classes is that there are a lot of places that are BEGGING for qualified machinists and welders. It has gotten so that everyone thinks they need to have a college education to make any money. They forget about how things are made and repaired and who does this type of work. A good machinist can make a lot of money.

 

[wheelgun1958]

Just up the road from you.

http://www.ashworthcollege.edu/career-diplomas/gunsmithing

 

[rugerguy]

sad to say but far too many machinists do not make good gunsmiths, there is a difference, and over the past, almost 50 years now, we have seen this all too often and I worked with some of the best machinists in the country, at both GE and Brush Engineered Materials...its almost like the guns were too simple for them,,,,,yes today with the new CNC stuff it is needed in the manufacturing , the building of firearms from scratch, and the materials, alloys and polymers are far superior than the old days,,but the old ,hands on guys, fitters, assemblers , were the artisans and especially the polishers, today the "best" polishers are no more, few and far between, heck they no longer even make the great bluing solutions of yesteryear, and the fine stuff ,like rust bluing is too time consuming and costly, seldom ever seen on a day to day basis.........same goes for the older S&W , or the Colt and their 'royal blue' and again, much of this too was in the "prep"..............too much today is "black", not blued.

If anything ,study metallurgy ( materials & heat treating) you can weld ,but we've seen tons of boogered weld jobs, that the parts were NOT properly reheat treated ,look at all the guns you see with the tops strap having holes 'plugged, welded, and then blued over and they jump out at you!!!
any old timer with a arc welder, can use just enough amps to "strike" and arc , fill the hole, with say #2 mild steel rod and do a better job than the higher temp tig or mig, that most of the times leaves that small 3/8 'burn mark ( dark spot in the reblued finish) :roll:

 

[RoninPA]

I wouldn't disagree with you Dan, but I'd rather have an apprentice or intern that knew their way around lathes, mills and the such than someone with no machine experience at all. I do know what you are saying about the very experienced machinists, to them cutting a dovetail in a slide is like childs play and something like that is beneath them and their fancy machines. I bought a milling machine before I knew how to use it (I had to at the time, I got about $3000 worth of milling machine, collets, cutters, vises, clamping devices, etc. for $450). So I started reading, talking to my 2 cousins that are machinists and a couple of my clients are also machinist. I learned on my own, practicing on different scrap metals, but I am still thinking about taking some classes to help round me out.

 

[Chuck 100 yd]

rugerguy , The bluing has changed partly due to regulations. The old time bluing salts are no longer available due to Federal regulation outlawing certain chemicals. The stuff available today does make for a black finish. And of course the users are cutting corners in prep work also to lower cost,that is for sure.

 

[rugerguy]

Oh I am very familiar with the changes in the bluing formulas, have worked with the folks atDulite as well as Haughton Chemicals, and have three friends who are all chemist, well two now, Fred W passed away......
and Ron you are doing it the 'correct' way, know MORE about the basics of guns and applying the use of machinery to help, beats filing and sanding ( how well I know) no place for a CNC in a typical gun shop, they are production machinery, and that is the main thing,for years we ONLY used a drill press with a cross feed adjustable table, a bench grinder and a two way power belt/disc sander, did all we needed with that stuff, the chambering and barrel work took next door to the machine shop guy who loved to shoot.....for years we were very lucky to work with guys who were aerospace machinists, and just need to find the guys "who like to shoot", gosh government work is the BOMB...........so I surrounded myself with guys "who know how", heck dig up some of the old Brownells Gunsmith Kinks books ( yeah I'm even in one of them), but the guy who did the drawings for Frank and Bob brownell in the beginning, was a "tinkerer" could build about anything ,his name was Merl Ray and was working well up into his late 80's, when he passed away and another who "taught/trained" me was Bob Shea, the master gunsmith for High Standard, he is or was?? still building 10-X target guns for the "new " High Standard, and he's gotta be around 90 by now !!!! and my FIRST REAL teacher was Dan Wesson, yes the grandson of the "the Wesson " family, and last to own Smith & Wesson, the family sold that to Bangor Punta in 1966, I spent time in the spring of 1973 with Mr Wesson in Monson, Mass.....so I kinda know my way around and what to do, and never bothered to learn to run any machine and as I noted earlier , MY Dad was a tool & die maker all through WWII for Eaton Axle...............gosh I really do enjoy 'retirement'..... 8)

so papaSR9 go for it, do what YOU want to do, but only if you enjoy it ............. :wink:

 

[contender]

Dan speaks from experience, gained by a lifetime of actual hands on work.
I have heard a few of the names he mentions and I met Bob Shea a few times at the SHOT Show. That kind of experience & knowledge is rare anymore.

 

[rugerguy]

Big thing for anyone to remember is it is a fact the "hands on " training helps, and if you cannot get this, then videos, and any books that have concise pictures, and in an order that is simple and easy to follow, and then do it, yes work on some of them old clunkers, yes try and restore and bring back to life, some of them "old ones" its PRACTICE, and HANDS ON< , book knowledge is NOT everything, I know many guys who can recite any and all the specs and the timing of any motor ever built by Ford or Chevy and they cannot change a sparkplug.....sad all that knowledge and then NOT "put it to work"....today the internet, YOUTUBE as an example, has it on there somewhere, just about ANYTHING,,,,,, pictures are worth thousands of words.
AAAAANNNNNDDDDD,,,,,,,,learn from your mistakes.

Again, go for it, learn and do GOOD yes "neatness counts" the world is full of backyard, kitchen table gunsmiths, some folks call them "Bubba" I call them "Schwak Industires" like ina just another schwak job..." too many of these folks are just pleased as punch they do a bad job, just to make money at it.......then people wonder "why" the factory has to "see it" for themselves , to make a determination of just what YOU, bubba or Schwak , did to screw things up, heck they have enough trouble with QC and screw things up by themselves, and THEY built it !!!!!! This goes back to "warranty & liability" keep them in mind,after "safety first" ( and foremost) "All part of responsible firearms ownership...."

 

[papaSR9]

Thanks everyone for the responses. They have provided a fair amount of clarity into what decisions I need to make.

Just a couple of points/questions:

Based on what I am reading, this may turn out to be a hobby and see if it something I could expand into making either a part/full time job. It has been my observation that with the number of firearms being bought there should be a higher demand and most gunsmiths have a backlog for doing work, indicating to me that there is a shortage of them.

It seems that the term 'gunsmithing' includes machining and welding. What different levels of gunsmithing are there? Or is the term all inclusive and anything not including machining and welding is called something different(?).

What resources would I start out with? Books, magazines, forums before making a commitment to formal training?

 

[RoninPA]

Find a copy of Roy F. Dunlap's GUNSMITHING. This is probably the "bible". Jerry Kuhnhausens books on different guns are outstanding. Steve Acker wrote a good book The Gunsmiths Machinist. The Gunsmith Kinks books from Brownells are a great source of info. I have been told that the AGI series of DVD's are also helpful. I get the American Gunsmith, from the American Gunsmithing Association every month, lots of good how to articles in them.

 

[woodsy]

The AGI videos suffer from a lack of instruction; they assume one already knows the basics of 'smithing and machining, and focus on individual differences between makes of firearms. I made my mistake with them; perhaps you can avoid the same.

 

[papaSR9]

so papaSR9 go for it, do what YOU want to do, but only if you enjoy it ............. :wink:

That is exactly what I intend to do.

Find a copy of Roy F. Dunlap's GUNSMITHING. This is probably the "bible". Jerry Kuhnhausens books on different guns are outstanding. Steve Acker wrote a good book The Gunsmiths Machinist. The Gunsmith Kinks books from Brownells are a great source of info. I have been told that the AGI series of DVD's are also helpful. I get the American Gunsmith, from the American Gunsmithing Association every month, lots of good how to articles in them.

I see that I have some good reading in store for me. Thanks for heads-up on the books and I will also check out the American Gunsmith Association and their magazine.

The AGI videos suffer from a lack of instruction; they assume one already knows the basics of 'smithing and machining, and focus on individual differences between makes of firearms. I made my mistake with them; perhaps you can avoid the same.

I will check out some reviews of the videos and see if they are applicable to my needs. Thanks.

 

[The Blackhawk Kid]

The reply I got at a job interview "We can make a machinist a gunsmith, but not a gunsmith a machinist." I had 15 years experience as a machine operator, an A.A.S. in Gunsmithing at TSJC. I worked as a machine operator in Pueblo, CO, and part time in a gun shop doing repair. I do repair at home and work part time in a local gs to keep busy. BHK

 

[sheep.dog]

In any such endevor there are no better teachers then the right tools and lots of practice.

 

[sheep.dog]

In any such endevor there are no better teachers then the right tools and lots of practice.

I want to elaborate on this. I too have some ambitions to be a gunsmith. It might not seem like a big deal to some but I have done a little tinkering with guns. I have built an AR, rust blued a black hawk and take apart or modified every gun I have ever owned. I have also rebuilt engines for cars and motorcycles, fully restored a 1974 VW Beetle and 1981 AMC Eagle and built concrete counter tops when DIY renovating my kitchen. None of this is my job, I do work full time, but I have always scraped together enough money to buy the tools and enough time to make it happen. Read some books and find some people to give you advice then start buying tools and taking something apart.

 

[powder smoke]

Sheep dog I'm the same type of character had, to chuckle reading your post.
One thing for sure I'm not afraid to dismantle anything, 9 outta 10 times I get
it together better than it was. On the rare occation when I'm stumped I'm not afraid
to seek assistance alls well that ends well. ps

 

[TINCANBANDIT]

I have a certificate in gunsmithing, but I do not consider myself a gunsmith. IMO a gunsmith is also a machinist, therefore I call myself a gun mechanic

working on guns is fun, but I doubt you would make much money. The problem is not enough people are willing to pay much to repair or alter a gun. On the other hand if money is not a big concern......

I don't remember who said it, but the saying goes....If you love what you do, you will never work a day in your life.