FPS

HW11

Single-Sixer
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Apr 9, 2014
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South Central VA
Up until a few week ago I had always loaded and shot. Now I have a chronograph so I actually get to see what the performance is on what I'm loading. Here is where I want some knowledge.
I took out 100 new pieces of 44 special brass. I wanted to get them once fired so I didn't measure, sort or trim any of them. All I did was opened the mouth so I could get the bullet started, primed all of them and set them all in my tray. I loaded 50 with 7 gr of Unique and 50 with 6 gr of Red Dot. They were all loaded with the same bullet out of the same bag. Once I started loading I did not change anything in the process or how the die was set. When I had the 100 loaded I went out and shot. The ones loaded with the Unique varied 54 FPS in 12 rounds from the slowest to the fastest. I then shot 12 rounds that were loaded with Red Dot. In that 12 rounds there was only 16 FPS from slowest to fastest.
Is that just the difference in the consistency of how the two different powders burn? I'm I screwing up something in my loading process?
 
While I don't remember what the velocity spreads were for various the ones I've tested I'd have to say a 50fps difference isn't bad and I'd consider a 15fps consistency a miracle. I've had to even throw out the highest and lowest numbers of a string because they were so far apart.
Everything may or may not dictate consistent velocity and different shooters will argue or dismiss different points.
Differing case lengths and case thickness "could" create a differing grip or crimp tension on the bullet, not to mention the persons crimping habits.
Differing powder charges by volume density "could" make a difference in consistent velocity if shooting level, up hill or down. Some people will swear by accuracy in having the case fill of over %80 and to some even better yet compressed charges are the only way to go.
I ain't got no problem with your velocity spread, congratulations!
Please do share what bullet that was, your barrel length and average velocity of the loads.
 
Some powders are more "position sensitive" than others and will be more consistent if located against the primer by tilting the muzzle up prior to firing. Look back at your shooting technique and see if there was any diff in how you handled the gun to rule this out of the equation.
I like Tite Group for it's position insensitivity(and it's cheap to use) and use it for nearly all my lighter loadings.
 
I`ll agree with both the above posters.

Unique is a very versatile powder, but not the best in some instances.
It`s large flaked , reddot is smaller flaked plus faster burnin, that`s why Mobuck likes Tite Group + it meters very well.

I like your ESs & first try to!!!!

The reason for such low numbers is the fact the loads fit better in the spc. cases than lets say 44 mag cases, but even in 44 mag cases I turn to 1 of the DOT powders for my low pressure loads.

GP
 
Red dot is one of my favorite powders for loading cast pistol bullets.
I have shot lots of Unique but sure don`t care for the way it meters. Red dot seems to be much more consistent than Unique for the loads I shoot.
 
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Hi,

I developed some "personal guides" while chronographing shotshells at the range for several years. I've found some of them work reasonably well with my metallic ammo, too, so here they are. Maybe they'll help, maybe not? Get your cup of coffee, this will be wordy:

First thing is to get the figures my old Oehler 33 gives, whether your chrono gives 'em to you, they come from a spreadsheet like Open Office or Excel can do, or you're more of a whiz with your scientific/biz calculator than some of us and derive them yourself. These are Hi, Lo, ES (extreme spread, or the highest figure minus the lowest in the string), Avg (the average of all shots in the string), and Sd (standard deviation.)

It's also helpful to have a thermometer with you while chronoing your loads. It's my understanding that most lab chrono/pressure testing is done at 70 deg F. You'll find SOME loads are very temperature sensitive, some are quite temperature tolerant. In plain English, that means some of my loads work well from the low 40s up to over 100 deg, while I have to tone some of 'em back a touch for summer use in the desert. Barring better data, a couple of us figured a change of 2fps/degree, up or down from 70 deg, was a "workable" rule of thumb for shotshells. Warmer temps meant higher velocities, lower ones slowed things down. I haven't come up with a similar number for metallic ammo, but perhaps some of you might be able to find one.

Ok, we've got some numbers. Now we need to look a touch further than just raw numbers and look at percentages. The average number is my starting point. From there, we look at the ES and Sd figures. Again, these figures come from shotshell work, so they might not be as good for your metallics. What we found was the very best we saw over the chrono (on average) was an ES of 2% and Sd of 1%. So, using a target average velocity of 1200 fps, which was the "legal" competition limit for both American trap and skeet at the time, if the ES was 48-50 fps, and the Sd was 12 fps, we considered that to be a "perfect" load.

Reality was the "real" numbers were generally in the neighborhood of twice those figures! So we allowed as how a guy's reloads that matched factory target ammo was probably pretty good. The rulebooks at the time allowed us 1200 fps +/- 25 fps for an "average." That often translated into an ES figure of 75-100 fps, and an Sd of 15-20 fps. Since good shooters could regularly shoot 100 straight scores using factory ammo, and often much higher (750 plus was the highest I've watched in a single string over a couple of days), those numbers must work ok, right?

So if one's handloads matched factory specs they were generally good, if they beat the factory, perhaps excellent, provided the nut behind the butt wasn't loose! In other words, misses really weren't a function of ammo problems...

What I'd suggest before someone drives themselves to the brink of madness with their new chrono is to establish a baseline figure for a particular gun, using decent FACTORY ammo first. As much as handloaders tell us they can beat the factory, the reality is it's like a pretty good shooter going up in competition against a world champion: on any given day the "good" guy might beat the champ, but going head to head for a week, the champ will prevail. The factories build millions to billions of rounds per month--I figure they've learned something along the way doing that! Let's call them the champ in this scenario.

Ok, once that baseline's been established (and it must be repeated for a change of guns), one has something to shoot for. Are your handloads as good as the factory's loads? If so, you're loading practices are probably pretty good, and now you can see if you CAN beat the factory. (If they're not, it's time to clean up the loading bench and pay more attention to your loading regimen until you can match the big boys.) You may well be able to do that, in a given gun with a given load. If so, and the load works as well on paper as it does over the chrono, you've achieved something! Congratulations--make sure you make several copies of your log notes so you don't lose that load data!

I've gone on too long here, so let's close with a reminder the chrono is but one of many tools in the handloader's tool box. How it's used depends to some extent on what the goal is. For example, there are 1000s of hunters out there who've never even seen a chrono, yet have a favorite load that puts venison in their freezers year after year. Those guys may use a chrono more out of curiosity than anything else. Others shoot competition, where maybe they need to meet certain specs with their ammo per the rules. They'll use their chronos frequently. Some shooters are blessed with more innate curiosity than others, and love to experiment, so they'll put their chronos to use accordingly!

In the end, though, the goal is to put a bullet in the same place time after time. The numbers may or may not be big players in achieving that end with your particular gun and load combo, so keep that in mind with your own chrono use! Test, test, test, as they say...

Rick C
 
As I said I am new to the chronograph thing so I have never studied one much. Y'all lost me on the standard deviation thing, well really you lost me on all of the technical part after you left FPS. I admit I have a lot of studying to do.
I have always tried to be very precise in the loading I do, I just never had a way to check my results other than shoot it and see if it was accurate. All of these loads were loaded with a powder dump, which I almost never do. I weigh all my loads 95% of the time. The only reason I didn't weigh these was I wanted to get them loaded fast so I could shoot before dark.
To answer a few of the questions, My pistol is a 5.5" Bisley 44 special. I have fire lapped the barrel and had to hone one cylinder a little. The cylinders all check .4315 with a pin gauge, .432 is a no go. The action has had a little attention also. I the bullets are from this site. I asked Harles if he could size some of his Keith bullets .432 for me and he was nice enough to provide them.
As for the speed I don't have my book up here at the house with me but I think the Unique was low 900s maybe 930 something and the Red Dot was high 800s , 870ish and I may have it backwards. I will have to look and see what I wrote down.
My chronograph only gives me FPS not standard deviation.
I want some LBT WFN sized 432 but I can't find them anywhere. I ordered some bullets from Beartooth Bullets last year. I have not gotten them and they will not even answer my email to them now. But that's not worth talking about.
Thanks to everyone that gave input on this. I am going back and read over it again when I have more time.
 
You might mess with your crimp. I myself like unique and find it very useful. It works excellent to good in so many cartridges I can't see myself being with out at least 8 lbs on hand at all times.
It sure is a shame that the SR powders are leaving. I refuse to rat hole any more than I have now of any of them. Time to move on and find a replacement.

I was scanning through the hodgdon 2015 magazine. Longshot has a fairly wide usage range so I picked up a pound to give it a test drive. Just starting to play with the 327 and 41 mag. 4756 in the 41 mag showed great promise. Tried the longshot and it grouped right at 1" off the bags at 25 yards and was running 1200 and change. Extreme spread was 20. Life is good.
Buddy tightened the crimp up on his 41 mag loads with 296 with no other changes. Gained 90+ fps and groups went to crap. I suspect he distorted the bullet,210 xtp.
Jeff
 
If you're going to get this serious about your reloading I recommend a good digital scale as your next purchase. For one thing it is easy and fast to use and easy to confirm whether a powder is metering consistently. (Set "tare" with an empty case on the scale, throw the charge into the case, then weigh the charged case...very fast and easy, no need to trickle the measured charges back into the case, etc.) Once you have evaluated the metering consistency it is fairly basic to decide whether deviations in muzzle velocity are caused by inconsistencies in powder charge or whether you need to look elsewhere for the cause.
 
57K said:
Well, HW, we certainly don't mean to confuse you. You can get into SD later and I'm sure your chrono stores velocities in its memory, so when and if you get interested, you can take those numbers from the memory once you get back to your computer. I'm not as knowledgeable as Rick on the spreadsheet thing but I do have Open Office on my computer that he informed us on another thread will calculate SD.

Hi,

If anyone needs a template, I can copy part of my spreadsheet and e-mail it to you if you'll just drop me a PM with your e-mail address and your preference for Open Office or Excel format (please let me know what version of Excel you're using so I can tell Open Office how to translate it.)

You'll have to do a bit of work in the sense of recording each velocity in your logbook at the range, then transferring it to the spreadsheet. You can do that at the range if you take your laptop or tablet, or wait until you're at home. From there, the computer takes over and does the rest of the work for you. :)

For HW, I can only offer the roughest descripton of Sd since I never took a statistics class, and fall asleep every time I try to read the stats textbook that's here on the shelf. Essentially it's a way of predicting how many individual members of your total population of figures should fall within a given range, based on the average at its center. What we're working with for chrono use is "one standard deviation" which, if I was told correctly, means 2/3 (67%) of the samples should be within that range.

So, for example, if we have a population of 100 samples (numbers), with an average of 50 and an Sd of 25, we would expect 67 of those numbers to range from 25 (50 minus 25) to 75 (50 plus 25.) Two standard deviations would expand the range to cover a much higher percentage. If we draw a graph, it all produces a nice bell curve going each way from that average number. The smaller the Sd, the narrower the window for each standard deviation, so the narrower the "bell." If I got any of that wrong, someone who stayed awake during their stats class will correct me!

Rick C
 
I always question my powder measuring. I'm so anal that even using a powder measure I often weigh the powder for every round. :D
 
A very interesting thread to say the least. Opinions are like elbows, everyone has a couple.
I have found it interesting on powder measures and have discussed and cussed the subject for several years with guys I shoot with. Some weigh each charge. Others measure by volume each charge. There in lies the issue or argument which is better.
I see a lot of guys with powder measures and still weigh each and every one.
I measure everyone one and check weigh about every fifth one.
My one favorite and the only one I trust with complete confidence with ANY powder is an old Belding&Mull. My other for ball powder is a Redding BR3.
I use a balance beam scale as I have a dislike of electronic scales.
One thing I have noticed that was not brung up was bullet pull. I anneal my cases every 3-5 sizings. This is for my IHMSA gun in 30-30 and cast bullets. It does make a difference but is somthing I would only fool with to tighten up an already good load.
And yes I have and do anneal revolver cartridges for certain guns. One FA and one Ruger. Proof is on the paper or steel which ever the case may be.

One can get so anal on searching for the "holy grail" load that it will drive you nuts. Everything must be the same. Which is a tough job to do even in a custom, but they do take a lot of the variables out of the job. A bone stock production assembly line made will have a tougher time in this area.
I don't ever accept sub standard accuracy because it is a mass produced gun. I do accept the best it will give me and some of these are off of my standards and they go down the road. I do look for that magic load but I am not hung up on it as I was some years back. I came to find my ok loads were shooting better than some guys best loads.
Shoot. Then shoot some more. There is no replacement for trigger time.
Jeff
 

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