Forget it, apparently I was wrong in questioning......

[Skalkaho Slim]

I've always been pleased with MBC's bullets. Unfortunately I'm not real happy with their CS at the moment. I'm a little embarrassed as I've always recommended them for cast bullets.

Called to ask what the min OAL should be on a particular bullet of theirs that does not appear in manuals. I could probably figure it out for myself, but why not go to the source for a definitive answer.

First lady had no clue what I was talking about.

Second lady said it depended on my gun.

I reiterated that I was looking for the MINIMUM oal, not maximum.

She said they weren't reloaders and do not know the answers to those questions.

Really? Nice to see they can't answer a fairly simple question about a product they produce. :~

 

[Hammerdown77]

MBC can't really give you that information, because they do not have access to pressure testing facilities like the major powder and bullet manufs. do.

Minimum OAL has to do with pressure limits.

If you read on their website (assuming they still have this statement), they specifically say they cannot supply load data.

I've talked to Brad before and he's given me suggestions, but that is off the record as I understand. Typically, they might tell you to use data for a similar bullet that does have published load data associated with it.

I'm surprised they even have time to answer the phone at all, given their workload and the fact that every employee is working flat out for 14 hours a day it seems...

 

[Skalkaho Slim]

I don't know. I'm not looking for load data as I see it. Min oal is not dependent on different powders or charge weights. Its a simple measurement dependent on bullet type, length and construction and how far that bullet should be stuffed into a case.

I've gotten that information from other casters without a problem. Guess I'll just ask one them.

I guess the fact that they had no clue what I was talking about and with it being a pretty common measurement involving a product they produce just didn't sit well with me.

 

[Hammerdown77]

Why are you concerned about minimum OAL, then?

The only time I care about min OAL is when I'm worried about pressure. And then the powder you're using, the charge, whether you're at min or max charge or somewhere in between, and the primer all come into play.

The bullet manufacturer won't know any of that unless they've had lab testing done on that bullet with that powder and that primer, or unless it's an exact copy of some other manufacturer's bullet that HAS had lab testing done.

I've heard that before when requesting load data from a bullet manufacturer. "Just use the data for the X bullet," where "X" is some brand and style that does have published, tested load data.

 

[Cheesewhiz]

You should call them back, they may have a very good recipe for apple pie.

I've requested data before from bullet makers and will normally get at least a recommended load for a particular bullet.

I use formulas sometimes for an unknown in order to extrapolate a load.

 

[Skalkaho Slim]

Well, what I ended up doing was calling a different casting company that has the same mold and the nice gentleman was able to tell me without hesitation what the min OAL should be.

So yes, it is possible for a manufacturer to know just what the hell the particulars are about their product.

Needless to say, I'm going to be getting my cast from this gentleman's company in the future.

It wasn't so much that they didn't know, it was that they sounded like they had no clue as to what I was even asking. They had no suggestions as to using data for a similar bullet - it was just dead air. I told them I'd try to find some info on the internet and she just said "OK".

Oh, well, no big deal. If they're that busy, they're making money, so that's a good thing. They won't miss me.

 

[steve b]

Its disturbingly normal now for office help and management to have no experience with the product. You have to get a Bubba off the work floor if ya want to know anything. Its also disturbingly normal for Bubba to speak chinese or ??? steve b

 

[steve b]

I wouldn't have been disturbed by the person on the phone not being able to answer a question. Whats disturbing is they let you off the phone without an answer. Shame on them. They should have run down someone there for an answer right away, or phoned you with one within a reasonable amount of time. steve b

 

[DGW1949]

Musta been an autoloader bullet?
I ask that because revolver bullets has a crimp groove, and where it is determines the AOL. After the bullet is crimped, the amount of bullet that is left sticking-down inside the case determines the actual powder capacity of that particular cartridge which in turn, determines how much pressure that particular round of ammo has when using X-amount of powder charge, a bullet with X-amount of size/weight, X-amount of bearing surface, X-amount of bullet hardness, and using a particular primer. None of that has much to do with OAL. OAL is simply a by product of where the crimp groove is.

I do agree though, that a bullet caster "should have" known the answer to the question.

DGW

 

[bigboredad]

well I don't really know who is right or who is wrong. Bottom line is you are the customer you are the spending your money. It doesn't matter how great their product may be if they cannot help you or provide a info that you wanted I would think that they would want to find the info and call email or snail mail the info. As it is they lost a customer and I'm pretty sure they have plenty others but I'm pretty sure every customer is important especially in the cast bullet business where there is so many to choose from.
By the way where did you find the info needed

 

[Hammerdown77]

Here is a statement from their FAQ on their website. This statement also appears elsewhere.

Do you provide load data?
Sorry, but due to liability reasons we do not provide this information. Please check the website of your powder manufacturer. They offer load data on their products. Also, there are many reloading forums on the internet and books that contain this information. Sometimes our customers provide what works best for them on our Range Reports.

Here is a link to the "Range Reports" section of their website:
http://www.missouribullet.com/range_reports.php

They used to have a reloading section on their Facebook page, where load information was exchanged, but it looks like they took that down. Again, probably for liability reasons.

Brad would usually respond to any and all queries over in the reloading forum of TheHighRoad.org, but I don't think they have the time anymore. The people you talked to in the office are also handling orders, packing up boxes and making sure they go to the right place, amongst other things. They don't know anything about reloading data and would have had to go track down Brad. This is still a small operation, and they are shorthanded to handle the incredible boom in business that has happened to them over the past couple years. This was one of the reasons they had temporarily suspended their direct retail business and stopped taking new orders from individual buyers.

Could they have handled your call better? Probably. But I still contend that if you get something like min OAL from a small casting operation who hasn't done any testing, they are either a) quoting something out of a published load manual, or b) they are guessing. Might be an educated guess based on their own experience, but without pressure data to back it up, it's still a guess.

For a bullet like say, 9mm or 40 S&W, what powder you are using, the charge, and the primer are needed to be known to determine what is a safe seating depth of that particular bullet. Technically, that's "load data". Without that information, it's just a guess.

I've tried to get that kind of info from other bullet manufacturers before and have gotten nothing but silence as well. Or the standard response, "Use published data". Berry's won't give you squat, and I gave up trying to get load data from Beartooth (although they have a website where lots of people exchange load info).

Even load manuals are often of little help when determining something like minimum OAL. Have you noticed how wildly they vary from one manual to the next? Especially for something like the 9mm. I gave up on paying attention to min OAL numbers in load data a long time ago because of this.

 

[Skalkaho Slim]

By the way where did you find the info needed

Talked to a very nice gentleman at SNS Casting. They seem to have comparable prices and he seemed pretty knowledgeable about his product.

 

[Skalkaho Slim]

But I still contend that if you get something like min OAL from a small casting operation who hasn't done any testing, they are either a) quoting something out of a published load manual, or b) they are guessing. Might be an educated guess based on their own experience, but without pressure data to back it up, it's still a guess.

Precisely why I found someone who actually loads their own cast bullets and has some knowledge in regards to questions like this. They most likely won't give out recipes understandably, but at least he sounded like he knew what the hell I was talking about and was extremely courteous.

 

[Cheesewhiz]

I get my lead from SNS, talked and e-mailed them a few times, nice people.

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't expect that sort of information out of them. In a perfect world, they would have it. But I think they are a relatively small operation. In all due respect, I think this is expecting too much. This is why there are reloading manuals. Reloading is mostly science, but as a reloader there is a certain amount of art and interpretation involved. For example, many manuels that have conflicting max loads. You just have to do the research and make your educated guess. I've loaded a fair amount of lead bullets (many from Mo Bullet Co.) and I've rarely had data for the exact bullet mould that produced what I'm using. I hope it all works out for you though. Good luck!

 

[WESHOOT2]

I get my lead bullets from Penn Bullets, Beartooth, Cast Performance, and Meister.

For reasons I've learned.......

 

[BearStopper]

I agree with the OP. There is no liability in providing seating depth info of a particular bullet type. One expectation that every customer has of any type of business, is that they know about their own product. I would think that if a particular bullet had no crimping groove, that the company would provide details on intended depth to avoid someone seating it too deep and creating a liability! This would actually aid their cause rather than the opposite.

 

[Skalkaho Slim]

Here's the thing, take any load manual. For any particular bullet, they list one OAL. They may list 20 different powders, but only one length. If you want to load it longer, fine, as long as it chambers. I won't go any shorter than what they say though. I consider that the minimum OAL.

I've never seen different lengths for different powders using the same bullet in any manual.

Here's another thing. In the newest issue of Handloader, there's a blurb about substituting bullets that are "close" to those shown in a manual. Says it's a big no-no, but we all do it because we have to. Otherwise, we'd not be able to load half the bullets offered by various casting companies since those particular bullets are not exactly the same as offered by Speer, Hornady, Sierra, etc..

Also in the issue is a good article concerning pressure and seating depth. It doesn't take much to almost double the pressure in a round just by seating it a skosh shorter.

So on one hand, you have the casting companies telling you to load it like you would a similar one in a manual. On the other, you're told not to by some guy in a magazine.

I've never had a problem substituting a similar bullet as long as its the same weight and profile (well, pretty much the same profile anyway).

And yes, the bullet I'm talking about is a 9mm bullet - no crimp groove of course.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

When you use data for one bullet and apply it to another bullet you are in un-charted territory. We all do it, usually without problems, but there is always an exception, hence the rule to work-up loads slowly in your gun. 8) 8)

 

[mikld]

I would think a bullet manufacturer would/should know the proper load data for their product. Why would anyone make a bullet without the knowledge of how it would preform under any circumstances, with any loads. If I were to call a manufacturer's tech line and was read a liability statement, I would surely not purchase that product again, be it bullets or BBQs...

 

[Hammerdown77]

Do the big bullet manufacturers do pressure testing, or is it the powder companies? Or do they work together?

 

[DGW1949]

Here's the thing, take any load manual. For any particular bullet, they list one OAL. They may list 20 different powders, but only one length. If you want to load it longer, fine, as long as it chambers. I won't go any shorter than what they say though. I consider that the minimum OAL.

I've never seen different lengths for different powders using the same bullet in any manual.

Here's another thing. In the newest issue of Handloader, there's a blurb about substituting bullets that are "close" to those shown in a manual. Says it's a big no-no, but we all do it because we have to. Otherwise, we'd not be able to load half the bullets offered by various casting companies since those particular bullets are not exactly the same as offered by Speer, Hornady, Sierra, etc..

Also in the issue is a good article concerning pressure and seating depth. It doesn't take much to almost double the pressure in a round just by seating it a skosh shorter.

So on one hand, you have the casting companies telling you to load it like you would a similar one in a manual. On the other, you're told not to by some guy in a magazine.

I've never had a problem substituting a similar bullet as long as its the same weight and profile (well, pretty much the same profile anyway).

And yes, the bullet I'm talking about is a 9mm bullet - no crimp groove of course.

I understand your delima, but there aint a "one size fits all" answer to be had here. So, what I'd do is try to keep things simple. By that I mean that there are certain operative requirements that the ammo we're making must fullfill, namely;
When loading for an autoloader, we already know what OAL perimeters we must work within (for a given style of bullet) in order for the cartridge to fit within the magazine and feed into the chamber properly.
We already know that both the orgive location and length of different brands of equal-weight bullets can vary due to how "rounded", "pointed", or "blunt" their respective noses are. We also know (or will soon learn) that both of those features effects the optimal OAL of the cartridge because both effect how this or that bullet shape feeds in this or that gun which in turn, pre-determines how deeply we have to seat the bullet.
Just as an example, we already know that HP bullets are a bit longer than RN bullets of the same weight. So by that we also know that the extra length ends-up inside the case if/when both bullets are loaded to the same OAL, which in turn tells us that all else being equal, that one cartridge is going to produce more pressure than the other due to it's having an effectively-smaller case capacity.

Does these somewhat small descrepencies in case capacity realy matter?...yes, no, maybe. To start with, realize that some cases are of realitively small capacity when compared to others, so loading a bullet a "bit deeper" in a .380 or 9MM will raise pressure more than say, will the same "bit deeper" in a .38-Super or 45ACP......Soooo, the final answer when using this or that weight of bullet with this or that cartridge will depend on which caliber of gun you're loading for, how close to "max" your chozen powder charge is, what primer you use at which time and to some extent, the actual diameter of the bullet in question and/or amount of bullet-pull or crimp you like to use.
The guy that sold you the bullet only knows the answer to one of those. He's got no idea on the the rest, because the rest is up to us.

Picking a specific bullet first and seeking information afterwards seems like a backwards way to do it to me, but that said.....T'were it me, and was I looking at a box of bullets that I knew little about, and t'were I worried about any of this, and was I not able to find the answer in a manual, or from the manufacturer....I'd ask around to see if there aint some experienced guys that's loading their own guns with those same bullets.
Or...If all else fails, start with the lowest "min" charge that you can find in a manual for the type/weight of bullet you have, using the powder that you want to use, and go from there.

Hope this helps.

DGW

 

[Skalkaho Slim]

That is an incredibly excellant post DGW.

Needless to say, I've got it figgered out, but thanks for the knowledge. I learn something new every day and matter how long one's been reloading (I've been doing it for almost 30 years) or how much one thinks he knows, there's always the opportunity to learn.

 

[Hammerdown77]

Just as an FYI, when I was coming up with a load for MBC's 125 grain "small ball" 9mm bullet, I had to seat those pretty deep to get them to chamber. That bullet nose is very blunt, and it was hard to keep it out of the rifling leade. With them seated deeper, I backed off to under the starting load for Unique, and they still felt snappier than they should. Tinkered with them for a while, but had terrible leading in a couple of guns, so gave up.

If you peruse the reloading section of TheHighRoad, you'll see quite a few threads about MBC 9mm lead bullets and having to seat them pretty deep. I believe Brad posted in several of those saying you might end up having to go to 1.050" OAL in some guns. (don't quote me on that, may not be that deep, but it was deeper than 1.100")

Regarding different minimum OAL for the same bullet with different powder, and your saying that you haven't seen that......I have some right here in front of me. If you have a Lee reloading manual, there are several instances of a minimum OAL variations for the same bullet, with different powders. The table for the Hornady 147 gr. XTP is a good example. I wanted to post the tables here for others to see, but my scanner is not cooperating for some reason. I'll try to get a picture with the digital camera and just post those.

 

[Skalkaho Slim]

Regarding different minimum OAL for the same bullet with different powder, and your saying that you haven't seen that......I have some right here in front of me. If you have a Lee reloading manual, there are several instances of a minimum OAL variations for the same bullet, with different powders. The table for the Hornady 147 gr. XTP is a good example. I wanted to post the tables here for others to see, but my scanner is not cooperating for some reason. I'll try to get a picture with the digital camera and just post those.

Well, that explains it, I don't own a Lee book. ;)

The Lyman manual for example may have bullets of the same weight, but the shape, alloy type and/or construction is considerably different. As is the OAL and powder charges of course (I'm only speaking of cast of course, not plated).

I only use Hornady, Speer, Hodgdon and the Lyman books. Never had a Lee book as those seem to cover most of what I use.

In the end, I know it's ultimately up to me to determine the OAL for my particular gun. I just think it's nice to have a number that tells me "Don't go any deeper than ______". Just a smart thing to know, ya know. ;)

I'd love to see those tables you're speaking of!