Do large frame Old Model .357s exist?

[k22fan]

I realize Ruger didn’t make mid-size BH frames for a few decades after switching to New Model lock work, but were transitional Old Model full size .357 BHs assembled? I expect this is an easy question for BH collectors so I thought asking here would be faster than trying to find a reference saying a non-existent item wasn’t made.

 

[Hondo44]

Hi k22fan,

Yes an easy question. Both OM 357s were built on the mid frame; the flat tops and the ribbed sight model made from 1962 to 1972.

And no other calibers were chambered in the OM mid frame.

 

[k22fan]

There must have been mid-size frames in process when the order came down to stop shipping old model frames. That does raise the question of what Ruger did with left over old model frames: melt them or ship them converted without including the old model parts they never had. Generally, Ruger hates wasting parts. Anyone know what happened?

 

[Hondo44]

I have heard of OMs sold after the introduction and distribution of NMs. But that mat have been OMs already shipped and still in the pipeline.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

We'd surely appreciate documentation of any such OM .357's for Bob's List!!!

:shock: :shock:

 

[jimbo1096]

I'd have to believe there was no cut and dried date that the workers were barred from producing and old model with original lockwork. Knowledge of a pending change would start the winding down of production of OM parts and frames to attempt to coincide with a changeover date. They would continue the assembly process using parts on hand until they ran out of old model specific parts that would prevent further assembly of that model and anything left would go into a parts bin for future repair or back into the scrap bin for melting down to become a New Model gun.
JM2C.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

From what we see on Bob's List (and elsewhere), the last OM .357 was 31-45190, shipped 5/73. In addition, it is indicated that 31-45191 was scrapped at the factory.

Does anyone have any documention that would challenge or augment this information?

 

[rugerguy]

I agree ,from we've always been led to understand, those numbers you (Ale-8) posted were the last ones...I doubt Ruger sold any "new", (converted with any safety update) old models after they started shipping the new models....Yes, there could have to be some sort of "transition" both in stock, as well as shipments to the distributors,but MY bet is they were either "old model" , or "New Model", with the "NEW Models being started in assembly BEFORE the last of the "old models" went out.....never paid heed to what Chad may have referenced in the RENE...............gosh, anybody still alive from those days, that would KNOW or even comment, the guys I always dealt with are with Bill Sr playing rummy, or gin or checkers, whatever 'old people' did back then 8) :roll: :wink:

I do recall a conversation years ago with some gunsmith who worked under contract at Southport plant, destroying , guns ,parts and frames that were on pallets, wish I had recorded THAT conversation :roll:

 

[k22fan]

I can only write what seems logical to my pea brain, but my guess is that after the first multi-million dollar court loss Ruger stopped shipping single actions and began deciding how to go about recalling revolvers. Their conversion is a variation of a product recall. It doesn’t make sense that they’d ship even one that they’d have to struggle to recall. I also guess that distributors were reluctant to return their stock of revolvers that their curmudgeon customers were clamoring for.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Well, they were still shipping Old Models early in 1973.

Anybody have info on when the New Models started shipping? I know it was in 1973, so there was no long "gap" between the OM's and the NM's.

 

[Hondo44]

Ale,

That might be a good new thread to hear from those with very late shipped OMs that have been 'lettered'.

I recall a very late (based on the serial #) OM Super single six with a transfer bar, like new in box being offered for sale at a gun show by the original owner years ago. When I asked if it had the original parts he said there were none. He bought it new that way. I didn't buy it because it didn't have the original parts. May have been a mistake in retrospect.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Jim. quite frankly I don't believe it ever happened. I'm not doubting you, but we've seen a lot of "yeah, it came that way" comments in the past without any backup. That said, I am quite prepared to be proven wrong. This is another of those cases where actually seeing a "letter" is going to be required for documentation . . . at least to my satisfaction. Somehow, I cannot see a "letter" stating that an Old Model was shipped with a converstion set in place. But as we all know, with Ruger "never say never".

 

[Hondo44]

Ale, you're right; couldn't have happened. The more I remember, the retrofit kit wasn't invented or retrofits offered to the public until several years later because the lawsuits still persisted!

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Dougan devotes an entire chapter with quite a bit of copy and a whole bunch of pictures to the New Models and the development of the "conversion kit" in his book. The concept was apparently being considered for quite a while, with the patents for the "kit" not issued until 1984. Dougan does not mention when the conversions were first offered, but it had to be some time after that . . . at least ten years after the introduction of the New Models.





Edited for spelling.

 

[Hondo44]

Thanks for the refresher!

 

[Bob Wright]

k22fan:

I realize Ruger didn’t make mid-size BH frames for a few decades after switching to New Model lock work, but were transitional Old Model full size .357 BHs assembled?

Ya'll have me a little confused. Are ya'll saying that Three Screw .357 Magnums were made on the MR-44 frame? That is, large frame .357 Magnums exist as Three Screw models?

Bob Wright

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Three-screw .357 Blackhawks were all built on the original frame size from the days of the Flattops.

When the New Models came out in 1973, the .357's moved up to the larger frame used by the .30 Carbine, the .41 Magnum, the .45 Colt, and the .44 Magnum.

There were no "large frame" .357 three-screws.

I don't have a clue about all the recent "mid-frame" guns which I understand use a frame size like the original Flattops.

 

[Hondo44]

k22fan:

I realize Ruger didn’t make mid-size BH frames for a few decades after switching to New Model lock work, but were transitional Old Model full size .357 BHs assembled?

Ya'll have me a little confused. Are ya'll saying that Three Screw .357 Magnums were made on the MR-44 frame? That is, large frame .357 Magnums exist as Three Screw models?

Bob Wright

No & No.

I don't have a clue about all the recent "mid-frame" guns which I understand use a frame size like the original Flattops.

Ale,

That's correct! The new model mid-frames are virtually identical in size to the OM 357 flat top and transitional 3 screw mid-frames, and cylinders will interchange with the usual OAL contingency.

Those are the New Vaquero and new Flat Tops in 357, 44 Spl and 45 Colt . The new Flat Tops in 41 and 44 Mag of course are on the large frame.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Yow . . . both "mid" and "large" frame New Model Flattops.

That's almost as bad as original "large frame" New Model Vaqueros and the later "mid-frame" New Vaqueros which are, of course, New Models. That's why I stay with the Old Models.

Then of course we have the original Hawkeye single-shot handgun and the recent Hawkeye rifles.

 

[chet15]

Really...the old model .357 and new model .357 were two different models. They could very well have been shipping New Model .357's out before the last of the Old Models had been shipped...again, two different models...sell them as the orders come in until your Old Model inventory is depleted...after all, were there really too many people clamoring after the New Model at that time? Most SA lovers hated it as I recall. Its why most collectors don't collect NM's today.
Also, the question really doesn't have anything to do with liabilities in a selling/shipping sense since the NM Single-Six came out first and there were still plenty of OM Blackhawks left to get shipped from the factory.
This was probably all a normal process of factory changeover....i.e., it didn't just happen overnight for any one model.
Lastly, there are plenty of instances where certain OM SA's left the factory (I know of one O.M. Single-Six that left as recent as a couple years ago!). Remember also that shipments of Ruger's Super Bearcat (a true Old Model) didn't stop until mid-late 1974).
Chet15