GunnyGene
Hawkeye
Anybody besides me practice this? Pretty good video, but feel free to critique it or post other videos. 
Defensive shooting from retention
- Thread starter GunnyGene
- Start date
It's good to practice along with weak hand drills
Stantheman1986
Single-Sixer
I've been practicing this since I was an armed Guard at a Nuclear Plant.
This was part of the FBI qualification course and I started working it into my own training
Holster Retention is the most undertrained handgun skill and honestly probably the most likely to be used in a real world defensive scenario as a regular civilian just going about your business.
Because if your shooting to protect yourself it's most likely to be because you're being robbed, assaulted, someone is on you, multiple people are trying to hurt you etc etc . If you instinctively "punch out" at contact range someone will grab at your gun and possibly take it from you.
Just train at 25% speed until you're thoroughly comfortable and like was said, run through dry first . So you don't shoot yourself plus keeping the other hand tucked up as a defense is key so you don't shoot your off hand but people still get sloppy
I saw a fat guy with a Glock hanging off his fat roll because the slide bit him during the Holster Retention phase of Qual. Also people getting hit by the slide because the back of the gun was against their body.
You'll need that muscle memory to get that gun out and fire a round because it may save your life.
Like the tactical guru guy in the video says, once you've created distance then you can aim but obviously Retention shooting is for pretty much -1 Yard contact range.
This was part of the FBI qualification course and I started working it into my own training
Holster Retention is the most undertrained handgun skill and honestly probably the most likely to be used in a real world defensive scenario as a regular civilian just going about your business.
Because if your shooting to protect yourself it's most likely to be because you're being robbed, assaulted, someone is on you, multiple people are trying to hurt you etc etc . If you instinctively "punch out" at contact range someone will grab at your gun and possibly take it from you.
Just train at 25% speed until you're thoroughly comfortable and like was said, run through dry first . So you don't shoot yourself plus keeping the other hand tucked up as a defense is key so you don't shoot your off hand but people still get sloppy
I saw a fat guy with a Glock hanging off his fat roll because the slide bit him during the Holster Retention phase of Qual. Also people getting hit by the slide because the back of the gun was against their body.
You'll need that muscle memory to get that gun out and fire a round because it may save your life.
Like the tactical guru guy in the video says, once you've created distance then you can aim but obviously Retention shooting is for pretty much -1 Yard contact range.
OP
GunnyGene
Hawkeye
My only complaint about this video (and others like it) has to do with senior citizens. Seems that all of them assume you're young and fit. How about those of us who are 75+ and definitely not in our prime? I've managed to adapt somewhat, but there's no way I can toe to toe with some 30 something attacker.
I did not watch the full video, I trained others and did that style of shooting myself for 39 years, 3 times a year. Now only once a year.
My point is about the weak hand or non shooting hand. You must keep it at your body or you may shoot your own arm/hand. He is 100% right about that.
To do so, hold it down along your side, maybe grab your pants or belt loop so it's stays out of the way. Holding it across your chest is bad for this reason. It may become trapped if the threat grabs you or falls into your body. I wouldn't use it to push back a threat if I plan to draw. I wouldn't move it until I am done shooting.
My point is about the weak hand or non shooting hand. You must keep it at your body or you may shoot your own arm/hand. He is 100% right about that.
To do so, hold it down along your side, maybe grab your pants or belt loop so it's stays out of the way. Holding it across your chest is bad for this reason. It may become trapped if the threat grabs you or falls into your body. I wouldn't use it to push back a threat if I plan to draw. I wouldn't move it until I am done shooting.
Stantheman1986
Single-Sixer
All the more reason to shoot from Retention, no one can decide that you are going to fight them and if someone is on top of you like that with hostile intent, it's time to draw your weapon. You have no obligation to let someone beat on you with their fists just because they aren't armed.
I wouldn't even worry about the whole "pushing off" thing or all the tactical crap he's doing
Anyone can shoot from the Retention position
I have seen too many people shooting at 1-3 yards and purposefully "punching out" with the gun, basically just saying, here grab for it. To be honest, if I were in an altercation and someone was 1 yard away from me, drew a gun and aimed it at me, I'd instinctively grab it as I moved toward them. It's a better option than standing there waiting to get shot. Now you're in a scenario where you are fighting for control of the gun.
You will revert to your highest level of training . I'll never forget the story of the police officers who were found dead with empty .38 brass in their pockets. They only trained at the range , putting empties in their pockets to make them easier to pick up vs forcefully clearing the cylinder and reloading. That was the level of their training
If all someone knows is to draw and "punch out" that's what you will do under duress. Training with the Retention shooting regularly will put that technique in your muscle memory.
I suppose this is good training if you carry that way. For example, I don't carry in a quick draw rig. It's either pocket carry or OWB holster. I would have to fight in close to give me distance & time to draw my gun from either of those carry modes. I've been taught & have taught that leraning & practicing close hand to hand is necessary, if only to get away or have a chance to get the weapon. That's where my TDK knife comes into play. Practice, practice.
Stantheman1986
Single-Sixer
I carry in pretty standard stuff, leather IWB holsters, or OWB holsters. I don't walk around with Serpa holsters on or any of that
I carry revolvers as small as a .22 LR NAA Mini, or guns like a Beretta .25 Bobcat. These are "get off me" guns that pretty much need to be fired from the hip, so to speak because you're really not going to hit anything under stress past bad breath distance with these. I "can" hit at 25 with the Beretta using the almost invisible notch sights , which isn't happening in a real life scenario. It's a point shooter.
Honestly, I'm not trying to interpret the law but I'd obviously rather not shoot, and I assume everyone else here would rather not have to shoot someone.
It's a case by case scenario
The guy in the video is showing techniques for using a gun against someone who is basically on top of you, and he's "pushing" them off and drawing his gun, so I'm assuming this imaginary bad guy does not have a gun and is not shooting at you. You really have to use that split second of time to decide if this person who's attacking you is something that needs to be shot or if you can use some other method to get them away. We all hear the news, I'm not trying to spend the remainder of my life in prison because I made a bad decision. If punching this person in the jaw can stop them it's probably a better option than shooting. If you're older, less physically fit, have ailments etc then you do what you gotta do
I was grabbed in a grocery store parking lot by some old weirdo 2 summers ago because he wanted a ride and I told him to beat it. He was on something and not right in the head and got aggressive, and started snatching at my shirt , so I just pushed him to the ground ,told him if he got up I'd crack his skull, got in my car and rolled. I was like a foot taller and probably 100 lb heavier, and 20 years younger than this guy. If he had a knife or whatever it's different but he was just some drunk and high weirdo. If I'd done some Concealed Carry Commando crap and "pushed off" and double tapped him I'd be an Inmate right now. Your brain is your first weapon.
I carry revolvers as small as a .22 LR NAA Mini, or guns like a Beretta .25 Bobcat. These are "get off me" guns that pretty much need to be fired from the hip, so to speak because you're really not going to hit anything under stress past bad breath distance with these. I "can" hit at 25 with the Beretta using the almost invisible notch sights , which isn't happening in a real life scenario. It's a point shooter.
Honestly, I'm not trying to interpret the law but I'd obviously rather not shoot, and I assume everyone else here would rather not have to shoot someone.
It's a case by case scenario
The guy in the video is showing techniques for using a gun against someone who is basically on top of you, and he's "pushing" them off and drawing his gun, so I'm assuming this imaginary bad guy does not have a gun and is not shooting at you. You really have to use that split second of time to decide if this person who's attacking you is something that needs to be shot or if you can use some other method to get them away. We all hear the news, I'm not trying to spend the remainder of my life in prison because I made a bad decision. If punching this person in the jaw can stop them it's probably a better option than shooting. If you're older, less physically fit, have ailments etc then you do what you gotta do
I was grabbed in a grocery store parking lot by some old weirdo 2 summers ago because he wanted a ride and I told him to beat it. He was on something and not right in the head and got aggressive, and started snatching at my shirt , so I just pushed him to the ground ,told him if he got up I'd crack his skull, got in my car and rolled. I was like a foot taller and probably 100 lb heavier, and 20 years younger than this guy. If he had a knife or whatever it's different but he was just some drunk and high weirdo. If I'd done some Concealed Carry Commando crap and "pushed off" and double tapped him I'd be an Inmate right now. Your brain is your first weapon.
OP
GunnyGene
Hawkeye
First off, thanks for all the input on this. But it's my bed time, so I'll sleep on what ya'll have said and give you my thoughts on it tomorrow. 
"My point is about the weak hand or non shooting hand. You must keep it at your body or you may shoot your own arm/hand. He is 100% right about that."
Good point. If (and this is a big IF) I have to push an aggressor away I'll push high and shoot low.
Good point. If (and this is a big IF) I have to push an aggressor away I'll push high and shoot low.
KurtC
Single-Sixer
35 years ago, my attorney advised me to only carry handguns that I have shot a qualification course with. I have been using this one for some time now. It includes shove-shooting and movement to cover, along with weak hand, retention and body armor drills.
https://mpoetc.psp.pa.gov/training/...2 (50-Round) Handgun Qualification Course.pdf
I fired it again 2 weeks ago, this time using a S&W 4586TSW and a Beretta 8045D Mini Cougar. Last time I used a Colt 1911A1 and a Beretta PX45C.
https://mpoetc.psp.pa.gov/training/...2 (50-Round) Handgun Qualification Course.pdf
I fired it again 2 weeks ago, this time using a S&W 4586TSW and a Beretta 8045D Mini Cougar. Last time I used a Colt 1911A1 and a Beretta PX45C.
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OP
GunnyGene
Hawkeye
Well I'm awake now. So as promised here's my thoughts.
I can't disagree with anything that anyone has posted. It confirms that what I've been doing for the last 20 years or so, is appropriate subject to my age and condition limitations.
Without getting too far into the weeds, this level of training/practice is likely out of reach for most folks due to cost and availability of proper facilities and knowledgeable instructors. Here in MS I'm aware of only 2 ranges (there may be a couple more) that offer advanced handgun training and range time. Neither of which is affordable or within reasonable distance, but I do have enough land to safely practice on and experiment with a variety of different scenarios.
The other part of this is the nearly infinite variety of possible scenarios. The video I posted is only one such. So I think the most important part of this is simply being aware of the risks associated with where you are and when; and being willing to improvise and adapt should such a risk materialize.
Finally, I think trip planning is part of this, even if you're only going to the grocery. For example, I'll plan my route whenever I go into town to include multiple stops, and not make any unplanned stops or detours. Since I live alone out in the woods I also include the return to my house, and have a contingency plan if there's a vehicle or people on the property that shouldn't be there. Essentially, I plan a trip to town much like I'd plan a solo patrol in DaNang, Mogadishu, or Memphis, TN.
I won't address weapon or carry since that's just plain boring, and everyone does it different.
I just bumped into this on TTAG that is appropo:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/living-in-condition-white/
I can't disagree with anything that anyone has posted. It confirms that what I've been doing for the last 20 years or so, is appropriate subject to my age and condition limitations.
Without getting too far into the weeds, this level of training/practice is likely out of reach for most folks due to cost and availability of proper facilities and knowledgeable instructors. Here in MS I'm aware of only 2 ranges (there may be a couple more) that offer advanced handgun training and range time. Neither of which is affordable or within reasonable distance, but I do have enough land to safely practice on and experiment with a variety of different scenarios.
The other part of this is the nearly infinite variety of possible scenarios. The video I posted is only one such. So I think the most important part of this is simply being aware of the risks associated with where you are and when; and being willing to improvise and adapt should such a risk materialize.
Finally, I think trip planning is part of this, even if you're only going to the grocery. For example, I'll plan my route whenever I go into town to include multiple stops, and not make any unplanned stops or detours. Since I live alone out in the woods I also include the return to my house, and have a contingency plan if there's a vehicle or people on the property that shouldn't be there. Essentially, I plan a trip to town much like I'd plan a solo patrol in DaNang, Mogadishu, or Memphis, TN.
I won't address weapon or carry since that's just plain boring, and everyone does it different.
I just bumped into this on TTAG that is appropo:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/living-in-condition-white/
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Stantheman1986
Single-Sixer
My best advice is that if someone is paying for or attending training, make sure the trainers are actually worth receiving instruction from
Bad training can be worse than no training
Bad training can be worse than no training
This was actually part of the training I took a few weeks ago... not so much the physical part but the close quarter shooting with just one hand and keeping the other out of the way... but then the two LEO's that were teaching the class had us do the same thing with our 'weak' hand.
I've posted this before, will make the story short. had a drunk/druggie grab me outside a auto parts store. I caught him with
a very solid elbow after not being able to just jerk away from him. Point to this is I was carrying and never even had a thought
about going for my gun...was like I was not even carrying it, don't get too bogged down in the hand to hand fight and forget
you have a gun.
In this case there was no reason to pull it anyway but I wonder how long it would have taken if I was being beat on to
get past the "duh" moment and recognize I could have a problem here.
a very solid elbow after not being able to just jerk away from him. Point to this is I was carrying and never even had a thought
about going for my gun...was like I was not even carrying it, don't get too bogged down in the hand to hand fight and forget
you have a gun.
In this case there was no reason to pull it anyway but I wonder how long it would have taken if I was being beat on to
get past the "duh" moment and recognize I could have a problem here.
Correct me if I'm wrong on this but I suspect the chances of knowing a threat is coming are slim. It will probably show up out of the blue and I think the key is to know when to run and when to defend... and also this is where training comes in... I firmly believe with the proper training what should happen is you realize you need to use deadly force and muscle memory should then kick in and the next thing is the bad guy should have several holes in them....I don't think there will or should be any thought to "well I need to draw take aim pull the trigger and see what happens...."
Yes part of my regular routine. Also include it every so often in a monthly defensive match.
It's not exactly safe but practicing pushing away with one hand while engaging preferably with a simunition or softair is an extremely realistic drill.
Stantheman1986
Single-Sixer
You used the "Force Continuum" , hopefully if it escalated you'd have drawn the gun
I'd rather just punch someone in the face than shoot them, and spend years or the rest of my life in Civil Court and having the family sue me because I shot their mentally ill Uncle . If I'm shooting it's because my brain is telling me I'm in serious trouble
It would be nice if any conflict like this would be just like in the movies and on TV. I suspect, and hope to never know for sure, that the reality is it will not be like that and a very gray area. It's kind of like the idea of it's easier to let someone rob you for a couple dollars than to resist... the problem I have with that is you have to one degree enabled that person and contributed to the next time they rob someone. Before I became an old fat out of shape white guy I never felt in danger no matter where I was... I probably was delusional, but that's just the way I lived my life with the idea I could take care of myself. Part of me is still that way and the reason I carry is for the protection of others not me. Heck, I've already cheated death more times than I can count... twice in 2019, and so I know it is right around the corner what ever that means.
dweis
Blackhawk
A couple decades ago I trained tu adopt the a Center Axis Relock (CAR) system. You never get you arme extended vdry much, It is designed for close quarter battle. It is a bladed stance from which you can fire from the waste quickly. There is a brief article that explains its fundamentals here: https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/can-center-axis-relock-make-faster-safer-accurate/
There is much more to it than explained in the article. It is a CQB system not a stance. I began training in it because my inoperable rotator cuff injury makes it difficult for me to maintain steadiness when my arms are extended. There are some good videos about it on YouTube.
There is much more to it than explained in the article. It is a CQB system not a stance. I began training in it because my inoperable rotator cuff injury makes it difficult for me to maintain steadiness when my arms are extended. There are some good videos about it on YouTube.
We have to face that things happen beyond our control. Pushing off with the offside hand while rotating the gun away from the person while gaining control of the gun if possible. You never know what or when things will happen.
The four day defensive hand gun class I've take 5 times (can't make this stuff up) always had one at the ready with the gun out in front held with two hands and pointed down.... the class I took recently that was taught by two LEO's who train other LEO's had you hold the pistol right against your side with the idea this was the place it is the hardest for someone to take it away from you or even redirect it.... this seemed a lot more practical to me... the same as when dealing with a malfunction or reloading this was done with the pistol directly in front of your face not down low... for the simple reason you are technically still looking past the pistol for any danger and seeing what is going on.
Softair or Simunition force on force training will show 90% of people how badly they will fail in any actual encounter. Fortunately it's something you can do with a few friends and a few softairs..
jack black
Hunter
All this is well and dandy.
How many are old fat ,out of shape and sick.
Dreaming of the days when you could actually MOVE AROUND will not help now.
IMHO
Best Wishes
How many are old fat ,out of shape and sick.
Dreaming of the days when you could actually MOVE AROUND will not help now.
IMHO
Best Wishes
Stantheman1986
Single-Sixer
I worked Armed Security at a Power Plant and we did Force on Force training against ex-SF guys who worked for the Dept of Energy
It showed me how chaotic and confusing gunfights are and how easy it is to die, and how hard it is to stop a well trained threat
Also , friendly fire was disturbingly common. An often overlooked aspect is, watching out for the "other good guys with guns" because it's not always easy to tell who is who. You may be on point but you have to worry about the person with 0 skills or training panic dumping a mag of .380 into your back with their Taurus in the chaos of a public shooting
That's why I am adding optics and lasers. I can easily take a head shot at 25yds with my pocket pistol meaning minute of bad guy at 100yds all day. A laser will let me safely take the top off the head in a hostage shot as well. You can adapt and overcome or sink into helplessness. Just a few years ago I had no problem wading into dozens of people wishing me harm now not so much.
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I find YT TacticalHive videos useful. About five weeks ago I took a class and we practiced shooting from retention and then moving back or back and off center acquiring sights and firing a couple of more shots. We started just a bit more than arms distance from the target Years ago I went to Thunder Ranch, Client Smith was the instructor, and we started firing up next to the target, firing at a downward angle and moving back like in the video. Probably not a good time to have a comp on the gun! I more fully appreciated the power of the gun firing and not wanting to be the recipient of those bullets coming out of the gun not all that far from my face. Also it caused me to think that up that close, maybe hands on, a revolver may be a better tool if there is only one BG to deal with.
jack black
Hunter
Where and why would you be killing someone at 25 or 100 yds. out? If you are in law enforcement I could understand .
